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**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Well, so you're saying almost at odds with one another... You say we do have a choice, and then you're saying "Well, kind of... Maybe not", based upon these systems... So I'm kind of confused, to some degree. But when we talk about system one and system two thinking, this is a choice our brain... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Correct. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We don't have an option of turning one on or off, or favoring one system over the other. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Well, right. Adam, you just highlighted why we have challenges when we talk about the brain... Because you're like "Well, Mireille, you said this and then you said that, and they don't go together." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right... \[laughter\] Well, this show started off very hopeful, like "Every choice you make is your choice, and you did it, there you go..." Now you're saying "Well, maybe not." |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Well, but what we're talking about is awareness... So this is why people come into therapy. I can't ever tell you how many times the referring reason people come in is they're like "I keep doing this thing, and I don't know why... I keep picking these people that I don't wanna pick" or "I ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** "I think I'm depressed...", that's the best one. I'm not saying that's a good thing, obviously, but "I think..." You're not even sure. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's how depressed you are. You're not even sure if you're depressed. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** \[23:53\] Right. And so if they don't have the awareness of themselves or how they've been trained... Like, I work with people for some time, and they'll sort of comment like "Gosh, I wish I knew this" or "I wish I would have come to therapy before I made X, Y or Z major decision", because... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Some would say sometimes that's a good thing... You can dig into the past, and the past gets you, so to speak... This aspect of like what you don't know is better off, to some degree... And then - yeah, that could be it. A slippery slope where you just start to dig into things that -- you know, this... |
Age 0 to 5 is, to some degree, an identity factor, because someone in your life told you who you were - potentially your parents, grandparents, and that impressive time of your life is when you sort of find out who you are. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Sure. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You spend your whole life wondering that, and then you turn -- suddenly, you're 25... \[laughs\] Suddenly, you know... But it's this aspect of when you start to look back at who you are and why you are, and you're like "Well, really a lot of this time was 0 to 5 or whatever age was when you found ou... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Well, sure. I mean, I would tweak that a little bit and say there's some things that no amount of digging would discover, because you can't totally know. Don't go back and try to dig up things that -- to some degree, the Why doesn't always make a difference. I only bring this point into co... |
One of the things we talked about in habit formation was the way in which we're more apt to do things that resonate or are consistent with how we see ourselves... So if I see myself as skilled in athletics, I'm probably more apt to take risks in anything athletically-oriented. |
So I'm saying that having an awareness of ourselves, or going "Look, I trained, I went to school, I put a major investment in this education to cultivate these skills, to get this job, to work at this company, and now I'm here... Now what? And I don't see any other choice." If I'm able to be aware of how all these piec... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, identity is a huge factor in these things, and I think the sooner you know who you are, so that you know what you should do or could do, the better off you might be long-term. Identity is such a key piece. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** It is. And that's why recognizing how you feel, the role that emotions play in your choice, and how different things make you feel - that's relative to the choices you're gonna make. Choices aren't good or bad. It's interesting - you know, different conversations I have, and fears that peo... |
I'm forgetting the story I read about some entrepreneur who went to Stanford, and was in her master's program, and I think she had a very successful family - doctors, attorneys, or scientists, whatever - but she called up her parents, because she's like "I'm gonna quit." I'm at Stanford, like "Hoo-rah! Here's this grea... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[28:12\] Right... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** So then changing and going "Look, you're not a failure if you don't finish something you thought you wanted." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Is the person's name Elizabeth Holmes? |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Tell me more. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, it would be ironic to reference her if that's the truth, because she's the founder of Theranos, which is a now-defunct health technology company that was in many ways fraudulent. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Oh, really? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah... Great example, but it's just ironic if that is in fact Elizabeth Holmes. She has an interesting story, and that's why that company and what she was doing was so beloved... Because she had that story. She quit school to be an entrepreneur; she quit school to build this company Theranos. And a... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** I'm wanting to say that wasn't the person I was thinking of, but... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Okay... Very similar then. Very similar. It would have been ironic though. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** It would have. And you know, I only say that -- and even if that were the case, Adam, there's other choices that happen. We can't look at just the one choice over whether or not that person chose to stay at Stanford or leave, and saying "If you leave your masters program, then you're going... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** So you can make inferences about... One of the things that in my field we talk about with research a lot is there's a big difference between causation and correlation. I'm not saying "Well, that then caused..." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Look, a lot of people wanna say that power corrupts, but to some degree, this sense of power or opportunity just reveals what's on the inside. So when there's opportunity to make other choices... Like, people talk about integrity, and integrity really is a choice. I don't have to always do... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You choose to. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah, yeah. And no everybody has the same mind. We can talk about different things, like if I'm going "Hey, awareness is a critical thing", I'm sure all of us can look back in our lives and remember some really negative experience which provided us a lesson in terms of noting that in our b... |
So to some degree, I'm saying we have to look at what's underneath the iceberg to sometimes recognize the motive behind our choices. In the same way, I could talk about this - choice - when we talk about awareness, but there's also defenses at play. Defense isn't bad, defenses are designed for self-preservation, for pr... |
I can talk about this in the context of therapy and going, a lot of people when we talk through contributing factors to why they are where they are, most people don't wanna blame their parents... And if they even talk about "Oh goodness, my parents had a part in how I turned out like I did", then they feel guilty, so t... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[32:24\] Yeah. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** So recognizing -- it doesn't mean that there aren't still negative consequences... So to at least understand how we were formed and how we go about ourselves in our day-to-day life makes a difference in terms of the choices that we see as available to us. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Do you think it makes sense to examine this from the lens of "I wanna know why things are the way they are" versus "Who is to blame?" |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** I don't think blame is even necessary. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, you said "vilify", so that's usually trying to find somebody to say "Well, it's their fault." |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Sure. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** To push it off on somebody else. I would be more interested to figure out "Why are things the way they are?", so that I can know what to do. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yes. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Not so much who to blame because circumstances are what they are. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Correct. That's just it. And some people I actually have to work with because they get very fixated on "Why is this the case?" and I'm like, okay, it kind of doesn't matter at this point, because you need to shift gears to going "Well, now what?" So if this was the case, if this is how you... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Well, the one thing - to sort of shine the light back on to hope - is that we can change. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yup. |
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