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**Justin Garrison:** And the funny thing here is KilledByGoogle is a GitHub project. You can go PR it to say "Hey, there's another thing that got deprecated." I actually have a PR open still. |
**Autumn Nash:** You can PR it? |
**Justin Garrison:** Yeah, so I'm going to add this customer and see what they say... |
**Autumn Nash:** Justin...! Look, we're gonna change the whole name of this segment to like "Tea with Justin." Or like "When dad jokes go savage." |
**Justin Garrison:** We'll see what they say. I'm gonna go ahead and do that and we'll see. But I mean, again, this is just -- it's something that happens, it's one of those "You don't know until it actually happens to you." |
**Autumn Nash:** \[01:08:07.28\] Look, there's always going to be stuff in software where \*bleep\* happens. But anytime you are deleting something, can we get like a three "Are you sures"? Are you sure-sure? Put Delete in here... |
**Justin Garrison:** And the same defaults from a year ago are not the same defaults from today. And all the assumptions we made a year ago of like "This is safe to do..." It's one of those cases to me that's like when you ship your Bash script to production... This is literally what happened in the outcome, of like "Y... |
**Autumn Nash:** I think this is why processes are important. People put so much focus on code, which obviously we're engineers, we write code. But processes to make sure you go back and are checking things, and making sure -- you know what I mean? You need to make sure that something that you put when you were startin... |
**Justin Garrison:** Observability. |
**Autumn Nash:** Yes! And monitoring... It's so important to see how our customers are using things... And are things still live in production? Like, there's so many -- I don't know, I just feel like how did you not know a company with that much money was running something that was going to deprecate in a year and nobo... |
**Justin Garrison:** It's one of those hidden time bombs inside of an infrastructure. Not even like a cert expiation, because if we think about back in the day... And like we were just talking to Anurag, the thing that filled up or crashed his GKE control plane was logs, right? Like, rotate your logs, folks. This is... |
**Autumn Nash:** It's always crazy stuff like that. Like, with security, do people do something really crazy for most security breaches? Or do they walk in the front door? When it comes to like engineering, it's always like some very small thing that creates a crazy effect. It's partially the game, I guess, but also pr... |
**Justin Garrison:** Yeah. And they did have a backup. I mean, they do point that out in this, that they have a backup. Google worked with them 24/7 for - I forget how many days, to make sure that... |
**Autumn Nash:** Oh, those engineers worked hard. I can't even imagine... Can you imagine getting that page? "We deleted a whole--" |
**Justin Garrison:** Well, if you've never managed a VMware environment... I know the 24/7 over several days \[unintelligible 01:10:36.26\] progress bar of VMware reimporting VMs. Like, that's all you can do. |
**Autumn Nash:** Okay, I just want you to know that your \[unintelligible 01:10:45.01\] level of this episode is my favorite. You're throwing shade at everybody. |
**Justin Garrison:** I have watched enough progress bars in VMware in my life to know that 24/7 is -- yeah, I fell asleep next to the computer. |
**Autumn Nash:** I think this is interesting though, because honestly, I feel like we're going to see more things like this. Not exactly this, but... Let's be real, Broadcom has lost its mind. It's so expensive. And they have cut so many people from VMware that we are going to see a massive exit of customers. And to do... |
**Justin Garrison:** I really, really, really wonder what the world would be like if VMware was open source. If 15 years ago or whatever it was like -- it was a while ago; I don't remember how long ago, but... |
**Autumn Nash:** Also, do you think this is going to change the way that people build and go into like licensing, or just...? I don't know, I feel like things have gotten really very -- when you start talking to different startups, it seems like people really want to be very cloud-agnostic. They want to be able to lift... |
**Justin Garrison:** \[01:12:09.01\] There's two points. There's lift and shift, and there's abstraction. Talking to Render - like, Render is an abstraction. And you don't know, you don't care if your application's running in GCP or AWS. There are abstractions over both, and they say "Here." And they're not even exposi... |
The lift and shift portion is like "I know I need this level of control, and I need to have these primitives available. I need compute, networking, whatever. And I want to be able to move that around." And VMware was that. Literally, my first sysadmin job was like we had VMware, and that's how we actually -- we moved f... |
