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**Adam Stacoviak:** I was thinking that, too. Could they either -- when will they get upset, and will they compete? Can you compete them? "You both have the same job. The one who does it better gets the task." |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh... \[unintelligible 00:35:38.27\] |
**Amanda Silver:** \[unintelligible 00:35:39.01\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Their job is to do the task and be excited about getting it right, and so they compete with the person or the other. |
**Jerod Santo:** They wanna get promoted. |
**Amanda Silver:** Well, I mean, I think that actually there's something to that. And I think one of the things for folks who are working on different machine learning models for the application to coding, we have benchmarks. Just like in the old days, when I was working on the JavaScript engine, we had performance ben... |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure. |
**Amanda Silver:** Nowadays we have benchmarks for these SWE-agent kinds of models that are coming out. And so part of what we -- there's different kinds of techniques that you go through in terms of kind of getting the performance of the benchmark to be better, because you can optimize for different things. You can op... |
**Jerod Santo:** Fascinating potential world. You mentioned every line of code, or a lot of the codes that we do here at Microsoft... That got me thinking about your own products. |
**Amanda Silver:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** And Satya mentioned code modernization. Of course, a huge opportunity, for these agents to do. I was just thinking about Anders and the team's port over to Go... |
**Amanda Silver:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** ...and how tedious that could be unless you have some agents doing the work for you. I'm curious about your old software projects. I'm thinking Visual Studio is pretty old at this point... |
**Amanda Silver:** Yeah, we have 20-year codebases, 25-year codebases... |
**Jerod Santo:** Are you harnessing these things to modernize things like Visual Studio? |
**Amanda Silver:** Can I say I'm glad you asked? \[laughter\] |
**Jerod Santo:** You can say that, sure. |
**Amanda Silver:** Well, actually, one of the things that we introduced today is allowing GitHub Copilot to help you modernize your .NET and Java code. So if you have a dependency on .NET 6, and you need to move to .NET 9, or you have a dependency on Java 8 and you need to move to Java 21, then you can actually use Git... |
**Jerod Santo:** The worst. |
**Amanda Silver:** \[38:10\] That's the thankless job that, as a developer, you hate that -- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Didn't somebody spend 10 years doing that stuff? |
**Amanda Silver:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Of course. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We just read the story... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Amanda Silver:** That moment when your boss comes in and is like "We need to modernize the codebase, and I need you to work for six months on doing this port." Oh my God, that's crushing, because you don't get to do anything that's exciting. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. It's just tedious. |
**Amanda Silver:** It's kind of tedious. And from our customers who are using it, they're telling us it takes care of 70% of the code migration. At least. So that's pretty incredible. We have success rates in the 90s of just upgrading your codebase. So I think that's one dimension of technical debt that this kind of st... |
So my hope -- I think that the industry is still saddled with incredible amounts of technical debt. And if we can actually go and erase a bunch of that technical debt... Like, just imagine how much more innovation could happen. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I got to thinking about this idea of the state of human velocity. We are now doing things that we wouldn't normally do. Not because we can't do them, but because they're just so time-consuming. Like porting a codebase to something else. We were spending a decade to do something like that. And now I ... |
**Amanda Silver:** Yeah. I think in a lot of senses, we've been struggling -- I wouldn't say struggling. I would say limited by the available developer talent in the world. We still have a shortage of developers, in my opinion. A significant shortage of developers across the world. And especially developers who have hi... |
I think there's huge amounts of demand and need in the industry overall that is just not getting addressed today, because developers are settled with technical debt, and what they already have on their plate is significant enough to occupy them. And so if we can actually erase a bunch of that, I think that's going to m... |
But I think the other thing that's super-important in all of this is there are aspects of the developer job that are not awesome, technical debt being one of them. Another thankless task is being on call, and responding to live site incidents in the middle of the night. I know that a lot of our developers do not relish... |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure. |
**Amanda Silver:** \[41:47\] And I think that a lot of the new capabilities in AI allow us to offload, at least the less complex cases of site reliability engineering response to agents. So one of the things that we talked about today is we introduced a new site reliability engineer SRE Agent that can actually deal wit... |
So I think that's pretty cool, because that -- there's aspects of the developer job that's all about creation, and you love that moment where you when you get to write new code, you get to scaffold out new... I always loved scaffolding out new class libraries, and frameworks, and just doing the first rough-in of the ap... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's like self-healing, and I imagine that - you said the fix may not be a permanent one; it's more focused on uptime. |
**Amanda Silver:** Yeah, exactly. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** "My goal as this autonomous agent is not the best long term fix. It's keeping the application up." |
**Amanda Silver:** Yeah. I mean, SRE agents - SREs in general - are always focused on application uptime, and mean time to mitigation. So if there is an incident, how long does it take for them to actually respond to it. And then they also are concerned about things like costs and operations over time... And I think th... |
**Jerod Santo:** So are these agents actually applying the fixes, and the person doesn't have to come in and hit that button that says "Yeah, let's go ahead and do this"? Did I hear that right? |
**Amanda Silver:** Correct. Yeah. I mean, it's all within policy. You can decide like what limits you want it to have. But if you need to scale your infrastructure up to be able to handle more memory, for example, it could deal with that automatically in the middle of the night, without having to ping you and wake you ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You could almost have it do the fix and another agent to check the fix. |
**Amanda Silver:** That's right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I mean your policy, you alluded to the policy. The policy essentially is an augmentation of potentially an agent that has different parameters. |
**Jerod Santo:** You're trying to take us out of the job, aren't you? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I mean, I'm just saying, that's just the -- that's where it's going. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Not necessarily, but that's what you can do, though. You can have \[unintelligible 00:45:28.20\] all the time. You can have an agent that just checks it to confirm based on policy. |
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