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old starter Hey Everybody, Im very new to using sourdough and had some given to me last October. I had been feeding it faithfully with water flour and sugar. But I started getting lazy and forgot about it and havent fed it at all (its sitting in the back of my fridge) for probably two months. Is it a gonner or can I re...	Revival Hi Jenniferw, I'd feed it - but I've no idea why you are adding sugar. I'd discard 50-75% of the old culture and refresh it with a mix of organic rye and an unbleached, unbromated flour. Continue the refreshments for a few days and you should be good to go. Had you baked with it before stashing it in the cool...
Help with very active sourdough starter I've been following S J Ross' sourdough baking 101,and am amazed at the activity my starter has achieved after 24hrs. It's June 27th 2010,I live in Cairns Qld.Australia and the daytime temp. is about 27 deg C (80 deg F).I combined 1cup of light rye flour with 1 cup of lukewarm wa...	The activity in the first day The activity in the first day or so is generally not due to yeast but some kind of bacteria. It usually takes another 2 or three days for this bacteria to die off and the yeasts to become more populated. How does it smell? Somewhat "off"(bacteria, bad), or more fruity(good)? http://www.the...
Sourdough loosing elasticity - please help Hi, I would like to ask for help with my sourdough breads. Even if the dough looks nice after kneading, it becomes extremely loose (sometimes even liquid) during the fermentation. And in times it is possible to handle and somewhat shape, it becomes completely flat during proof...	it's rye's fault rye involves a lot of proteolitic activity, thus in few hours your flour will turn into something resembling a glue. Generally proteolisis can be kept under control adding salt already in the biga, did you try it? I usually dissolve salt in the water, then use this water to dissolve the starter and pre...
Commercial 'Sauerteig' / Sourdough culture from "Seitenbacher" Hi all, I received two sachets of "Seitenbacher Natur Sauerteig" in a parcel from my nephew, who lives in Germany. I had asked him to send me some caustic soda [NaOH—Sodium Hydroxide, food-grade] for pretzels and he included some spelt flour, some whole spe...	I brought a packet back from I brought a packet back from a recent trip to Germany, where the Seitenbacher product is available in many supermarkets. I ignored the instructions and fed mine a couple of times with equal weights of rye flour and water. The result looks, smells and performs pretty much the same as my ho...
Starter/Levain Smells Like Trash Having not baked in a few months, I recently re-started some starters on my kitchen counter. I began with the german sourdough starter from Daniel Leader's Local Bread, as I had recently acquired a 25lb bag of Dark Rye flour from Bob's Red Mill. I use a glass bowl with a plastic lid f...	My starters smelled kind of My starters smelled kind of funky the first 3 or 4 days, especially the rye one, but now, about 5 weeks later, they all smell sweet. I sort of wish they were a little more sour, but I guess that will come with time, and experience. There are many threads here about starters, and starting sta...
Too-sour, alcohol-smelling starter Hello, I've looked around a bit and didn't find my exact question, so here goes: 11 days ago, I started a sourdough starter. My approximate schedule was as follows: Day 1: 40g pineapple juice, 40g rye flourDay 2: 40g pineapple, 40g rye flourDay 3: Discard half (eyeballed), 50g p...	Means to rescue Hi, I would discard all but 10g of your starter. Feed that with 60g water and 65g flour, and then return to your days 4-7 regime. Don't eyeball the amount you keep, weigh it, then you know you are keeping everything in proportion. Sorry I assume eyeball means "guess", but I'm UK based, so it's a t...
SD Baguette w/baking stone I'm wondering if I can improve my loaves even more by using a baking stone with the SD baguettes I bake. Will it give me more height? Does a baking stone preclude the use of the new "W" shaped perforated baking pan I just obtained? (see the end of the "seeking SD loaf height" thread for a p...	Baking stone I am no expert here but have baked my fair share of sourdoughs. I have a 1 inch thick ceramic tile in my gas oven which i preheat to 200'C and turn the oven off. The heat of the stone will rise up to 230-240'C. I usually rinse my baking stone with running water after every use so some of that water draws i...
Lepard's Rye-I have a bad feeling about this... Well, I don't know what is up with my flour or technique, but once again I followed the instructions and it is just... way. too. moist. I have loaves rising and they do seem to be rising, but I'm afraid they are not going to keep their shape at all. However, in this ca...	Wow. It worked! With that incredibly soft, pasty consistency, it still held shape (more or less) in my old oven and we had 100% sourdough rye this morning. Wow. Thanks, Dan! I did not get much oven spring, though, even though (as I have learned to do for his recipes, mainly because of my oven style) I cooked it at ...
