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[2275.88 --> 2280.60] various language programming and stuff like that it's just like oh well like well you're learning ruby on |
[2280.60 --> 2284.94] rails so you must know ruby right it's like well like maybe i'm a beginner and you have to balance |
[2284.94 --> 2289.48] that like how much do i need to teach someone from scratch and how much can i just assume that they |
[2289.48 --> 2293.50] know and it's like there's a lot of times like i've helped people that were getting into tech and |
[2293.50 --> 2297.78] they're like i don't know what the command line is i don't know where i'm typing and what i'm doing |
[2297.78 --> 2302.58] i'm like okay well let's start at the very basics of like what is a command line and not assume you |
[2302.58 --> 2307.82] know what even a command and output and exit codes are and like that's just a different way of like okay |
[2307.82 --> 2312.22] but we don't need to put that necessarily in the docs for everyone because then it just becomes |
[2312.22 --> 2316.90] very about like okay well you know a long time ago we made computers right like we made a processor |
[2316.90 --> 2321.92] and like like this like let's let's figure out like how much context can is relevant to what we're |
[2321.92 --> 2326.00] trying to do and where are people starting and trying to bring people into that and so i do think |
[2326.00 --> 2331.62] that it's interesting taking this scorecard approach of how do we get someone to contribute to a |
[2331.62 --> 2335.38] open source especially from cyber security because cyber security people trying to get into |
[2335.38 --> 2340.64] cyber security or do more just like learning around what cyber security is getting an industry |
[2340.64 --> 2346.28] is not generally an open source friendly community and every job is like you need three years of |
[2346.28 --> 2353.10] experience but how you know exactly and being able to give them this starting point of here's some |
[2353.10 --> 2358.54] things that are generally best practices and we say you have to have or should have these things like |
[2358.54 --> 2362.30] pin dependency even if they don't know why do i need a pin dependency like how does that help with |
[2362.30 --> 2366.88] security doesn't actually matter right here but also that's a jumping point for someone to go down |
[2366.88 --> 2371.64] that rabbit hole and go learn about stuff you know oh this thing is i can fix this now let me go figure |
[2371.64 --> 2375.82] out what it is and then google it and then learn about it and then when they fix it you're going to |
[2375.82 --> 2380.24] remember that more than if you just googled something and just had to read it in a textbook because |
[2380.24 --> 2384.86] your brain had to go search that then you had to go fix it then you had to learn about it you know |
[2384.86 --> 2389.74] what i mean so that's just it's so much better of a learning opportunity yeah and being giving someone |
[2389.74 --> 2395.50] new a place to start with how to do something not why sometimes is important because you just need |
[2395.50 --> 2399.68] to like i just need to try it first i need to do something and then i can go back and figure out |
[2399.68 --> 2404.82] like oh why did i do that what was that relevant to why did that matter also it gains confidence like |
[2404.82 --> 2410.50] i think a lot of times in tech you like you spend all this time researching and doing theory and |
[2410.50 --> 2416.08] learning in classes but the actual like i think people especially women already have imposter syndrome |
[2416.08 --> 2420.92] you know and i feel like when you get to actually go and solve a problem and do things it helps you |
[2420.92 --> 2426.76] to be more confident when you get a job or you're in that meeting or to have an opinion so i think like |
[2426.76 --> 2433.94] getting like the chance to build those like small wins even for yourself you know helps you to like |
[2433.94 --> 2440.72] be in this industry you know chris you were mentioning early on that open ssf is about securing the |
[2440.72 --> 2447.48] supply chain of software and how does this specifically how do scorecards tie into that |
[2447.48 --> 2452.20] why is this an important piece of a supply chain because like supply chains are generally like |
[2452.20 --> 2457.94] hashes built on hashes that are secure to like no i can go back to the point of commits or whatever |
[2457.94 --> 2463.40] code i'm running was authored and and made sure that that's the actual thing i'm running is the thing |
[2463.40 --> 2470.08] that they committed how does this tie into that it's a piece to the puzzle and if you go and take a look |
[2470.08 --> 2477.76] at open ssf then there's a whole bunch of other projects there uh which are related to how we we |
[2477.76 --> 2483.52] have things flowing through the software supply chain and how we can attest to the security of them |
[2483.52 --> 2490.72] and measure that so things like software bill of materials and signing artifacts and stuff like that |
[2490.72 --> 2496.16] come into play with some of the other projects but when we look at the scorecard itself i think it |
[2496.16 --> 2501.46] kind of directly relates to it in two ways so we were just talking about dependency pinning that's |
[2501.46 --> 2506.66] one of the things that it's pushing you to do that's pinning against shards not just against |
[2506.66 --> 2514.32] semvers so you're absolutely stating that this is intended to work with that particular version |
[2514.32 --> 2520.06] of a dependency the problem with that is it creates a whole bunch of toil so you know dependencies |
[2520.06 --> 2525.80] are changing under our feet at a frightening pace something like python cryptography i think i've |
[2525.80 --> 2532.64] seen four bumps to that in the last week or so and it's followed a pattern of so there's been two cves |
[2532.64 --> 2538.50] where it's become a known vulnerability to be stuck on the on the old version because there's been |
[2538.50 --> 2545.88] buffer overflows or whatever but then there's then been a sort of follow-up patch of oh yeah that security |
