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So that's sort of how we started, ground up. It took a while for us to gain traction. We ran an inner source event internally. A lot more curated people, because then they're coming to learn about inner source... And we had to intentionally and very deliberately build those relationships and connection. So it took a ti... |
\[43:45\] I came to Intel... At Intel there was already an effort that was happening on that. So we have 100,000 plus repos. Those were all put onto the platform, they were all on a wide range of CI/CD systems, wide range of Git repos, wide range of orgs... So all of that was automatically then thought about that "Okay... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. I like that. I mean, it seems like some of the key characteristics are organization, some sort of org that says, "Okay, we're going to make this a thing. This is not a thing... We're making it a thing." That's easy. You mentioned nomenclatures... So how do we describe this stuff? And maybe eac... |
And then you've got sort of visibility. I don't want to recreate the wheel... I don't want to go out to the open source land, because I can't play there. I've got to play in business user land, not open source user land. And so where can I find that stuff? And then gauge my own desires. Like, are they maintaining it? D... |
I love though how this manifests to say "These are the open source culture mechanisms you would care about." I love how that has the possibility, I suppose, of getting people to truly understand what open source at large works and how it works, versus simply just how it works internally. |
**Arun Gupta:** I think one of the things that we don't talk often about is as new developers are getting on board, they're coming fresh out of college. I mean, a lot of the developers understand open source really well, but for developers who don't understand open source well, who have that fear of failure that "Oh, i... |
So I think inner source in that -- I mean, it's a bold move, and I really love it. I admire it, because that's how I am. But not everybody is like that. So in that sense, inner source really gives that safe space for people to like "Okay, I'm going to refine my skills in my own comfortable environment, and I'm going to... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Mm-hm. That's cool. |
**Jerod Santo:** So you dedicate an entire chapter to internal events. You just mentioned a couple of things right there... And while we're talking inner, it was a surprise to me to see a chapter on internal events, because I'm not in the know, but apparently you are. And so tell us why that is like a whole chapter of ... |
**Arun Gupta:** \[48:12\] I think it's super-important. And I'm, again, looking at the chapters here... The types of internal events that I talk about in that book is like workshops, where you are bringing people and teaching them that "Okay, let me tell you how to be an effective Git user." Hackathons, where you bring... |
Internal projects, where you may say that "Okay, I'm just going to run a hobby project", and on a daily basis, I'm feeling the need that I need to do this again and again and again. So every knowledge that I've learned so far, I'm going to spin up an internal project. Maybe in inner source, as a matter of fact. Having ... |
I remember when we did the Open Ecosystem Summit at Intel a couple of years ago, there were about 2,500 people that showed up, and a lot of internal discovery happened. Like, "Oh, I did not know you were working on this project. I did not know you were working on this effort." So that really allowed them to connect wit... |
Very ditto experience when we ran the first Kubernetes Summit at Apple. There were 1,000 plus people that showed up at Apple to that Kubernetes summit. And Apple, as you understand the company culture, it's very walled across different views. But for the open source topic like Kubernetes, they were all able to share in... |
So I think it's super-important, the relevance of those internal events, because those internal events help you prepare to be a better citizen out in the open source world, they help you bridge the gap, connect to the existing open source elements... So a lot of fun. I think it's very, very relevant. And I've seen the ... |
I remember SUSE talks about something like Hack Week, where they will have a week dedicated to hackathons. No work done during that time, but essentially bring a project in, hack on it... And that incentive by the top management is really big time, and it encourages employees that it's okay to do that. And that is what... |