Reviving Starter Hello, All, I'm relatively new here and learning a lot! And having fun, too. So, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I bought a sourdough starter from King Arthur Flour several months ago and have maintained it according to their directions. Of course, the more I learn about sourdough, the mor...	Reviving Starter Do you have a kitchen scale? A scale that can measure down to grams is one of the best investments you can make to raise the level of your baking at home and invaluable for keeping your starter fit and healthy, especially when you're not baking in high volumes. While you haven't specifically stated so,...
Feeding starter...or, "if it ain't broke..." I am proud to say that I created my own sourdough starter, from scratch, on the first try! It is a few months old and I couldn't be more thrilled. It's active, delicious, and (well, you guys will understand) my pride and joy. That being said, I have a question about feeding ...	no matter what the reason If your starter should happen to change and show signs of underfeeding, then it might be time to change the feeding or look for a slightly cooler place to rest the starter. One has to be flexible adapting to seasonal changes that naturally affect the eating habits of the starter. Right now i...
Starter Troubleshooting I had been keeping a 100% hydration starter, which I was feeding 1:1:1 about 3 times per day. Our house stays around 75-76ºF and my starter was doubling in about 4 hours, tripling by 6 hours, and was being fed at 8 hours. I'd been doing this for right at 2 weeks -- the starter, itself, was 2 wee...	Try this Suggestions: 1) Try feeding once per day and place in refigerator one hour after feeding. 2) Likewise, remove from refigerator one hour prior to feeding. I've kept a 100% rye starter this way for several years now, with varying hydration ratios. I usually feed it once a week and will build it up the day prio...
Need some starter storage advice Hi there. I'm sure the answers I'm looking for exist somewhere on this site, but a search brings up an exhaustive amount of (great) information, so here goes: I've slaved over my scale and coutertop for the past month, but have now happily created a new starter, now just over 30 days ol...	A plan Rick, You didn't say how much you saved of your 66% conversion, but I suspect it was quite a bit. Sourdough starter at room temperature, when first introduced to a cold refrigerator, will continue to expand until the the entire mass reaches 40°F (normal refrigerator temperature), at which time the yeast and bact...
Starter Gone Moldy Hello, I bought a sourdough starter and now it is covered in white mold. I cut off the outer edges of the dough to salvage what I could, but then found the white mold was also growing inside in any crevasse between the dough. I have followed the instructions for feeding and maintaining a healthy sour...	Sad to hear, bread10 Some more information would be useful, please, since we aren't standing in your kitchen with you. Did the sourdough starter you purchased arrive with mold growing on it? Or is the mold something that has appeared during your feeding regime? What is the recommended feeding regime you have been foll...
Dough doesn't get elastic / tears Hello, I'm new here and also new to making bread and baking in general. I've tried making sourdough bread a few times and thought the end product loaf came out good, I can't help but feel frustrated that my dough never comes out glossy elastic like I see in every single video/dough mak...	I found this: https://www I found this: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/12269/dough-tears-when-kneadingTo add, I've used 104% hydration dough and haven't really experienced tearing much so I don't think it's a hydration issue. You should also post your recipe to get help with it. There are lots of pros on here, I'm j...
Seeking More SD Loaf Height Thanks to TFL, my sourdough loaves are more uniform, tender, and consistently tasty. Now I'm raising the bar, and want taller loaves. My daughter says, "Mom, these loaves are so flat!" (I think she wants more surface area for honey and butter:>) I currently let the dough rise in a ceramic ...	Bullseye! Hi, EvaGal. Unless you are working with very low-hydration dough, your loaves need some lateral support while proofing. This can be provided by a banneton (or home made equivalent) or by a linen couche, which you "pleat" to provide walls to support the sides of the loaves. You can also emulate a linen couche ...
Eric's fav rye Hi all, I've been baking rye from Eric's fav and having great sucess as far a final results are concerened but............. The dough is rather sticky and I use flour on board but still have some problems. Do you use oiled board or what do you use? Thanks Patrick from Modesto	I just did a serch and I foun my answes. I guess i have to keep re-learning what I know. Patrick from Modestp
New Sourdough attempt gone wrong I have been making excelent sourdough from my own starter for about 5 months now. I have been using the recipe from KAF which you can find here http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/extra-tangy-sourdough-bread-recipe. I have been omiting the sour salt as it is optional and my starter...	Elasticity and hydration This sounds as though the retardation period allowed the acid of the sourdough hydrolyze the gluten during the retardation period. Acids and enzymes promote this break down of the gluten structure. Sour dough does not need the retardation period to develop flavor. The additional water is a na...
