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**Justin Garrison:** You mentioned using things like S3 and RDS now. The components of Gitea require, or at least want an external database, some sort of storage for artifacts... But I'm assuming the Git files aren't stored in S3, right? Are those still like on disk somewhere? |
**Matti Ranta:** Technically, Gitea doesn't need an external database. You can just use a SQLite file. You don't need -- even a reverse proxy will handle \[unintelligible 00:22:13.08\] cert renewal, and everything. But we have these areas of the software that allow you to kind of like roll with whatever you have. If yo... |
**Justin Garrison:** It's a lot of file reads. It is a lot of file reads. |
**Autumn Nash:** And a lot of storage. |
**Matti Ranta:** And even like the repo homepage, if you're just browsing the homepage, it's the Ceph files, and then the latest commit. For each files you can see the last time it was updated, what the last commit message for the file was, so you can just have some added context when browsing around the repository. Ea... |
And one of the things in the roadmap for Gitea is being able to separate out the repositories to different nodes. Because right now you need one disk, and it reads from that one disk. So instead of just having that one disk, we would be able to have a clustered option. So if you want repo A, you can talk to node A, and... |
**Justin Garrison:** As like just an external storage server? It's just like "Here, just handle these files"? |
**Matti Ranta:** \[24:17\] Yeah. So you'd be scaling out with additional hosts. And that would reduce some of the latency concerns, because you're still reading all that information from disk, and you need to read just exactly what you need from the Git files and pass it over. So the list of files in the repository, th... |
**Autumn Nash:** Are you the only maintainer for this project? Or are you just for the infrastructure? |
**Matti Ranta:** Just for the gitea.com infrastructure. We have close to 50 community maintainers of the software project, 44,000 GitHub stars, I think maybe 70,000 registered users on gitea.com, with a significant number of repositories... |
**Autumn Nash:** Why do people pick you over GitHub? Is like the main, I guess, value prop, the fact that you are the open source version of GitHub, and you're not a corporate entity? Or let's say that I was in the market to switch my repositories from GitHub to Gitea. Are all the git commands generally the same, and u... |
**Matti Ranta:** Git is completely the same, push, pull, \[unintelligible 00:25:47.02\] and the experience is similar with pull requests. There's some things with our project Kanban boards, where GitHub is introducing their new project interface, as well as implementing AI \[unintelligible 00:26:05.11\] And there is a ... |
**Justin Garrison:** I think that's a really interesting proposition about Gitea as a product is pluggable, as far as like it's a single container that can do all this stuff locally for my house, right? If I'm the only user of it, and I want a web interface and some nice runners or whatever internally at my house, I co... |
**Autumn Nash:** \[28:13\] It is interesting that there are different options in how they contrast... Because I think people usually start with GitHub, you know... And there's so much documentation and so many, I guess, draws to get people to start there... But GitLab is its own component, and definitely a contender...... |
**Justin Garrison:** You said "get" a lot in that sentence. That was great. |
**Autumn Nash:** Well, because I think people also don't -- like, when you first start out, you don't realize that GitHub and Git are two different things. So then people get to focus on not the infrastructure instance, but just learning the actual Git that you need to know to do that, right? And then learning the cont... |
**Justin Garrison:** And I think that the business model here of Gitea and GitHub are extremely different, where every time I've worked with GitHub, they always want you to use the hosted version of GitHub, whether that's a private \[unintelligible 00:29:30.28\] I've never worked at a place that had an up to date GitHu... |
**Autumn Nash:** Well, I feel like that's kind of the difference between corporate America and open source. One - they need you to use their product, because if not, it's not cost-efficient to run a product, right? And then the other one, it's usually built out of a need, a want, or wanting to do better, you know... Be... |
**Justin Garrison:** But just the fact that Gitea really wants you just to go run your own. You make it as simple as possible to "Please just go run it, and own that side of it." And looking even at your product page, there's an enterprise version, there's a hosted version... You don't have to actually maintain the ser... |
**Autumn Nash:** What was your motivation for wanting people to be able to run their own? Because I think that's the interesting component, right? Everybody is so used to not running their own, and then you're giving this away... What made you feel like that was important to be able to give people access to that abilit... |
**Matti Ranta:** Yeah, definitely. I mean, philosophically, free and open source software is... It just makes sense, I guess. Being able to see the code of the things, and be able to work with it... It's just like when you buy a car, you can make modifications to the engine, and do that. If you own a house, you can lik... |
**Justin Garrison:** Not yet. It's 2024... There are some bulbs that do require subscriptions... |
**Autumn Nash:** Also, it's wild... Just stuff like the fact that heated seats is becoming something that companies can charge after you bought the car... Who knows at this point...? |
**Matti Ranta:** \[31:43\] Exactly, yeah. It's just like being able to actually see what you're running, and have full control over that. So that's why I went in with the open source mindset, and being involved in other open source projects as well, and contributing for quite a long time... It just made sense. And prev... |
**Justin Garrison:** And still, the main thing that you have that's different is you don't want people to use gitea.com. It's there, it's available, but really, you want people to go run it themselves, or