**Autumn Nash:** It's crazy, because for Oracle used to be so well used. And then I think a lot of the licensing got into like all of that. |
**Justin Garrison:** And people are worried a lot of times of like startups being bought, and then going away... But it's the big companies, too. Like, there was Oracle, and... |
**Autumn Nash:** But it's also kind of like a middle ground, though. You want to be portable, and abstraction, and lift and shift, but also at a certain point in scaling you need to know what's underneath, so you can fix it, right? |
**Justin Garrison:** You need to have access to be able to do that. |
**Autumn Nash:** Yes. |
**Justin Garrison:** For a certain amount of complexity. |
**Autumn Nash:** But you need to know what it is. So not just the access, but you also have the knowledge of what you're running on, what problems you're gonna get into. |
**Justin Garrison:** Yeah. The only worse thing than lock-in is lockout. Like, if I have to be stuck in VMware, but I can't access a piece of it... Like, that's worse for me from being able to do both things. And Kubernetes is that new open framework that a lot of people are going to with containers and everything else... |
**Autumn Nash:** But see, this is interesting, because there are those two -- we're talking about trade-offs here, right? But this trade-off, you're saying we're going from the enterprise-ness, we'll say, but you're going to open source. But if we don't invest in maintaining open source, and we don't invest in the open... |
**Justin Garrison:** And let's not hide the fact that Kubernetes was designed and created by Google and open sourced so that they could disrupt the cloud. |
**Autumn Nash:** Yeah. |
**Justin Garrison:** Like, they literally were behind in the cloud business, so they said "We need everyone else to think like us. And so we are making a thing that works like we do, and we are going to make everyone else use it." |
**Autumn Nash:** Not just that, but when they -- like, Meta was completely honest when they talked about why they open source things... Because when people contribute to it, it helps them to save money. I think it just shows you that importance -- people talk about open source, and it's something they want to do, and i... |
**Justin Garrison:** Yeah. And back to the whole VMware point here - I keep looking at this pattern happen over and over again, where it was Oracle originally, everyone got off Oracle databases, because they were too expensive... It's happening again with VMware, because it was great to go on, it was portable, and we c... |
**Autumn Nash:** And that control changes as you scale, too. |
**Justin Garrison:** Yeah. |
**Autumn Nash:** When you're new, you don't have as many engineers, you're still trying to figure out your skill... So cloud is very, very good for that. And then at some point, it may be cheaper for you to do some things yourself, because you have more experience, and you have more people. |
So I think being open-minded and just learning what you need has got to come back. We've got to stop having absolutes. There's a reason why software engineers say "It depends..." |
**Justin Garrison:** For sure. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. And if you are interested in sharing topics, or have someone that you would like to hear on this show, you can email us at ShipIt \[at\] changelog.com. We do read all the emails, we've been getting feedback and we really enjoy hearing from... |
**Autumn Nash:** I love talking to all the listeners. They are so nice. |
**Justin Garrison:** Yeah, there's also the Changelog Slack if you want to join in. We are in there occasionally, sharing stuff... I'm in the \#Homelab channel, as well as -- |
**Autumn Nash:** There's a Homelab channel that you didn't tell me about? |
**Justin Garrison:** Of course there is. You don't have a homelab, do you? |
**Autumn Nash:** No, but I want one... |
**Justin Garrison:** Well, we can start. So... It's a good place. |
**Autumn Nash:** You keep saying that and you haven't taught me how to run Sidero on Raspberry Pi yet. |
**Justin Garrison:** I have YouTube videos for that. But everyone, we will talk to you again next week. |
**Autumn Nash:** Bye, guys! |
• Introduction to Gareth Greenaway, core maintainer for the Salt program |
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