**Jerod Santo:** You mentioned the thousand people that showed up to that first Apple Kubernetes event... You remind me of an old show we did with a late great Dan Kohn. One of my favorite episode titles ever, Adam, if you remember this one. We named it "Kubernetes brings all the cloud natives to the yard." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I love that. |
**Jerod Santo:** Because we were just so surprised at how many -- like, the growth of KubeCon, and just how excited people were for Kubernetes back in the late teens. It was amazing. Like, KubeCon doubled in size every year for the first five years, or something crazy like that. And it was probably a surprise at the ti... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, for sure. That was a good title, Jerod. Good callback. |
**Break**: \[52:05\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** One thing that -- you were talking about hackathons; I was just leafing through that section of your book there, and I want to pull out this... If you don't mind, I want to quote your words. You said "Hackathons and coding sprints are like HIIT." Is that HIIT? Yeah, it is. |
**Jerod Santo:** High Intensity Interval Training. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's right, High Intensity Interval Training. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay, now we're going to get the athlete to come out... |
**Arun Gupta:** \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's right. |
**Jerod Santo:** Arun the athlete. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** "Hackathons and coding sprints are like HIIT training for open source developers. They provide time-boxed and concentrated bursts of engagement that push participants to deliver impactful contributions within short timeframes." I think that's a great analogy, because I've always struggled to underst... |
**Arun Gupta:** Correct. When I was writing that chapter, I was thinking in terms of "What do I do in my daily life? "And Jerod, thank you for the reference. I've been a long time athlete, and this morning, as a matter of fact, my workout was a HIIT workout. I'm a lifetime runner, so I've been running for a very long t... |
So I think it's super-important in that sense, on taking that intense exercise. It could be a workshop, it could be a hackathon, whatever it is. And in hackathon - again, Adam, as you called out, it's really a good way to engage with other people. Because no matter which business unit you are from, you are sitting toge... |
One of the things I talk about often is conflict resolution. It's a big one in open source. So often we get confused between personality conflict and task conflict. That "Oh, this person has given a feedback, he lives in this part of the world, and that's why he must be giving me this feedback." Keep that aside. It's n... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, I feel like we could have an analogy for the fitness junkies out there. Like, you have HIIT classes like a hackathon, Pomodoro, that's like Tabata... Coding bootcamp... Well, I guess that's just a bootcamp. That already has an analogy. But we could have a bunch of these. I like that. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, that's somebody coming in and educating them what to eat. |
**Jerod Santo:** There you go. |
**Arun Gupta:** Yeah. See, I mean, in the book - I'm looking through the chapters here... So for example -- because I wrote this a while back. The hackathons are like HIIT. The guest speakers are like the mentorship and coaching that athletes receive from seasoned experts. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. Yeah, sure. |
**Arun Gupta:** \[01:00:04.04\] That's what guest speakers are. Athletes build muscle memory through repetitive training, and hone their skills through simulated game scenarios in practice. That's your internal projects, essentially. And topical summits really dig deep into a particular topic. And these are like-minded... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] Well, you beat me to it. I didn't know you already went through such a fleshed out exercise. But yeah, good metaphors, for sure, for those interested in such things as fitness. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's good for you. It's good for you. |
**Jerod Santo:** Not for you, Adam. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Oh, I like fitness. I'm down with the fitness. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] So Arun, share more of your fitness bent. You said you run a lot... Give us some stats. How long have you been running? How far do you run? How fast do you run? Etc. |
**Arun Gupta:** I've been running for 40 years. For a long time. For a very long time. I've done 35 half and full marathons around the world. |
**Jerod Santo:** Wow. |
**Arun Gupta:** I think 2021 was my most running year. I ran 2000 plus miles that year, which is an average of five and a half mile every day. So that was the most extreme running year. Now I'm on a much more easier scale. It's about 10K every four or five days a week, and the other two days are lifting. So I do work o... |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, that's cool. So you do that all by yourself, or do you have a partner in crime? Sometimes for me I get more motivated when I have an accountability partner, or something. |
**Arun Gupta:** I'm all by myself. My schedules are very early in the morning, and I've got to go drop my son to school, get the breakfast ready for the whole family in the morning... So I do like really early in the morning. |
**Jerod Santo:** Nice. |
**Arun Gupta:** Most of the days I'm getting up around 5, 5.15, I hit the road by 5.30 or so, do an hour workout, and back in time for the first seven o'clock meeting. |
**Jerod Santo:** Very impressive. Very impressive. |
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