have a hosted version of some sort... But the flagship version is there to show people how it can work, right? It's... |
**Matti Ranta:** No, you can definitely rely on this. We do have limitations on users who sign up right now, but we're looking at opening it up even more, because -- there's several indie games that are building on it because you need a ton of storage for indie game. You have your video game assets, and they don't nece... |
**Autumn Nash:** Can you explain the difference in your limits between you and GitHub and GitLab? |
**Matti Ranta:** Yeah, so with video game development you don't want to store binary files in Git, because when you try to version those, it basically just stores a copy every time you make a change... Which even if it's just like you're storing a Word documents, which - documents are technically ZIPs. If you change a ... |
**Justin Garrison:** It stands for Large File System, or Large File Storage... |
**Matti Ranta:** Yeah, Large File Storage. |
**Autumn Nash:** It is both brilliant and very picky. It can either -- it makes your life both easier, and so painful, but it serves a purpose, for sure. |
**Matti Ranta:** Yeah. And it's great, because just like how with -- this is a terrible example, but I'm gonna use it anyway... With NFTs on the blockchain - you're not even actually storing an image on the blockchain. You're storing a reference pointer to somewhere else, to a URL. And that's what Git LFS does, is you'... |
**Autumn Nash:** \[36:02\] When you're building huge binaries, it makes your life so much -- it makes things possible that might not have been, but it is very painful. |
**Justin Garrison:** Having come from or worked at a studio that made a lot of assets... All of the asset revision systems at like animation studios and game studios - it's separate. You store it out of Git as much as you can. You have a separate thing, that's like "We need to version a bunch of assets, and we're going... |
**Autumn Nash:** See, when you're building a language, you need Git LFS, because you need to store like the binaries. But also, you don't want to run a whole binary file every time you upload and like commit, and everything... So it is very important. |
**Justin Garrison:** I was trying to store repos, like package repos in Git LFS... It was a bad idea. It just -- yeah... |
**Autumn Nash:** It's one of those... It's a necessary evil when you need it, but if you don't need it, don't use it. |
**Matti Ranta:** And so our limitations are - like, we have soft limitations on like LFS and our repo sizes. Eventually, when we implement -- if you want to host on gitea.com, instead of getting a managed instance yourself, we'll have like more reset quotas and whatnot.... But right now, it's a lot more friendlier and ... |
**Justin Garrison:** I mean, more people will abuse it, for sure, once you're hitting these limits. If you give someone anything for free, someone's gonna find a way to abuse it. |
**Autumn Nash:** Not just that, but it's wild the way people have abused compute power and storage in weird ways... The most interesting thing about being a developer is making a product and then seeing the ridiculous hoodrat stuff that customers will do with whatever you make... You're just like "I didn't even think o... |
**Matti Ranta:** Yeah, so we're starting to deal with issues of like spam, more heavily involved DDoS, and file hosting, and virus and command control stuff on our site... We've had to build -- I've built some automation around like detections... Because a lot of this \[unintelligible 00:38:54.29\] is pretty easily det... |
\[39:49\] And \[unintelligible 00:39:49.11\] web hook file to get scanned, yes/no, "Maybe somebody should take a look at it." But some stuff that we're discovering is being able to like put onto the roadmap of Gitea itself - detecting username or bio changes. Right now we have database triggers to be able to send "Hey,... |
**Justin Garrison:** It's interesting how those things evolve when and trust your customers, or you work with someone that -- hey, no, I know this person; they worked down the hall, or where they exist in Slack... Versus strangers on the internet, which are probably not real people, and control a device. It's like, you... |
**Autumn Nash:** I think even if you're running something internally, whether you can go up two floors and be like "Dude!" Or if somebody works in another country... It's still different, depending on how big of the scale. But I definitely think something for customers is a whole other level. Like I said, also, it's we... |
**Justin Garrison:** Actually, one of the questions I wanted to ask was was there anything in Gitea's feature set - over eight years you've been running it - that you had to rethink your infrastructure... Like, "Oh, actually, LFS support landed. How are we going to do that?" What were any of the key features that made ... |
**Matti Ranta:** Definitely, LFS was the first big one, because it was just writing to disk right away. And immediately that was -- you can see our repo sizes ballooning, and not being able to scale. And so being able to offload that onto S3 was a savior... Because immediately, those huge files, you can just forget abo... |
**Autumn Nash:** That's actually really smart, to put that in S3, because it's already highly available. |
**Matti Ranta:** Exactly. And then it's LFS, then packages... One of our German maintainers built out our package skeleton of being able to add on support for a bunch of new packages... But he initially \[unintelligible 00:43:22.28\] around like 20 of them. First was like Docker, so you can store Docker in it. Maven, n... |
\[43:56\] And finally, about a year ago was when we implemented our CI/CD, and being able to think about how we were going to implement that in terms of like if you're on a single Node, versus a huge instance of being able to take into account. And luckily, I and a few other maintainers - we are either maintainers or c... |
**Justin Garrison:** Those are Ampere servers at Equinix, and they're super-fun. I just had a chance to do some streams with them, testing my software at work, and... Yeah, it's just like "Oh, I need 256 cores." "Okay." I don't know what I'm gonna do with these, but it's very powerful. |
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