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So for Vite, what I realized is -- actually, in terms of like sponsorship conversion, Vite is is doing worse than Vue, because it sits a layer lower. It's not a direct framework people interact with. So people have less sort of this idea, "I need to support the tool I'm using", because a lot of people are still using V... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[50:10\] Well, it's perhaps the Vue people also the people who are using Vite with Vue; they may already be supporting view and they think "Well, I'm already supporting these people." |
**Evan You:** Yeah. Right. Exactly. |
**Jerod Santo:** So that's possibly a part of it as well. |
**Evan You:** Yeah. So for me, I was thinking, "Okay, I want to make Vite independently sustainable, aside from Vue. I never want to sort of just mingle/mix these two projects." Because when we decided to make Vite framework agnostic, I was like "Okay, Vite is going to be its own thing. It needs to find its own way, ow... |
And then we started thinking about "What can we do to make Vite better?" And that's a lot of work when I think about it. And if we keep going the way Vue is doing, what I really worry about is what if we can't make Vite sustainable enough, and eventually people will just have to switch away from it when it is no longer... |
So I was thinking, "Can we find a way to a) leverage Vite to serve as this sort of gateway to more unification in the ecosystem, so we can maybe build more fundamental stack from the bottom up, to sort of leverage Vite to unify more things in the ecosystem?" At the same time, if we can make all the work on these parts ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure. |
**Evan You:** ...and I just don't feel like it's -- in a way, what I'm seeing is people keep redoing the work, and then they try to -- somehow, they try to figure out sustainability, and many of them fail. And then they give up, they move on to other things, and now we are stuck with an ecosystem of -- every problem ha... |
I think in the early days of the JavaScript ecosystem, having so many people just stepping up and creating solutions to problems - it's the strength of the ecosystem, and that's what made the JS ecosystem great. |
\[54:05\] But over time, a lot of the problems have, in a way -- the ecosystem has matured. We are arriving at more conventions and best practices on some of these problems, that we can more or less consider solved problems. So we want to kind of find a way to provide a very solid solution to these soft problems, and w... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. Well, that's a big thing to say, coming from you, because you're probably one of the best donation receivers out there. And if you say that, then it's got to be true. Okay, so VoidZero then... How does it work? What's the business model? You talk about these fundamental pieces underneath Vite, or... |
**Evan You:** Yeah. So at VoidZero we're building a unified tool chain for JavaScript. So the scope is quite large, so we would cover -- so obviously, there's Vite, which is at the center of it... It's a dev server, it's also a production bundler... And then we have Vitest, which is the test runner. Then we have the li... |
So essentially, we want to have this vertical, unified, integrated stack that supports from the parser all the way up to Vite, and then extend into test, lint, so that you can have a Cargo-like experience. If you've worked with Rust, when you start learning the language, the tool chain you use is Cargo, and it covers m... |
\[58:30\] So we'll probably discuss more when we announce Vite+ as a product, which - the name of the tool chain is called Vite+, so... We'll share more details at the conference. But the general idea is this is not a thing that can be sustainable if you're only trying to get donations from individuals. We want to make... |
Like, if you're open source, if you're an individual, if you're even maybe a small business, or educational, academic entities, or governmental entities, you should be able to just use this thing without any restrictions. But if you are a business that's having a decent amount of revenue, these are the targets that sho... |
**Jerod Santo:** And so to start this, did you raise money? |
**Evan You:** Yes, we did. Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** And the reason for that was because you needed time to explore this, or...? |
**Evan You:** Yeah, so the scope of this whole vision is obviously much bigger than what we can cover with just the sort of sponsorships or donations, like we did with Vue. If you want to build this whole thing from the ground up, you need a dedicated team of people, full-time efforts. And it also needs to be more stru... |
So Vue doesn't have sort of a fixed scope or a very concrete roadmap of what you need to achieve, say, in five years. But for this, I guess when I started having this idea, I realized "Okay the things you want to do... It's a lot. It's a pretty big scope if you want to build a unified tool chain for JavaScript. And it'... |
