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**Cliff Biffle:** We've had folks where this turns out to set off other past work trauma... Like, we've all got like work PTSD from some shitty former boss. And if things are happening here that's too much like that, you might get freaked out and decide you need to leave, which I totally respect. We've had folks like A... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So just time. |
**Cliff Biffle:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So mostly good reasons. Not like "This place sucks. I'm out of here." |
**Cliff Biffle:** I think there's -- you could probably find people that think this place sucks. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah? |
**Cliff Biffle:** Yeah. I'm not totally sure who, but I'm pretty sure you could. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** One person? |
**Cliff Biffle:** Probably one or two. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Two people. |
**Cliff Biffle:** I don't know. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Out of 80, that's pretty good odds. |
**Cliff Biffle:** It's not too bad. |
**Jerod Santo:** How do you feel about the uniform compensation stuff? |
**Cliff Biffle:** I think it's amazing it's worked this long. It was part of the reason I joined. Because I came in all like knives out, expecting to negotiate... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Cliff Biffle:** \[24:02\] ...and Steve's like "So what we're doing is we give people stock according to this formula, and we pay everybody the same amount of dollars." I'm like "Well, that'd save me a lot of stress. Sold." |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. Probably the opposite of your time at Google. |
**Cliff Biffle:** Yeah. A hundred percent. Oh, my God. My only real concern there is that one of the things I really like doing is bringing people in who either don't have a lot of experience in industry, or like are just out of school, or just out of some other job... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. Mentoring them up. |
**Cliff Biffle:** Right. And like, are we comfortable bringing in people that are basically interns, and paying them pretty good Bay Area salaries? Maybe we are. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Cliff Biffle:** But I do want us to be able to bring those people in, because that's how we get the next generation of us. |
**Jerod Santo:** That's a good point. |
**Cliff Biffle:** But if we can do that while keeping the compensation uniform, or at least fair, that would make me really happy. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** What does it do for your personal ability to show up to not worry about compensation... |
**Cliff Biffle:** A lot. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** ...as much as you had to before? |
**Cliff Biffle:** Oh, my God. So not having to worry that some of my coworkers are getting screwed over by having not like hardball negotiated in their interview... So I became a manager at Google, of a team that I had previously been on... And at that point, at the next promotion cycle, I was able to see everybody's s... |
**Jerod Santo:** Wow... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's a lot of money. |
**Cliff Biffle:** Yeah. And it was mostly us guys that had the higher numbers. It was kind of crap. So I don't have to worry about that here, which is great. And I feel like people are a little more comfortable talking about both job conditions, and also kind of like financial stress. Some people have been really open ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** This may not be accurate, but one thing I thought about was the fact that it seems like you all are owners of the company. Like, everyone in there that works here owns -- |
**Cliff Biffle:** Small owner, yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You all have equity. Some may have more, some may have less, and the compensation is the same across the board, but what changes is you have a different job. One person has a CEO job. |
**Cliff Biffle:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Now, that person may have more equity, but that's because they also started the company. |
**Cliff Biffle:** It's because they were here early. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** The compensation is a little different. But the day-to-day, the check, the reason you show up, it seems like an even playing field, and you all are sort of owners in a way... |
**Cliff Biffle:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** ...as much as you can be owners, equitably. |
**Cliff Biffle:** I really don't like hierarchy. When I'm managing people, I view -- manager's just a job. Like, it doesn't mean that I'm above you, or like in control of you, or better than you. It's that I'm going to do the manager things, you can do the engineering things, and we're both happy. And I'll develop skil... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Who wants to do that job, right? |
**Cliff Biffle:** The sales guys -- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That job he described on stage... I was like "Wow, that is a hard job." |
**Cliff Biffle:** Yeah. Like, our sales team - they do the sales that I don't want to do. They're good at it, clearly. They actually make different amounts of money... They're the one corner case. Because salespeople - we have an incentive thing, where the more they sell, the more money they make... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. Compensation. |
**Cliff Biffle:** ...which we're excited about, and we don't have a problem with. So yeah, I do think it helps with the sort of sense of like we're all in this together... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
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