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\[54:08\] The second issue is the U.S. federal government. So I mentioned that we're running in a commercial tenant. So is the SharePoint. Feds do not run in commercial tenants, and you cannot invite a guest into your tenant if you're commercial. |
That is government. So we had two issues that we had to deal with. One, we don't just maintain a broker with other identity systems, we also maintain what are called external accounts. So maybe you're a contractor, maybe you're working for an NGO, a non-governmental organization, but that works with governments, that y... |
Now, we integrate with the federal government, so we can authenticate any U.S. federal user. So the question was how do we get Azure to recognize us as an identity provider? The other thing that we ran into that's a technical issue is you can say to Microsoft "Hey, for tremolosecurity.com, go SAML to them." The problem... |
So what we ended up having to do was for U.S. federal users and these external users that don't have jurisdiction accounts, we had to create an email domain alias that would be recognized. So we run an email service... We had to completely re-architect everything to make sure it was isolated. But we run an email forwar... |
So we ended up going to AWS and saying "Okay, well, we'll forward everything to SES", and that solved the problem, because now we were able to rewrite it with all the right headers and everything, and then it went up to SES. |
**Justin Garrison:** Is this actually like a VM running an email server, or are you forwarding this to the -- because you need that trust, right? Email has this huge network of "What IP address am I receiving this on? Are you spam or not?" Because it just gets abused. It's just an open thing that's on the internet. And... |
**Marc Boorshtein:** \[57:56\] It's a bit of a Rube Goldberg. It works really well. Once we got the whole "Okay, we can't send the emails ourselves. |
We have to go through an SES-like service to send it out." And once we got that and all the headers and everything figured out, it works beautifully. But no, it's a container that runs in cluster. We've got everything locked down with network policies. And that particular container has no service account. So it's got n... |
**Justin Garrison:** But I mean, they have the emails that flow through. |
**Marc Boorshtein:** Yeah, the emails flow through... |
**Justin Garrison:** Which is like the thing that people would probably want from that. |
**Marc Boorshtein:** The only thing that it is is it's notifications. It's "Hey, you've been invited to this tenant. Somebody updated this doc." |
It's not like a general purpose. |
**Justin Garrison:** But, I mean, you're collecting email addresses of where -- not necessarily SES would know where it's going... |
**Marc Boorshtein:** Well, an email address on its own doesn't really count as PII, because it's not associated with anything. You have to have - I think it's three pieces. |
**Justin Garrison:** Yeah. And I think going all the way back full circle to this -- email's not a good identity. We've used it as identity for so long. It's like... |
**Marc Boorshtein:** No. It's a terrible identity. |
**Justin Garrison:** Yeah. And that is one of the problems that - yeah, this thing has to exist somewhere, because that is like the still method of getting information to someone in some form... We don't have another system that does that. But also, it should not be your identity at all. |
**Marc Boorshtein:** No, never. And I always talk about, to everybody that'll listen - do not use email address. It's an anti-pattern. Names change all the time, for a bazillion different reasons. |
**Justin Garrison:** Yeah. Domains change, and all that. |
**Marc Boorshtein:** Domain \[unintelligible 00:59:52.00\] People change their names. It's not that uncommon of a thing. It's a pretty common thing, in a lot of different contexts. |
**Autumn Nash:** Dude, nobody talks about the fact of when you get divorced and then you change your name... You can't change your email, so you're just stuck with it forever. |
**Justin Garrison:** You're stuck with that. Yeah. |
**Autumn Nash:** Yes. It's so annoying. I'm like "I guess I could redirect it", but it would be such a pain in the butt. And you have to have so many logins... It's such a bad idea. |
**Marc Boorshtein:** So there's name changes for that, there's transition... There's a bazillion -- people just say "I don't want this name anymore." Names are a terrible way. Human names are a terrible way for computers to identify \[unintelligible 01:00:31.26\] |
**Justin Garrison:** I didn't even pick my name, right? My parents decided it was a good name. |
**Autumn Nash:** Exactly. |
**Marc Boorshtein:** Exactly. There are a lot of people who say "I don't want the name that my parents gave me." And who the hell am I to tell them no? It's a terrible identifier. |
**Justin Garrison:** So you're in Azure, you've got GitOps going... What's next for the system? What are the new improvements? What are you looking at for the next five years? |
**Marc Boorshtein:** Oh, five years... |
**Justin Garrison:** I mean, we don't have to talk about all five years, but in general, what's the thing that you're going towards? |
**Marc Boorshtein:** We're in a pretty steady state right now. We're always adding new applications. The big thing that I really want to do - so Open Unison has two ways that you can configure it. The legacy way, which is XML embedded in the container, and the new way... And it's not really that new; we've done it for ... |
**Justin Garrison:** Custom resource definitions, for anyone -- |
**Marc Boorshtein:** Yeah, custom resource definitions. Exactly. So today, I've got different variations of Open Unison for different roles inside the system. I've got an identity provider, I've got a provisioning system... I used to have a -- those are the only two roles we have anymore. We used to have a virtual dire... |
\[01:01:52.02\] So those are their own codebases, that if I want to make a change, I've got to run a build, generate a new container, push that container out, test it out, and then move it over. And that's a long cycle. That could take a couple minutes to go through that long cycle. In which case now I start looking at... |
So what I would ideally love to do is convert that to the way that most people run Open Unison today, where there's this one base container and everything gets pulled in dynamically as a CRD. It's hot... It's not just awesome, but it's live, right? I make a change and Open Unison is itself an operator, so it sees the c... |
So that would be where I'd like to go in the future. Right now we're in the process of changing our interface, which I'm really happy about, because we have had the same bootstrap-based interface for like 10 years almost... And we're switching to -- if anybody who's listening uses... |
**Justin Garrison:** It's like Bootstrap V2? |
**Marc Boorshtein:** No, we're switching to a nice, beautiful, Material-based UI. We rewrote the Open Unison UI to use React with Material. |
**Autumn Nash:** If I ever have to do frontend, like React, Material is my favorite. It's the only one that doesn't give me full hives. It is the best. |
**Marc Boorshtein:** It was an adjustment for me, because I'm not a frontend developer by trade... But I like it. And it's just fast. I'd never realized how slow and clunky our old interface was, until I started using the React-based one. I was like "Oh my God, this is so quick." |
**Autumn Nash:** It also is very user-friendly. It makes more sense to my brain than a lot of the other frontend ways of doing things. |
**Marc Boorshtein:** Yeah. So that's going to be the next major project, is finishing up the interface revamp. We're already pretty bleeding edge on a lot of things... We've already externalized our secrets management. I'd like to switch. Right now we're using CSI Secret Provider. I want to switch to External Secrets O... |
**Justin Garrison:** If it's a file... |
**Marc Boorshtein:** Yeah. And so External Secret Operator removes that step, so we're probably going to move to that at some point. So that'll be a big deal. And then whatever new infrastructure people come up with next. If it turns out to be better than Kubernetes... We've been around now for a decade; we've gotten t... |
**Justin Garrison:** You're like "It works because I'm good." |
**Marc Boorshtein:** Yeah. This isn't easy. So yeah... So let's see what the infrastructure world comes out with next. |
**Justin Garrison:** Marc, thank you so much for coming on the show. I have one last question for you... Are you using Flux or Argo? |
**Marc Boorshtein:** Argo. |
**Justin Garrison:** Argo. Okay. |
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