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**Justin Garrison:** Even if US East one goes down, half the world stops. I don't know. |
**Marc Boorshtein:** Well, that's a little bit different, but just from the bytes going across the wire... I think at one point - I want to say it was sometime around 2010 - there was a threshold cross where there was enough cable infrastructure and backbone around the world that if somebody severed the US from the phy... |
So people became less reliant on this idea of a backbone network. Commercial services became more and more important to government services... And so more and more of our applications started running on the internet, including some of our critical public safety applications, or SaaS solutions on the internet. Also, the... |
So that was the main driver to say "You know what? We're going to move from everything stored as manifests inside the API server, to GitOps. So that way we can have these two instances of this environment in two different regions, that could survive an outage of the NCR net." |
**Justin Garrison:** But GitOps isn't a requirement, because you can have two DevOps in two different regions with a Git repo that pushes both places, right? |
**Marc Boorshtein:** \[40:01\] You could, but this is the way we wanted to do it. We wanted to be able to say "Here's our manifest", because if we need to rebuild this system quickly, we want to be able to say "Here are all the manifests. It's ready to go", without necessarily saying -- we're not using like a Terraform... |
**Justin Garrison:** Does Azure have the -- I literally do not know this. Do they have like a GovCloud sort of thing, like AWS does? Is that where you're running this? |
**Marc Boorshtein:** No. It's all commercial. |
**Justin Garrison:** It's all commercial. |
**Marc Boorshtein:** Yeah, it's all commercial. |
**Justin Garrison:** As a group building something that is very sensitive, information-sensitive and critical to a lot of people's livelihoods, I guess... I mean, just in general, this is emergency sort of services... How have all of the security vulnerabilities of Azure impacted you over the -- I mean, you've been the... |
**Marc Boorshtein:** We've been there since 2020. So we've been there for about four years. |
**Justin Garrison:** Right. Which - they haven't gotten less over time. And I'm kind of curious, how does that impact what you're doing? Because if you're not in a special cloud environment -- like, you can protect all you want about your applications, but if the underlying... There was literally just like, you can rea... |
**Marc Boorshtein:** We haven't really been impacted by any of the Azure-specific security... Like, the Cosmo one didn't impact us. The log4j was a big one for us, because we're Java-based... That was a weird day, because I've got other contracts inside the county that use us... And I got up and I started looking at Tw... |
**Justin Garrison:** I mean, you're running Java and Kubernetes. This is a pretty good service area. |
**Marc Boorshtein:** I'm not accepting any hate for Java and Kubernetes. It works beautifully. |
**Autumn Nash:** Thank you. Tell him. Tell, him. |
**Marc Boorshtein:** Yeah. Java, Kubernetes, okay? They love each other. |
**Autumn Nash:** See? I like Marc. |
**Marc Boorshtein:** Yeah, we're cool. |
**Autumn Nash:** He understands me. |
**Marc Boorshtein:** And we as a company, Tremolo, we've been doing the whole SBOM thing since way before it was popular. Our releases going back at least seven or eight years, our goal is always to have goose eggs on the scanners when we cut a release. It doesn't stay that way more than 30 seconds, but at least we try... |
No, the pain that we tend to have when it comes to Azure is they change stuff all the goddamn time, and they're constantly deprecating things. A template that I use to deploy an AKS cluster within a year is completely unusable. And they just have this tendency to make these breaking changes... |
\[44:08\] And it's not like Kubernetes itself that's the problem. It's like "Oh, well, we're changing the way we're doing log aggregation to this thing." And it's like "I just want to run a Kubernetes cluster. Can I just run a Kubernetes cluster? Is that okay?" And they're constantly making those small types of changes... |
I'm doing a talk next week in Salt Lake City, and I need a Kubernetes cluster. And I've got all these free Azure credits... I went to launch it, and I couldn't access my ingress controller. I couldn't access ingress NGINX. It wasn't a network policy. It was just, you know, KubeNet, so there was no policies to be had. I... |
**Justin Garrison:** You're saying that the failed AWS designers are Azure's -- |
**Marc Boorshtein:** Yeah. |
**Justin Garrison:** Wooh... |
**Marc Boorshtein:** I know. And I don't like tossing shade, but... So I'll give you an example. We use Azure Secret Manager. And on the AWS side, I'm a big fan of Param Store. And Param Store - it's got kind of a clunky interface, but as long as you know how to do the path-based process, you can narrow it down, and it... |
**Autumn Nash:** That's a spicy take, but I can't wait to see how this is going to turn out, because it's not going to be good. Like, if that's how you feel now, give it six months, because the other one is not going to be better... |
**Marc Boorshtein:** Yeah. So Azure has definitely had a lot of challenges. One thing I will give Azure big props on - so we're using their MySQL database, and they needed us to migrate from one offering to their new offering. And we don't have a large database, but it's kind of critical data. So I'm trying to figure o... |
And I will say, I was not expecting that based on past experience, and they knocked that -- that migration, it did exactly what they said it was going to do. It did a one-time migration, plus live data, so we were able to get the whole thing up and running... And then we were able to pick a date to do the cutover, and ... |
**Autumn Nash:** You were like zero confidence. You were like "I had no hope, but y'all pulled it off." |
**Marc Boorshtein:** I had none. "Y'all did a great job." And the only reason why we had downtime was my own stupidity. I made a mistake. Otherwise we would have had zero downtime. It was beautiful. |
**Break**: \[47:52\] |
**Justin Garrison:** How is -- the applications you're running... Because this is more than just identity now, right? Is this still focused on identity for those districts, for first responders, or is this beyond that? |
**Marc Boorshtein:** So we've got a couple of other apps in there that we manage. So the main one is an open unison instance that does the identity side, plus the portal. So that's the main application. We have a Mattermost; it's a kind of a Slack clone. We rolled that out. We call it regional chat. I love it, I think ... |
**Justin Garrison:** But Office 365 is right there. What's the -- |
**Marc Boorshtein:** No... |
**Justin Garrison:** You're running your email server in 2024. |
**Autumn Nash:** Everybody that can't see Justin's face... Before he said that shade, the smile on his face was so big. For context... Before he even got it all the way out, he was like mid laugh. The smile was like half of his face. |
**Justin Garrison:** I'm trying to understand. You're like "Oh, Teams is over there." But also, you have Office 365. There's some email servers. |
**Marc Boorshtein:** No, you're more correct than you think. |
**Autumn Nash:** He wasn't trying to understand. He led you into the shade. He was like "Come walk with me." |
**Marc Boorshtein:** Oh, no. I went willingly. I knew that was coming. I wanted to see if y'all called me on it. |
**Justin Garrison:** What's the email server? What are you running? You're a dev company? |
**Autumn Nash:** Wait, wait... Marc was like "I went willingly. I was so down. Like, I can't with y'all." |
**Marc Boorshtein:** So, okay, there's a story here. So SharePoint is now SharePoint Online, right? So one of our largest customers for this service is a regional SharePoint system that we have provided SSO for for five or six years. It was an on-prem system. And we had to do some fun stuff to make that work. Well, the... |
**Justin Garrison:** Yeah, no, this is like day one. Don't run your own SharePoint server. |
**Marc Boorshtein:** Right. And this is the second iteration. So they wanted to move to SharePoint Online. When you do SSO -- so Azure has this concept of B2B, company to company, doing some kind of SSO, and B2C, company to customer. Well, we're an SSO system, right? We're an identity aggregation system. So in theory, ... |
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