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There's a fork. So WarpStream made a fork almost immediately, and they called that Bento. And then they've since been acquired by Confluent, so I'm not 100% sure what the plan is. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[01:03:55.11\] Still commits going into that repo. I did check on it. We've had WarpStream on the show. They're still doing something with it. |
**Ashley Jeffs:** They're still doing stuff on it. Yeah, I'm not sure, but it's still MIT licensed. Basically, they forked it before I did the split, which is a bit awkward. I was trying to convince them to fork the MIT engine after the split and then just take the plugins and separate them, similar to how I'm doing fr... |
But yeah, I don't know. I don't get a lot of hate, because I think a lot of -- it's easy to look at a Hacker News post and see people kind of like whinging, and think that that's sort of like a personal attack on the developer... But - I mean, the idea that I'm personally just gonna work on this thing and live a more m... |
**Jerod Santo:** You're an indie band, and you signed with a big label. And your original fans are calling you a sellout. But this is classic. |
**Ashley Jeffs:** I got a few "He's a sellout, he's a sellout!!" And I'm like "I kind of can't argue against that, but..." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That is the terminology for a sellout, but I don't believe that's necessarily the exact case. I think that -- so the core engine stayed at MIT, right? |
**Ashley Jeffs:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So it wasn't like a rug pull. It was just an acquisition. |
**Ashley Jeffs:** Well, this is where a lot of these things get really complicated, because I think that the arguments that you see online - whenever there's a license change, the complaints that you see from people - I'm not gonna say they're robots; I'm gonna assume they're people - online, it's just a fundamental mi... |
And I think the fundamental -- I think it's like a willing misunderstanding, because I think people just like to get angry about this stuff... But the misunderstanding is this idea that by changing the license for stuff that you change on top of the codebase, you've taken away the old code. And people will say things l... |
But the idea that you've MIT licensed something, so now you have to work on it for free forever, otherwise it's a rug pull, is obviously not right. That's obviously not how -- nobody would make open source if that was the contract they were entering into. Like, social contract or real contract, it doesn't matter. Nobod... |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure. |
**Ashley Jeffs:** \[01:08:02.04\] And my career on gaming is terrible right now, because I don't have enough time for it. |
**Jerod Santo:** I think that this is evidence of what Stephen O'Grady's take on eventually open source was on our show, Adam, which is that nobody wants the older versions. Because what you say is 100% true. And that version of Benthos from April of 2024, pre-fork and sale, is 100% free, just like you licensed it the ... |
And so his point with eventually open source, which is where things go open source over time... Like, you can have the five years old from now version - that's open source; or maybe it's nine months. In practice, people don't really want that. So it's kind of like saying it's not open source. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And you're speaking to like the BSL or the functional source license kind of things. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, the eventually open source licenses... Which is a bit of an aside. I do think a rug pull though is in the eye of the rug owner. |
**Ashley Jeffs:** Oh, yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** And so that response is entirely emotional, and based on change of expectations, and absolutely unavoidable in the case of a license change of something. It's just going to happen. Whether or not it's justified, or -- obviously you're completely in your rights, both legally and I think morally, to make... |
**Ashley Jeffs:** It's the same with just the acquisition in general. Even if we kept everything exactly as it was and I joined Redpanda, then they would be upset. Because even if you ignore the codebase, for some people just the goofy videos and the updates and all that stuff was a big deal to them. And I mean, I real... |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, we recently made a big change here at Changelog, Ash. I was telling you about it before the show, just in December... |
**Ashley Jeffs:** And it was outrage. |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, I mean, there are people that legitimately love the shows that we decided we're not going to produce those shows anymore... And I understand that feeling. I've had my favorite shows disappear, and you're just like -- you're sad. |
You're like "Oh, that's too bad." And of course, we've talked about rug pulls a lot on the show, because there's been lots of instances of people feeling this way... And we had the term turn back on us for closing down Go Time and Ship It. And I'm just like "Okay, if that's the way you feel, then fine... But in what wo... |
**Ashley Jeffs:** Don't say that. You're going to make me seem hinged. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] Okay, well, please go off \[unintelligible 01:12:00.22\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Become unhinged. |
**Ashley Jeffs:** \[01:12:04.07\] So I've got a dartboard, and every day I print off the face of a hater... \[laughter\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[unintelligible 01:12:08.29\] some people... |
**Jerod Santo:** "And here's one of their addresses. I'm going to read it aloud..." |
**Ashley Jeffs:** \[laughs\] But yeah, I mean, I had myself prepped for having to do... Like, even if I'd gone down the bootstrap route, I knew that the tone of what I was doing was going to have to change at some point, and I was going to have to deal with people being... Not angry with me. I didn't expect them to all... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's entropy, baby. Nothing lasts forever. It's just the nature of nature. That's how it works. |
**Jerod Santo:** That's right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** The zoom out though I think is that it's encouraging that you could be in a place to have a skill, to have the desire to build something of value, create that value, steep that value for multiple years, find unique ways to sustain, and then ultimately find the ultimate value, which is taking that to... |
I mean, enterprises don't like to adopt something that they have to cowboy, necessarily. I got told recently saying cowboy is a negative term. It's not a negative term. It's just, cowboys are cowboys, you know? Get over it. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] I think they're talking about the Dallas Cowboys. That's a negative term. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You cowboyed it \[unintelligible 01:13:38.04\] I mean, they have to cowboy without support. And so you've landed at a place that you can keep doing that, which is great. |
**Ashley Jeffs:** Yeah. And also, we actually have people being paid to work on the project for like the first time. I'm not just asking contributors who've already like sacrificed a lot of their free time to learn all this stuff and get into it to, once again, "Can you do something for free, for the sake of this user?... |
I didn't mind having contributors sort of orbit. Mihai was one of our top contributors, and he enjoys working on the project, just like I do. But I felt this constant shame that I couldn't do something better than just "Hey, isn't it great that you're working on this project with me? Yo...!" |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Meanwhile, his kids are going, "Daddy, why don't you have a job at Google?" \[laughter\] |
**Jerod Santo:** "Why doesn't Benthos give you money, daddy?" |
**Ashley Jeffs:** And we're adding features. At the end of the day, if you're a Benthos user, there's a whackload new stuff on it that you didn't have before. And some of the stuff works a lot better than it used to, because we actually can now... |
**Jerod Santo:** "We actually care now..." \[laughs\] |
**Ashley Jeffs:** If you're like an actual user, there's a lot there that's obviously very, very positive. It's just that the immediate aftermath was difficult, because we didn't have anything to show at that point. We were just telling people "This is an acquisition." So there's no benefits to show them at that stage ... |
I did a live stream, either the day of or the day after, just to like talk people through what was actually changing to the repo. And to be honest, most people are either neutral - they don't really care; as long as the software still exists, they don't really care about any of this stuff, because they just use it for ... |
\[01:16:11.02\] I mean, I wasn't disappointed, but I obviously understood that there was a bit of a backlash. To be honest, I kind of enjoyed the Hacker News drama, because I don't get opportunities to be on Hacker News much... So it was nice to just be in there. "Oh, it's Ash here. I'm the maintainer, and this is my t... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Ashley Jeffs:** "I didn't have to post it." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** What's an alternate universe? I mean, you didn't have to be acquired. You could have had -- let me just paint maybe a potential alternate universe. Like, Redpanda could have just been a large, as they were, sponsor, right? They could have continued in perpetuity that way, or done a larger swath and ... |
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