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\[20:04\] All of us have some sort of hybrid of that, and that's what helps us all work better, both with ourselves and with others. But we have to look at what mediums -- we've shared about how you've made changes with how you do the podcasting, so that it is more synchronous and you have more data with the visual exp... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. We had for a long time only met up via Skype, which did not have a video component requirement. And only recently - I would say in the last year, year-and-a-half maybe - we've started to incorporate Zoom. I would use Zoom or Hangouts or other things for meetings, but not for the podcast portio... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Not having that visual component with somebody else was very (I guess) disjointed and isolating. Obviously, there's a lack of data there, because I can't see the other person. And especially with a podcast, as you mentioned before, this idea of latency coming into play in an audio conversation. Unle... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So for a long time we operated without it at all, and only recently did we add that in, and for obvious reasons, we've gotten so much amazing feedback that this the way it should be, or should have been before. And just based on technical constraints, we've made that choice. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right. But the technology made a significant difference in opportunities, that weren't available once upon a time. I think about it just with how even kids do homework. I mean, I couldn't video-chat my friends when I was in school, and be like "What about this problem?" or "Here's where I'... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I mentioned the isolation or the missing component there... A lot of what's happening or has the opportunity to creep in in remote working is isolation, obviously, probably some anxiety because of that, and if disconnected long enough, potentially some depression. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah. So what I would offer is that part of what you lose is actually feedback. Part of how we build relationships is over time really imagine you're constructing a sort of 3D model of a person based on repeated interactions. I mean, you have a sense that's based on when you interface with... |
When I am more isolated and I don't have the interaction with co-workers, I sort of forfeit that additional information. Not to mention if I flip the lens back at myself, when I'm looking at feedback I get, like performance, I don't necessarily have to take in the feedback that my supervisor or peers are giving me, bec... |
\[24:23\] It's really a fascinating dynamic, I think, because there's no way that we're gonna opt out of relationships with other people. We need other people, just like you're talking about, to get jobs done. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It takes some self-discipline, that's for sure. You have to be strong-minded person. I don't wanna say strong-willed, because I think it doesn't give it enough depth. I think strong-minded -- and that's like an emotional intelligence kind of thing. It's potentially even a professional -- I don't kno... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah. You have to be purposeful. And I think for everyone, in going -- you know, I think about this a lot in just doing my life as pretty much operating independently from my practice, as well as being a wife, and a mom, and involved in other things, endeavors in life and relationships, th... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** It's probably harder to interface with co-workers in a certain way if you're sitting at Starbucks working, as opposed to if you're sitting at home. So "Hey, I'm gonna go do this other thing that's gonna benefit me by engaging with other people live, face-to-face", but then it also creates ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. That brings up a good point too, because because of the variant setting that people will be in, whether they're meeting or not meeting, you can have a lot of distractions come into play, you've got interruptions... Potentially, a lot of things that can frustrate you, that did not previously fr... |
I don't know, I'm just thinking about me in particular, because when my son comes in, I try to always make sure that my environment is welcoming to him, that he's not -- I don't say "Hey, come in and bother me during a podcast" or something, but there is limitations to that, some constraints to it. But I don't want him... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Sure. And I think especially now with the changes, talking about this in terms of decision fatigue, or cognitive load... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** \[28:05\] A fair amount of work from home or remote options for work involve a degree of cognitive demand. So if I'm using this decision-making and that living like Garmin, of going "Recalculating... Recalculating...", your brain might be like "And I'm done. I can't handle more distraction... |
That's very much what it's looked like with my schedule, and kids, and going "Okay, I have to be responsible, and help them get work done for school", and have some semblance of structure for them, while I still need to do my work responsibilities... And going "You know what - it didn't look like it usually does. That'... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** And I think that really is why people are attracted to remote work options, is because of this flexibility. It's different if -- like, you can't leave your job, because you have to be physically present for 40, 50, 60 or more hours a week. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** The one thing that's most attractive to people is getting that commute back. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Sure. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Whether it's on a bus, on a train, your own car, on a plane potentially even, if you're a private jetsetter... Who knows what our audience is doing out there...? But the point is that commute that you get back - you can reuse that time for things you didn't have time for before; maybe exercise in th... |
