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**Adam Stacoviak:** Or even size. |
**Cliff Biffle:** Or size. Size of code, size of flash required... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Strings, numbers, bigger, smaller... Yeah. |
**Cliff Biffle:** \[11:51\] ...Rust replicates that control pretty well. Languages like Go are less focused on that, and don't come out of the box with as much help in that area. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Do you mess with Go at all? |
**Cliff Biffle:** I have a little bit, yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** How do you feel when you do that? |
**Cliff Biffle:** It's okay. I mostly just kind of feel like a foreigner. Like, it's not really my native territory. I could get more comfortable with it if I needed to. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And what are you doing with Go when you do play with it? |
**Cliff Biffle:** I do some like -- periodically I'll do like... They have like the Advent of Code exercises, or like programming exercises that people put out annually... And I try doing them in other languages, just to kind of keep my brain stretchy. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Cliff Biffle:** So I've done stuff like that, but I've never used it in anger. Never for anything real. |
**Jerod Santo:** Tell us about Hubris. |
**Cliff Biffle:** Yeah, so... \[laughs\] So I tried really hard not to write Hubris. When I got here, they were -- there's this other operating system called Tock. It's also in Rust... |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay... |
**Cliff Biffle:** It targets the same sort of very low-level, deeply embedded -- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** How do you spell that, Tock? |
**Cliff Biffle:** T-O-C-K. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Okay. |
**Cliff Biffle:** Like you'd expect. |
**Jerod Santo:** Like Tick-Tock. |
**Cliff Biffle:** Yeah. But not like TikTok -- |
**Jerod Santo:** Not the platform. The way clocks work. |
**Cliff Biffle:** Yeah. The original Tick-Tock. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Cliff Biffle:** They were trying to use TickTock, or -- |
**Jerod Santo:** Sorry... |
**Cliff Biffle:** You fried my brain. So they were trying to use Tock when I got here. And I had some previous experience with Tock, |
I know the people that wrote it... So I got in line and tried really hard to make it work for our application, but we just kept hitting areas where their design intent and the things we needed didn't really overlap. Like, Tock is mostly at the time being written with educational use cases in mind, so they wanted kids t... |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay... |
**Cliff Biffle:** I'm old. To be able to dynamically reload programs on it as they're working, and nice use case stuff like that... But we really don't want that for security reasons. We want -- any code that runs on this better be what we shipped, when we shipped it. So we put a bunch of work into trying to work aroun... |
**Jerod Santo:** They're all running that. |
**Cliff Biffle:** They're all running Hubris. |
**Jerod Santo:** So how big or small is Hubris in terms of like line count, or whatever? |
**Cliff Biffle:** So the core kernel is like a thousand lines of code... |
**Jerod Santo:** That's not very much. |
**Cliff Biffle:** ...but there's a bunch of other stuff you want to make it useful. But it runs right now on everything from like sub-50 cent microcontrollers that you wouldn't even spot on a printed circuit board, because they're just a tiny fleck of silicon, up through the big service processor that we use to run the... |
**Jerod Santo:** And does that job. |
**Cliff Biffle:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Are there multiple instances of Hubris on a given full rack system? |
**Cliff Biffle:** Yeah, so every slide has at least two. There's the service processor that is responsible for basically caring and feeding of the big AMD chip. Then there's a root of trust that handles security and crypto. That's a separate copy. And then there's... So there's those two on every compute sled, and ther... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Why so many copies? Is that hard to manage? It's like... |
**Cliff Biffle:** Yes and no. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** ...multiple updates, different versions potentially even... |
**Cliff Biffle:** That's true. It has pluses and minuses. So the SP versus root of trust split, which is the main source of the many, many copies... There has to be at least one of these on each board... |
**Jerod Santo:** Security... |
**Cliff Biffle:** ...because the board's got to be able to power itself on. Because it might be the first one powering on and responsible for driving all the other ones. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, it's a specialized case. That makes sense to be a copy, but... |
**Cliff Biffle:** So one makes sense. Why two? And the honest reason why two is we can buy one chip with the features we need to do the service processor. We can buy one chip with the crypto security features we need to do the root of trust. We can't get them both in one chip right now. And we can't afford to make our ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[16:10\] Okay. So when you can-- |
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