[2545.88 --> 2550.38] fix broke something else for a whole bunch of corner cases that our tests weren't covering |
[2550.38 --> 2555.66] before now but people complained and we figured out what was going wrong and so there's another patch |
[2555.66 --> 2562.66] you know we've now fixed the tests as well so this stuff can be fast moving and and staying on top of |
[2562.66 --> 2569.44] it is a bunch of work the other way it kind of relates to the supply chain is what autumn was talking |
[2569.44 --> 2574.70] about earlier it's like as you're choosing things that you're going to depend on if you're seeing the scorecard |
[2574.70 --> 2581.00] there then that's giving you a measure of the quality of attention being paid to security in |
[2581.00 --> 2587.56] that project and so if you do have a choice and you know quite often when we're picking packages |
[2587.56 --> 2592.94] there may be very little choice you find the one package that does the thing and everybody's |
[2592.94 --> 2598.24] depending on that but other cases you do have a choice and that might be one of the things that |
[2598.24 --> 2602.78] leans you one way or the other you mentioned a couple things there on this being a piece of the puzzle |
[2602.78 --> 2608.06] where looking at this test output i don't see anything about signed artifacts and i don't see |
[2608.06 --> 2613.26] anything about some of those other things that are more downstream because this is focused strictly on |
[2613.26 --> 2617.62] the repository how's the repository managed it how the code is managed not necessarily |
[2617.62 --> 2623.14] how we're distributing artifacts right so like there's different tooling in different ways that |
[2623.14 --> 2627.84] we should be verifying that outside of what the scorecard is going to do so signed artifacts is |
[2627.84 --> 2635.00] absolutely one of the checks and there's a little tool that got published uh in the last week or so |
[2635.00 --> 2643.02] uh from one of the um linux foundation folk um where you can point it at your scorecard and it'll show |
[2643.02 --> 2649.80] you a radar plot of the the different scores and where they came from and so signed artifacts is in there |
[2649.80 --> 2655.56] that's one of the places that our repos are sort of zeros at the moment because most of them were |
[2655.56 --> 2662.14] not signing artifacts and we're not doing that because in in many cases there's not actually a |
[2662.14 --> 2668.54] mature signed artifact consumption mechanism on the other side of that to actually make it worthwhile |
[2668.54 --> 2675.76] doing for the consumer perspective of the artifact so things like python artifact signing is actually at |
[2675.76 --> 2680.26] the maturity where it's worth doing and somebody might actually be implementing checking the |
[2680.26 --> 2686.50] signatures but something like dart that's less of a thing in in that ecosystem at the moment so |
[2686.50 --> 2693.42] not quite as relevant yeah if we kind of look at both sides of it here is you know are you looking at the |
[2693.42 --> 2699.32] dependencies coming in and the quality of those and are you looking at what you're creating and how that |
[2699.32 --> 2706.20] might be somebody else's dependency and the level of assurance that you can pass into that next link |
[2706.20 --> 2711.20] in the chain and i probably don't have any sort of signing in my output because i have no artifacts |
[2711.20 --> 2715.94] i'm guessing too like there's you know we can skip over some of those tests if we're not actually |
[2715.94 --> 2721.46] consuming or yeah it's like oh you know what like let's not run that i also think that's interesting |
[2721.46 --> 2726.32] though because you know especially when they always say that like startups and innovations and new |
[2726.32 --> 2732.02] things are built when tech is in a downturn right and i wonder if like things like this where we're |
[2732.02 --> 2736.54] talking about best practices and how you said there's no mature tool on the other side i wonder |
[2736.54 --> 2741.94] if that also starts like innovation like hey like people notice like this doesn't we don't have |
[2741.94 --> 2747.44] something for this let's go build it you know or like if that kind of influences that kind of like |
[2747.44 --> 2752.94] when we see holes for like use cases and problems and then we go make solutions for them you know |
[2752.94 --> 2758.98] there's so much happening in that space at the moment and it all to an extent flows from |
[2758.98 --> 2766.22] an executive order and i know there was many years of work done by some dedicated practitioners in the |
[2766.22 --> 2771.42] security space to get to the executive order in the first place but now there's an executive order |
[2771.42 --> 2777.92] mandating federal agencies to get a software bill of materials with the software that they're |
[2777.92 --> 2783.82] acquiring the purpose of that is really to draw attention to known vulnerabilities in software |
[2783.82 --> 2789.58] that's being acquired by the federal government but of course the people doing the supplying here |
[2789.58 --> 2796.08] are having to step up and create the mechanics to create those software bills of material and then |
[2796.08 --> 2801.30] there's also a whole bunch of tooling arriving so that you can look into your software bill of material |
[2801.30 --> 2806.78] and see what are the known vulnerabilities and maybe there weren't any yesterday but there could be today |
[2806.78 --> 2813.54] so you know your vulnerability fields feeds being run against your already known stuff in your |
[2813.54 --> 2822.30] environment and i think sophisticated organizations are already starting to implement processes and tools |
[2822.30 --> 2831.20] around consuming that stuff but it is so early days so for the bulk of the industry it's going to be |
[2831.20 --> 2836.76] years before this is commonplace but it will come and there's a whole bunch of work to be |
[2836.76 --> 2844.14] done to make it happen across the huge variety of programming languages and infrastructure and |
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