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I have this filter on my phone that turns things in this nice shade of red when it's time to simmer down and get ready to go to sleep. Adenosine is like that. It's like "Yo, it's been a long day. Let's start relaxing, let's get ready for sleep", but caffeine sits in that spot, so you never get that calm-down signal. In... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** I love this. And I quote, you said "Caffeine blocks adenosine, which prevents adenosine from sending you 'You are getting sleepy' signals." |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes, yes. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** But after a while, your body realized caffeine is blocking adenosine, and makes more... So it takes more caffeine to feel the same energy boost, right? |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** This is tolerance, right? |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes, exactly. This is where the tolerance comes into play, exactly. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** So this is why going, you know, my standard cup of coffee, when I'm tired, because I didn't sleep, or God forbid, my sleep was interrupted with a newborn... |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** ...that it's like "Wait, I need more. I need more." So that might be, to some degree, why it's confusing for people relative to addiction, right? |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** And tolerance is a facet of addiction; you need more to cultivate the same effects. |
**Danielle Rath:** yes. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** But that doesn't necessarily mean caffeine is addicting, it just means we like it. |
**Danielle Rath:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, what is addiction then, in that case? How do you classify addiction when it comes to caffeine? |
**Danielle Rath:** Mireille, you probably can answer this better than me though, so I'll let you... \[laughter\] |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Well, because when is it ever that simple when it comes to our brain, right? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[20:08\] It's not, yeah. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** There's multiple systems working. And to say "Well, adenosine..." that's one thing, but dopamine is another. So I can talk about other drugs and how they actually burn out dopamine receptors, sort of similar to this adenosine, and going it blocks, so that dopamine just keeps giving you the hit... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. In our pre-call, talking about this subject, you mentioned chasing the ghost... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Yes. Well, that relative to addiction, and going -- you know, that's a commonly used phrase, to go "Once you've used, you're never going to be able to catch that ghost again, because you had an unaltered brain prior to when you first used whatever substance." |
**Danielle Rath:** Mireille, didn't you also use an acronym in a previous podcast? It was like CAR, or something... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Yeah, so I... Dude, like Cue, Craving, Response, Reward. |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes! |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** So cue, anticipated response, reward. But, so there's multiple systems involved with our reward system, and adenosine is not dopamine, right? |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. I remember listening to that podcast and having to pull over and take notes on my phone... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Oh, boy... I love it. |
**Danielle Rath:** Because caffeine - one of the many things it does is it boosts our dopamine. So this is related to why having a cup of coffee feels so good, in addition to that mental aspect of this reward, like "Yes, I've survived another morning with the kids. I'm gonna have my cup of coffee." You feel like that's... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Right? So it's interesting, relative to the behavioral conditioning... We practice -- like, we are what we repeatedly do, and our brain loves the familiar; it's like "Oh, my cup of coffee..." So there's multiple systems at play when I'm going for my caffeine... Which is part of why it's so har... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. Some people have routines, and mine has generally been one cup of coffee a day now. I don't know what happened... It used to be two or more. Maybe I'm lazy, or busy - I'm not sure which one it is. I'll probably favor I'm lazy -- I'm busy. I almost outed myself there... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Nice Freudian slip there... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yes, it was an accident there. But you know, my day begins with a cup of coffee. So is it addiction? Going back to the question "When is it addiction?" Well, I don't think so... Because that's my habit loop. I run that play, my day kicks off, my brain, all the focus, all the things come into play an... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Yeah, so it was interesting speaking to that, because when I did a period of sort of eliminating a lot of foods - I did this elimination diet - I had to get rid of caffeine... But what it revealed was actually a way in which I used caffeine was even more so a reward... To go like "Oh, if you d... |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes, absolutely. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Which I was like "Hey, Mireille, what are you doing?" My nice internal dialogue, I've just made external... |
**Danielle Rath:** \[24:00\] Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And truthfully, lattes - if you go in a Starbucks, or a decent, high-class coffee place, in many cases these things aren't just simply coffee, they're desserts. If you get a latte, you're gonna put caramel syrup in there potentially... You may not, but there's the temptation to add -- you know, with... |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes, which gets into the problem of caffeine and sugar. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** You must seriously read my mind... \[laughter\] Like, yes...! It was really interesting - there was research from the Harvard School of Public Health that found that there was six genetic variants associated with the way in which people metabolize and form an addiction to caffeine. So of this ... |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes, absolutely. I remember reading that study but a lot of the details have kind of gone out of my mind, replaced by other stuff... \[laughs\] |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Yeah, but every energy drinker, any caffeinated beverage has a different intermix of caffeine, juice and sugar, right? |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes, yes. And carbonation. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** And carbonation... So can you talk to our listeners about how do those things matter, what are those variables? |
**Danielle Rath:** So the most important thing to keep in mind is that if you are drinking caffeine, you probably are doing that to feel more alert. If you have caffeine and sugar, your goal will backfire. That caffeine will not be as efficient at helping you stay awake, if there's sugar involved... Because the sugar w... |
So if you're feeling this energy spike and then crash, it's because whatever you had had a lot of sugar, which is behind this fall. This is why I never drink caffeine and sugar. I try and get my sugar-free syrups if I go to a coffee store, and I stick to the sugar-free energy drinks... Because in a few different studie... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** So that would also play into anything... If I'm adding sugar to my coffee, or latte, or frappucinos, or things like that, right? |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** It's not really going to cultivate the benefits that I want it to. |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. |
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