I think most people, at least here in Houston, trying to drive to -- if you live outside of town, in the suburbs, going into town, it's at least 45 minutes, if not close to an hour, depending upon if you hit the right traffic, at the right time. And if you're just five minutes or ten minutes later into the traffic, you... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah. It's interesting, there's a research study published in Psychological Science in the public interest which talked about this, and it said on average people who telecommute 15.1 hours a week or more actually report decreased job satisfaction. It's about being able to use this ability ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. And that just leads to flexibility, because for one, if I get to work -- for example, my commute to work is super-short, so I don't have to get to work potentially already with a certain amount of cognitive load, because I'm dealing with traffic, or danger... Driving to work is dangerous. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Sure. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right? So maybe you can speak to that, but... You know, I don't have to get to my work already taxed. I can come fresh. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah, sure. Clarifying that, what they're saying is, again, this hybrid. Telecommuting is good, but balancing this need for social interaction alongside having more autonomy and flexibility is going -- it's interesting living where I do, because the ferry system is a pretty routine aspect ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[32:19\] Yeah. That's true, too. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right? So there's different ways that you can go about doing it. So I have some days a week I'm at home, but then there's some days a week I'm going into the office, and really it allows meeting multiple needs at the same time. I forget where I was reading this, but talking about people wh... |
So with that, what I think is important, that Daniel Pink talks about, is this sense of purpose in what we do. So if I'm working for a company, or doing a job that is in line with how I feel like there's value or purpose, it too is going to improve that productivity. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Work-life blending versus work-life balance. I've always said work-life balance, and I think the fourth quadrant might have been Play. I don't know for sure, but based on what your list was, Play was missing from there. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We often will do family and do work really well, but forget the play. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right. And I think that this is really challenging for people. I mean, I think of myself in this, where my work is a form of play. So it gets modeled, and that I have to manage. This is something I really enjoy doing, and does give me a lot of meaning and good stuff. However, I also have t... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Going back to the ferry though... I like that you said it that way, because not all commutes are the same. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Sure. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So not all commutes have to be terrible. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Some commutes can actually be worthwhile. I like the idea of taking the ferry from one island to the other in Seattle - it gives you a chance to experience some nature. There's obvious reasons why people move to that area of the country, because it's so beautiful... But you get some wind, ... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** I think this sense of alignment and going "It fits for me" or "It's worth it for me", because there's always some aversive aspect of whatever we do. I think about the ferry too on the negative alternative - when you miss the ferry. When you're trying so hard to get home and you might be th... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[36:07\] Yeah. Well, especially if you like to take pictures, or just enjoy a bit of nature. You would almost design your life to get that, design that into this work-life blend. Maybe for some out there, as things eventually begin to normalize, this is a wake-up call for a lot of businesses and in... |
So now they get a chance to take a step back and say "Okay, I never thought this was possible before. Thankfully, I get a chance to do it. Maybe I'm not enjoying it so much right now", but eventually, you can start to design the kind of work you do, that is in line with the four quadrants, as you mentioned... And begin... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah. It's interesting, as you talk about this, Adam, because it just stands out to me how significant all data is. We can say "I don't like the feedback, I don't like the experience, I don't like..." - you name it. Or "I don't even like this entire episode that we're having to walk throug... |
Imagine working anywhere, and being like "I didn't like that item, so I threw it away. That cantaloupe. That box of food. That box from Amazon that I got, that was all mangled. I just threw it away, because I didn't like what it looked like. I didn't like how it made me feel." We can't learn, and so we want to be open ... |
I don't remember who it was, but it was some years ago, listening to a leadership seminar or conference, and this person emphasized how important it was to actually live close to your work... And it is challenging. When I relocated out here, I thought for sure I was going to have to make a significant commute between l... |
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