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**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah, exactly. There will be a follow-up, okay? That's a promise. That's a promise. Okay. Okay. What would you like from your community? What would you like to see from your users? Is there anything that you want to share with them, for those that are listening? |
**Andrew Rynhard:** \[58:36\] I mean, first of all, I just want to say thank you. I vividly recall - and this is a big thing to say this, because I don't remember yesterday... I think from getting punched in the head for all those years, my memory is not great. But I vividly recall the day that I decided I was gonna pu... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** You had to get it out there. You had to get it out of your system so you could focus on other things. |
**Andrew Rynhard:** Exactly. Exactly. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** That's a legit reason. |
**Andrew Rynhard:** There you go. Thank you. And so I made a Reddit post, and I went to bed, and the next day I wake up with all kinds of notifications. It's on the front page of Hacker News, and it's just like "Wow!" I genuinely thought people were gonna say, "This guy is out of his mind. Why would he create this? Thi... |
So first of all, just thank you to everybody for making that happen. And also, our community has been really great on Slack. I think I've only had to kick one person out, ever. And that was relatively recently, and we've had the community going well for four years now. Everyone's helpful, they want to help each other..... |
**Steve Francis:** No, I'm super-appreciative of the community. We seem to have reached the point where there's enough of a community now - there's 1,400 people on Slack, or whatever, and they help each other out. They give really good, detailed answers, and they take the time, and there's a lot of people that have don... |
**Andrew Rynhard:** Yes. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah. Well, that was part of the reason why we're doing this, because I thought you were onto something... And it took me awhile to make time to dig into it, and then take my time to properly look into Omni, go through my \[unintelligible 01:01:27.23\] a few nights. That was really hard. On macOS Mont... |
**Andrew Rynhard:** Yeah. We appreciate that. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Thank you, Andrew, thank you, Steve, for taking the time, for sharing the philosophy of Talos, some of the stories, what is coming next... And I cannot wait, I cannot wait to see the next 6 months, the next 12 months, and just to see how far my own bare metal cluster running Talos gets. Thank you. |
**Andrew Rynhard:** I'm looking forward to it. Thank you. |
**Steve Francis:** Hopefully, it'll last as long as your board does. \[laughter\] |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah. Well, we will tell the story. Let's see what happens. Thank you both. Have a great start to the new year, because it is the new year when this comes out... I mean, this is -- we're actually recording this before Christmas... A little bit like backstage info. Merry Christmas to everyone, but agai... |
• Discussion on Lars Wikman's unchanged operational setup since June 2021 |
• Recap of past episode "Why Kubernetes" and the follow-up with Gerhard Lazu |
• Lars' nuanced feelings about Kubernetes, considering its complexity and mystery |
• Current take on Kubernetes landscape and cloud-native technologies |
• Comparison of various tools and platforms, including k3s, ArgoCD, and Fly |
• Exploration of production setup, including operating system, packages, CI/CD, and server choices |
• Lars' experience with client projects using Fly and GitLab for platform engineering |
• Discussion on the trade-offs between layering and packaging deployment aspects into the app itself |
• The simplicity of certain programming languages like Go and Elixir in handling load and scaling |
• Challenges with Node.js in terms of scaling and CPU-bound loads |
• Comparison of programming languages for machine learning and AI tasks |
• Deployment artifacts and strategies, including use of containers and SCP (Secure Copy Protocol) |
• Importance of knowing which hash is being pushed to production environments |
• Backup strategy and disaster recovery |
• Monitoring and alerting for production environments |
• Blue/green deployment on single machines with minimal setup |
• Orchestrating releases with CI/CD pipelines and artifact management |
• Hot code reloading and upgrading running versions of the application |
• Balancing monolithic architecture with operational concerns |
• Discussion on running a monolithic architecture with external systems interacting with it |
• Importance of simplicity in deployment and operations for smaller teams and organizations |
• Concerns about choosing Kubernetes or other widely-used tools as they may not provide a competitive advantage |
• The value of taking chances and making decisions that go against common practices, such as Apple's approach to shipping half-finished features |
• Personal experiences with tooling and deployment methods, including using Fly.io for cloud deployments |
• Considering bare metal or dedicated servers over cloud-native options for certain projects |
• Exploring the idea of building a system without persistent data storage for an art project, using Erlang hot code updates |
• Hot code updates and their challenges |
• Trade-offs between automation and manual configuration |
• Importance of clear documentation for system setup and operation |
• Balancing complexity with maintainability and understandability |
• Staying within one's comfort zone and familiar ecosystem |
• Challenges of deploying systems in different programming languages |
• Discussion of Dagger and its potential benefits for building SDKs in various languages |
• Elixir as a preferred language for CI/CD tooling and its limitations when used with YAML |
• Kubernetes and its complexities, including the need to reconcile declarative systems with operational requirements |
• Preference for using Linux due to comfort and familiarity, but acknowledging that other systems (e.g. BSDs) may have advantages in certain areas |
• Discussion of systemd as a complex system that can be difficult to use effectively |
• Mention of exploring new tools and technologies, including the use of non-Linux operating systems (e.g. FreeBSD) |
• Introduction of DCH Dave Cottlehuber, an expert in operational systems who works with FreeBSD and has experience with CouchDB. |
• The danger of going off the beaten path with technology and tools |
• The example of NixOS, PureScript, Haskell, OCaml, and other niche programming languages/systems |
• The importance of not over-introducing new technology at once |
• The need to balance challenging oneself with the potential risks of incompatibility |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Hey, Lars. What is new? |
**Lars Wikman:** Oh hey, Gerhard. I don't know that there's a lot that's new for me. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay. |
**Lars Wikman:** I'm mostly doing the same things I was doing the last time I was on the show. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Right. So what is new in the world of development, in your world of development, since June 2021, which was the last time that you were on the show? ...on Ship It. Not kaizen. Kaizen is a special. |
**Lars Wikman:** Yeah. When I was on Changelog and talked about ID3 tags, that's a little bit different than Ship It... But yeah. All in all, I haven't changed much of sort of my operational stuff. So you did a lot of work to try to get me into k3s, and ArgoCD, and things... And it was very interesting. It didn't chang... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Very interesting. I think it's interesting that it didn't change. Okay. Okay. So in June 2021 we had episode seven. The title was "Why Kubernetes", and we did a follow-up, where I joined you on your stream, on your YouTube stream, and we went through k3s and ArgoCD, deploying with k3s and ArgoCD. And ... |
**Lars Wikman:** With the amount of effort you put into your presentation... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I know, right? It took a while. |
**Lars Wikman:** ...I was obliged. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** And that's something which caught my attention. So you wrote, "After the show, I primarily have more nuanced feelings about the whole thing. I see advantages to this approach, but I would say I still see too much mystery and magic in it for my taste. Things are doing stuff and I have no idea what's wh... |
**Lars Wikman:** I would definitely dig into it if I felt I had workloads that required it. So if I was managing hundreds of nodes, I don't know that there are a ton of other tools worth looking at. Because most of the effort in the world of ops is going into wrangling things with that particular ecosystem and toolset.... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah, ArgoCD as well. Both. Yeah. |
**Lars Wikman:** that's not generally what I'm looking for when I'm looking for a specific tool, because that's not what I'm running. But there are cases where I would certainly reach for it. And I think the k3s kind of option is the closest one that I might reach for for something I want to run. If I have more complex... |
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