**Jerod Santo:** Gotcha. And so when you received the money, did you go out and then start hiring members of the Vite community, basically? |
**Evan You:** \[01:02:02.28\] Yeah, so we hired quite a few team members from Vitest, from Vite, but we also had a few folks from ByteDance. They were working at the web infra team on ByteDance, so actually a few of the earliest members of the company worked on the RSPack project at ByteDance, so they have a lot of exp... |
**Jerod Santo:** Gotcha. Funny story, I used to call it RSpack because no one ever told me how to pronounce it, and I had to say it on the show, and I'm like "It looks like RSpack." They lowercased the S; it doesn't make any sense. But RSPack makes way more sense than RSpack, for sure. |
Vite+ - is it Vite plus other features? Is it Vite, but you pay for it? Is it bundled? Is it Vite is multiple things, and we put them together and package them, and that's what you use? What is Vite+? I know you haven't actually announced the details, but give me a shape of the object. |
**Evan You:** Sure. Yeah. So Vite+ is a drop-in superset of Vite. |
**Jerod Santo:** A drop-in superset. Okay. |
**Evan You:** So if you're using Vite today, you can basically alias Vite to Vite+, and everything will continue to work the same way, but in addition to ViteDev and ViteBuild, you can now also do ViteLinked, Vitest, ViteBench, ViteFormat... |
**Jerod Santo:** I see. |
**Evan You:** Yeah. So it comes integrated with a lot more capabilities. So it's a tool chain, instead of just a build tool. |
**Jerod Santo:** And where and when is Vite+? Is Vite+ out there? Is it going to be out there at ViteConf, or...? |
**Evan You:** So we're going to -- yeah, we're going to talk about more details. We're probably going to give a first demo of what Vite+ looks like in action at ViteConf. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. |
**Evan You:** Right now it's still in active development, so we probably want to save the sort of big reveal at the conference. |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure. Absolutely. So after the conference, if I'm Jerod, the open source hacker, and I want Vite+, I'll be able to use Vite+ without any money, with money involved...? I'm just Jerod, the dev. |
**Evan You:** Jerod the dev, if you're just an individual hacker, you can definitely use Vite+ without any restrictions. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. Now I'm Jerod, the well-funded Fortune 500 company. I cannot use Vite+ without money, correct? |
**Evan You:** So you can still try it, you can still just experiment with it, but if you're using it in any commercial capacity, you'll need to talk to us. |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. Are the individual components of Vite+ separately open source, or no? |
**Evan You:** Yes, they are. |
**Jerod Santo:** So it's the packaged deal that is -- |
**Evan You:** Yup, yup. So the underlying components, which includes Vite, RollDown, OXC, Vitest, they remain open source, remain exactly what they are today. Vite+ is a combination of these things, plus a few more Vite+ only features. So we are actually working on an integrated task runner/caching system for monorepos... |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. And that will be a Vite+ thing. So does that require a VoidZero server somewhere in there? |
**Evan You:** It doesn't. Right now it's local. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. Do you imagine a world in which VoidZero servers are involved? |
**Evan You:** \[01:06:15.19\] In the future maybe, but we don't want to make that a requirement. So these will be probably more like value-added services, where it will make your... Like, remote caching with the system definitely will require some sort of server setup, but we'll definitely make it feasible to use your ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Gotcha. So as Jerod the Fortune 500 software team, and I want to use Vite+... Do you have it figured out in terms of my understanding of that whole deal? Where do you interface to me when I know I have to actually come give Evan and his team money? How does that -- have you got that figured out yet? |
**Evan You:** So I don't want to get into too much details, but... |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. |
**Evan You:** Yeah, yeah. But we'll have a more formally documented "How does this license work?", the FAQ and everything, we'll have that up on the website by the time we announce it. |
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