Liquid Levain - How do I know its ready? I'm wondering if anyone can proivde me insight as to how do I know if my levain is ready? I'm trying to make Vermont Soudough by Jeffrey Hamelman. My kitchen is measuring 28 degree celsius. Much higher than the recommended temperature. The levain looks healthy and bubbly. It...	Hi Jenny Take a look on pages Hi Jenny Take a look on pages 147 and 148 for Hamelman's Production Notes for the Formulas in the Levain Breads Chapter, in which he covers preparing the levain culture. Your description seems to match his....are you willing to taste it as he suggests? He does give some suggestions for sl...
Gluten gone bad I have a gluten question: What could have possibly happened to the gluten structure during the first rise of my bread today? This was a cinnamon/raisin bread which I've done many, many times with dry commercial yeast (recipe from RL Beranbaum's "The Bread Bible"), but this time, tried with a starter. My...	Gluten diagnosis Hi, Rick. it sounds like an attack of protease, all right. I think your dough was over-fermented. Seven hours is a long time at a temperature in the mid-70's, unless you used a tiny amount of starter. My seat-of-the-pants estimate is that a 2 1/2 to 3 hour fermentation is probably adequate, with folds ...
Does firm or liquid starter matter when you only need 1-2 T.?	(Now I think I've figured out (Now I think I've figured out the pics -- now I'll try to see if I can get the text with it : ) Hello again, The above pic is Hamelman's Pain au Levain. It's the first I've made from his book, and I made a half recipe of it since one 1 1/2 lb. loaf is all we need. I keep a firm starter a...
Successful Sourdough! Need help with pics! Many thanks to all who have contributed such educational posts and inspiring pics! I have baked bread for over 20 years, but this website inspired me to try sourdough. I began the starter from Maggie Glezer's "Artisan Baking" two weeks ago today, and it has exceeded my expec...	Posting photos Posting photos FA/nhuman: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2960/posting-photos-faq These steps from poster Debra Wink have also been said to be very helpful:" 1.Click on the tree symbol (next to HTML at the top of the comment box) and the Insert/edit image box will appear.2.Click on the little symbol t...
By how much volume should a healthy starter increase by within a 8hr period @ 70 degrees? I have been feeding my starter every 12 hours since friday since I have moved the culture from the fridge to the kitchen. I am doing this because I noticed that it would take a LONG time for the starter to rise the dough. I was wo...	at 70°F? Add some more time. That's under ideal and rather cool. It should double in 8 to 12 hours and maybe need more time at 70°F. If you want it to go 4 times in size, it will need more food. (or reduce the starter amount to 10g and then use 40g flour to feed.) And get the temps up to at least 75°F.
New starter I have been given a starter in powdered form. I want to get it activated. The instructions that came with it say to use white flour. I would rather have a rye starter. Can I use the powdered starter and activate it with rye in place of white or should I start it out as white and convert it to rye later? Thi...	First thing I'd want to know is the history of that powder. Do you know the origin? Transporting or shipping "heirloom" starters in powder form is common, but so is selling nonsense in the form of flour, sugar and commercial yeasts and having the user treat it like a sourdough. Remember that these starters represent a ...
Thin, crispy crust evades me... I have been making sourdough for the better part of 6 months now as our only source of bread at my house. My family, for the most part, loves it. It is mildly sour in the crumb, an tastes pretty darned good. Our only complaint (mine and theirs, equally..) is my crust. I usually end up wi...	Thin crispy crust Mike, I'm sure the more expert bakers will chime in, but here is my method. I preheat my oven and stone to 500, slide the sourdough loaf still on parchment onto the stone and immediately cover it with a large stainless steel bowl which has been rinsed with hot water. I turn the heat down to 450 and...
First bake in a while Been a while since I did a sourdough. Long story but I ended up making a new starter.50% Bread Flour, 25% Whole Wheat, 25% Rye, 80% hydration. Turned down the oven a bit compared to what I used before but it's still a bit darker than I was aiming for.Considering the amount of whole grains, I'm qui...	Love the color, bet it tastes Love the color, bet it tastes great.
Starter advice New to the site, so hopefully I'm posting in the right spot. My new "from-scratch" starter is almost 3 weeks old, very lively, and getting feedings at room temp (70-74 F) twice daily. It smells wonderful, and has already turned out one loaf, unfortunately failed due to delfation trying to get the 68% moi...	Welcome, Rick D Good for you on creating a successful sourdough culture! The next time you bake, apply a generous coating of rice flour or a 50-50 mix of rice and AP flour to your banneton. Rice flour is like teflon. When your proof is done, place a piece of parchment over the top of the banneton, then your peel (or...
Firm starter to liquid starter? I saw a recipe for sourdough pancakes on King Arthur's website, and it called for two cups of liquid starter. I have about 1/4 cup left over when I refresh my firm Maggie Glezer starter, but nothing like two cups! I did make half a recipe of the pancakes and they turned out OK (they al...	In pancakes it's not going to be a big deal, the point is to use up your excess starter mostly. To switch over your firm starter - I don't remember what hydration the MG starter is but let's say 50% - you know that to make it up as liquid starter at 100%, you need to add water. In this case, you need 50% of the flour w...
