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But then you have another energy drink that has caffeine, guarana, yerba mate, yohimbe extract - all these other things... So how do you call both of them an energy drink? And then on the converse, if there's something that has caffeine from green tea and B vitamins, and a lot of sugar - can you call that an energy dri... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. |
**Danielle Rath:** So this is why I often use the term caffeinated beverage, as opposed to energy drinks, because I feel like that's a more inclusive terms that captures everything in the umbrella - the stereotypes and the energy drinks in disguise, as I like to call them. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I mean, because just taking B12 vitamin shots can be considered an energy boost; it boosts your energy, your thoughts, your mental clarity... People do that just for energy, is what I'm trying to say. They use it for those reasons. |
**Danielle Rath:** Yeah, there's a lot of confusion around whether B shots actually work. There's a huge placebo effect to that, where people expect that B12 gives you energy, and so people feel that energy, but this is perceived energy. So this is the energy rated on a scale, which is subjective. So it's hard to actua... |
The people that have gotten energy from B12, like JFK, Margaret Thatcher - those people actually had an enzymatic deficiency, so they needed B12 shots. So their need actually drove that trend of high doses of B12 in drinks, and having those B12 shots or supplements. But the science behind whether or not that actually g... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** I'm so glad you mentioned that, because what you're getting at is really genetic differences, right? People's genes play a role in the way in which caffeine affects them... |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes, yes... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** ...and that can be highly varied. |
**Danielle Rath:** Absolutely. Absolutely. It's everything from how quickly your body metabolizes caffeine, to how sensitive you are to anxiety. There are people that have polymorphisms or differences in their A2 receptors in their head... So the way that adenosine affects them in their brain is different, and the way ... |
So there's that, and then there's caffeine sensitivity, which makes some people, like my husband, super-sensitive to caffeine... He has a cup of green tea and he's running around the house like crazy, whereas me - my sensitivity is a lot lower. I'm a lot less sensitive, so I need a lot of a stronger dose. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Does that mean you build up a tolerance over time, or is that just like -- some of that's built in, some of that's built up...? |
**Danielle Rath:** They are related, but they're slightly different. So your caffeine sensitivity will always be the same. You will always have no effect on caffeine if you're not a responder, and you will always have a high tolerance if your sensitivity is low. You can't change your sensitivity, but you can change you... |
\[11:53\] If you're someone that always has negative side effects to having caffeine, whether it's from soda, or chocolate, or tea, then your tolerance isn't going to change that very much. If you're someone that can have a cup of coffee and you feel that alertness, then your tolerance means that having a cup of coffee... |
So I would say tolerance is kind of like a fine-tune on your sensitivity. Your sensitivity is where we start, and then you can kind of fine-tune that up or down by building a tolerance. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** I'm so glad you mentioned that, Danielle, because in my preliminary research of this - understanding how we metabolize caffeine is really big, and so the sensitivity is one aspect of that, tolerance is another... But I've also found drug interactions can also make a difference, right? |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Can you talk to us about -- sort of certain drugs can affect it...? |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes, there's a certain class of drugs, that I always forget... It's not like the statin inhibitors, but it's basically the things that are supposed to control your blood pressure and your heart rate. If you're on those types of drugs, then they can interfere with caffeine in a negative way. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Oh, really? |
**Danielle Rath:** Yeah. So you're not supposed to have caffeine if you're already on medication for blood pressure or heart rate. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** So that gets at too the way in which caffeine can affect your heart, and how we hear some of these things over like "Oh, this person had three Red Bulls and they went into cardiac arrest." |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. And there's always this tendency to blame energy drinks when someone passes or is hospitalized because of a caffeine overdose, but a lot of times people digging into the research have found that person has a genetic something in their heart that made them more susceptible. That the dose of caffe... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** So is there any sort of scientific way in which people know about themselves, or is it literally just like trial and error? |
**Danielle Rath:** Unfortunately it's trial and error... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Oh, boy... \[laughs\] |
**Danielle Rath:** I think that some of those DNA -- |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Like the 23andMe some of the DNA tests? |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes! Thank you. I think some of those might have the ability to tell you if you have a sensitivity to caffeine, but I would say just save your money and always nurse your caffeine. If you're not sure how caffeine affects you, don't start by having three Red Bulls, or five NoDoz pills. You can figure ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** This is something we always prescribe too, is like "Be your own scientist", essentially. That's what you're saying. |
**Danielle Rath:** Yeah. Because that's gonna be more reliable than whatever 23andMe has to say. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So I guess getting into that, what kind of effects, if you were being that scientist and you were doing some of these things, taking this advice, and you were nursing caffeine - not so much energy drinks, but caffeine drinks, as you say - what are the effects that give you indications that you're on... |
**Danielle Rath:** Exactly. There's three telltale signs that you might be having too much caffeine. One is if your thoughts are kind of racing. Caffeine is supposed to help you focus. If caffeine is not doing that, if it's doing the opposite of that, and you feel like you have scattered thoughts, it's probably too muc... |
The second one to look for is a racing heartbeat. Caffeine mildly affects your heart rate, similar to going up three flights of stairs. It shouldn't kill you, but you might feel it. You might feel a little shortness of breath. So you can start to notice -- and a lot of people are wearing Fitbits these days, so you can ... |
And then the third sign would be those jitters, if you're actually feeling some slight trampling. It's usually your hands. Sometimes it could be like not able to hold still with your legs; if you start tapping your foot incessantly, that's another sign that maybe you've had too much caffeine. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[16:00\] And you mentioned genetic disabilities or genetic indicators to, say, adverse effects with caffeine... What about autoimmune disorders, or things regarding metabolism, things that people may have or not be aware of. Almost everyone has some sort of thyroid skew towards the negative side...... |
**Danielle Rath:** Sure. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Or someone that adopts the kind of diet we generally have here, because we eat lots of unique, weird things... And there's a lot of thyroid issues, or metabolism issues, obesity even... How does caffeine favor into those classifications of people? Or is that too wide and diverse for you to drive int... |
**Danielle Rath:** It's a little wide and diverse. The areas that caffeine affects is not typically autoimmune disorders, or even obesity. To my knowledge, there's not a direct interaction between caffeine and these things. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** One of the things that I've found that was super-interesting was that caffeine is an alkaloid... To geek out for a moment. |
**Danielle Rath:** Oh, yeah. \[laughs\] |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Right? And that morphine and nicotine are also alkaloids. Is that right? |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Does that make any difference? I mean, is that disconcerting, or in what way is morphine different than caffeine, or what is the mechanism of action that then sort of works on our bodies to sort of stimulate or increase our attention, or stimulate what, in our brain? |
**Danielle Rath:** So the way that caffeine works has more to do with its specific shape than its class as an alkaloid. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Okay. |
**Danielle Rath:** As far as I know - I mean, there's always new research; it's so hard to keep up with this stuff... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Right? Always... |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. So initially, a lot of people were looking at "Is this why caffeine is so addictive? Is it addictive because it shares the same class as morphine or some of these other alkaloids that have these addictive properties? But that research is leaning more towards the no, that caffeine is not addictiv... |
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