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**Danielle Rath:** Yes, yes. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** But it's valuable, right? ...and teaching people to go examine what you're ingesting. |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. I think you need to examine it, and you also need to know where you're getting your things... Because weight loss supplements and workout supplements are among the most adulterated products on the market. So energy drinks often fall into that place, and if you were just buying an energy drink or... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, that leads us to regulation then. You mentioned supplements - that's generally in the vitamin department, which is totally unregulated; you could be rogue out there. The regulation is... |
**Danielle Rath:** Lax. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** ...wishy-washy, let's just say. It's not there, fundamentally... So in this market, the FDA regulates, they don't regulate - what's the scenario between regulation of these kinds of things? No one says what you can and what you can't do. In terms of the label, of saying caffeine or not... Same thing... |
**Danielle Rath:** With the supplement industry I certainly learned a lot by working at Beach Body, because Beach Body was so atypical in how much diligence they put into their ingredients and their suppliers. So working in the supplement industry was really eye-opening, because we at Beach Body were doing so much hard... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Like any industry, right? There's variation. |
**Danielle Rath:** There's variation, exactly; like any industry, there's always a spectrum of people that are doing the right thing, and people that are just making money for the wrong reasons. So with supplements the regulations are a lot more lenient. Of course, they have the same checklist, of like "This must be on... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's why we need people like you though. You're an advocate. You're an advocate for the consumer, right? |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes, absolutely. I actually wrote a blog called "Confessions of a shady supplement supplier", which was written in sarcasm to be like "This is how much stuff I can get away with." The goal of that blog post is trying to educate people on how to read labels and how to make sure you're buying from peop... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, I think that's what I love about our audience. We are trying to get people to think differently. Think about what to think about, for one, and then two, investigate what lies beneath; so what are the things in the things we're consuming, thinking, eating etc. And then more so, there may not be... |
\[48:23\] So long as you've got people that are rooting for the consumer, and not just the shareholders or stakeholders, or the profit keepers of the businesses - if that's what we're optimizing for, we've gotta optimize for the consumer, and we need people to optimize for that and be advocates of it. |
**Danielle Rath:** Absolutely. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** One of the things that I think is important too is - we talked about the crash relative to sugar, but how long does caffeine actually stay in your system? |
**Danielle Rath:** It's a couple hours, actually. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Really? |
**Danielle Rath:** It could be 6-7 hours, because caffeine has a half-life of 3 -- on the high side it's more like 5 hours... So that's how much time it takes for half of that dose to leave your body. So my problem with drinks that have a lot of caffeine is that -- let's say you have it at 3 PM, which is the hour most ... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** So it's a math equation. |
**Danielle Rath:** It's a math equation. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** So for our listeners to go "If at this time -- what time do I want to go to bed? And how much of X drink will be left in my system at that point in time?" |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. So math is not my strong suit. As much of a scientist as I am, math is really tricky. And even it's funny because people always talk about the half-life of caffeine, but I don't know what happens -- we don't talk about the full life. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Right?! I'm familiar with that half-life, too... Because it's all drugs; this is how long it lasts in your system. |
**Danielle Rath:** Exactly. The LD50 and then the half-life. So it's not like "This is how long it takes for 100% of caffeine to leave your body." I don't know. We just don't talk about that. But the math that I do when I'm making choices for myself, and the math I recommend for your listeners is 1) look at how much ca... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** So the other thing with that is caffeine isn't instantaneous in terms of its effects. |
**Danielle Rath:** The placebo effect is right away, but it takes like 20 minutes to kick in... Because even though it does cross the blood-brain barrier, it takes a good 15 minutes to get to your small intestine, where it's absorbed. And some of it - a lot of it - is absorbed through your stomach. But still, it takes ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I just imagine your brain kicking off, like "Read all systems! Here comes the caffeine!" and all the necessary components, so your body was like, "Get ready for it!", so they get ready for it; it's like the instant placebo effect you get. They get ready for it... "It's coming, it's coming!" and then... |
**Danielle Rath:** I mean, I honestly feel better when I crack open my caffeinated beverage, because it's like "Okay, I've got what I need to get through this day. We're good." Just the placebo, just the fact that I'm about to have it helps me-- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** The loops begin. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** This is so much like a habit loop, of like I don't actually have to have the dopamine hit before my brain is like "Send it! Send the troops!" \[laughter\] If only our brains could really speak, real-time... |
**Danielle Rath:** \[52:14\] I know... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It would be fun... And annoying. "Stop doing that!" |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** One of the reasons that I wanted to have our listeners hear you is relative to the work you've done, and how you've sort of created a mental framework that people can utilize... So you actually went ahead and took all of this and wrote a fabulous book, right? |
**Danielle Rath:** Two books. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Two books, that's right. What's the first one? |
**Danielle Rath:** The first one, my baby, the one that took the most amount of time to write, is called "Are you a monster or a rock start? A guide to energy drinks." And this one is available as an audiobook, which I recommend, because I got a comedian to read it, so it's way better. All of my dad jokes and my puns -... |
The second one is more about productivity and fatigue, and it's called "How to get shtuff done when you feel like poop." Essentially, paraphrasing, without the swear words. \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** When things hit the fan, this is what you read. |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Which I like, because you're talking to people who are in fatiguing environments, generally using caffeine to get amped up, and you're kind of maintaining the ability to be productive while being fatigued, or how to navigate all of those scenarios. |
**Danielle Rath:** Exactly. Because the first book is more about like "Alright, can you eat this? Is this safe?" The second book is more like "Alright, I'm exhausted. What do I eat?" It's not so much about safety as about "How do I get through this day, because I've had three hours of sleep for the last three days." |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Right?! And we talk about this a lot relative to -- I mean, a lot of people in tech, when they're using their brain, and you don't think about the way in which your brain is using energy, and then when you start off tired and the cognitive load... Sometimes it's like by noon, or ten... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** The stereotype is stay up all night, drink Red Bulls, drink Mountain Dew, drink Cokes, or be at the office fridge-full of X, whatever X might be... It could be Bang, I don't know... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Everybody is hanging out in the coffee room... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, the stereotype is massive amounts of coffee; fuel them - and "fuel them" being the troops, the people doing the work - with caffeine, essentially... And then obviously, learning from this conversation, in many cases it's really the sidecars, the sugars, the creatines, the other things that hav... |
**Danielle Rath:** Absolutely. I mean, if you think about it this way - and this is kind of the thesis of my second book - even people who've had a full night's sleep or all the caffeine they could possibly want can still feel mentally overwhelmed or physically exhausted. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Right. So it doesn't necessarily mean you need caffeine if you're tired, but maybe caffeine will help you when you are. |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes. It's knowing how much caffeine to have, at what point, and at what point to try other things. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** So you created a sort of pyramid relative to caffeine consumption, to help people go "Well, what stage am I at?" |
**Danielle Rath:** Yes... |
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