Lazy firm starter Hi, I have converter my wet starter to a firm starter according to Maggie Glezer instructions in an attemp to make it more potent . I tried to make sourdough bread whith it many times before and it always lack vitality. Most of the time, it took 12 hours to double in size instead of 4 hours like most ...	Be happy, don't worry Hi Boulanger, I don't think you have a problem. A sourdough culture is a living organism, responding to the many variables in our homes, including room temp and the temperature of the water we mix into it. If your firm culture is crowning within eight hours, use it. I would be more concerned wit...
A not-so-sour sourdough? My husband loves sourdough bread. I can't argue with the quality of the bread, but it's usually too sour for my taste. So, while it may sound crazy, I'd like to be able to make a less-sour sourdough. Are there things I can do to accomplish this? I'd like to make my own starter from wild yea...	I think if you do a firmer I think if you do a firmer starter, lactic bacteria will dominate and leave a less sour dough compared to the acetic dominated wet starter. I think proofing temperature also has something to do with it....cooler -> less sour? Yes I think the GI will still be lower relative to non sourdough s...
Bulk retardation vs retarding shaped loaves Dear All I have been working on a simple sourdough recipe based on the following ratio: 100% : 53% : 52% : 1.3% flour:100% hydrated active starter:water:salt After initial mixing, autolyse and a further mix I let the dough bulk prove for 2 hrs with 2 folds. The recipe I'm u...	Have I broken the law? Hey folks - being new to forums, I hope I havent broken some fundamental forum rule...
Leader's spelt loaf He says it should rise in 2 hours, but after 4, mine has barely risen. A similar recipe on the net calls for an overnight rise. Anybody have experience with this?	Depends on a bunch of factors Depends on a bunch of factors but I normally ignore the times in the books. I bake the bread when it is ready and sometimes that is an overnight rise.
Can't coax my first starter past day 4 Dear all, What a fabulous site and what wonderful people. If my starter was unenthusiastic about baking you guys sure are the opposite. I would dearly like to join your ranks but have a problem getting started. It's my second attempt to create a starter which I'm following from...	You've been invaded! It happens, it just takes longer. Don't forget to discard and feed. Don't let it sit and starve. Giving it fresh water and flour helps. Reduce to one tablespoon starter and feed. Discarding helps get rid of the waste products. A shot of unsweetened pineapple juice might also help for the next...
Revived my neglected starter! Due to various reasons, one of which is a bit of laziness, my 100% SD starter lived for ~5 months in the fridge, un-touched. Now that I have the time to start baking again, I pulled it out fearing the worst. There was hooch, a bit of mold, and all of it that I could see had turned a bizzar...	Now's the time Now's the time to consider drying and saving a portion of your starter for a Plan B should this happen again and you're not able to revive your pet. The dried starter is also handy to give to family and friends when they start hinting around that they'd like you to bake more for them.
Whole Wheat Starter to White My starter (creeping on a year old now) is kept around 75% hydration and 100% whole wheat. I feed it weekly at a 2:3:4 ratio. It always respond great to feedings and when making bread with a greater proportion of whole wheat it rises very quickly. I've noticed recently however, that when ...	About those nutrients..... Maybe not more, but perhaps different? I've seen a similar response to a food change with my starters, so now my normal routine is to start converting them over a few days before a planned bake. Gradually upping the percentage of white or wheat to get to a mix similar to what I intend to bake...
Today's Bake I'm a little dissatisfied and happy with today's bake. Yesterday I worked with my starter and proofing, and retarded overnight to increase my sourdough taste. I've settled on Norwich's More-Sourdough recipe to develop my skills and techniques. Everything went fine, but I think I over proofed my dough in th...	Looks familiar And very much like the loaves I've been able to make. Not likely to grace the cover of an artisan bread publication, but edible just the same. Not many get thrown out. I vote we stay with it till we get it right!
Gummy, sticky crumb Hi All,I am a newbie bread baker and have now baked 2 sourdough loafs, with relatively similar outcomes. Let me explain my situation and maybe someone could point me in the right direction;I live in Fiji so the ambient temp is a very humid 33C/91F degrees during the day and 25C/77F at night. I have ...	Some follow-up questions 1. What is the baking temperature? Have you checked to ensure that the actual oven temperature matches the selected temperature?2. Do you preheat the dutch oven? If yes, how long?3. Do you bake the dough straight from the refrigerator or do you allow it to come to room temperature first?Not k...
So what happened? I did my usual procedure but when I preshaped my boules, they fell apart. I shaped them as best as I could and literally threw them into the bannetons. They are heavy dead feeling hunks of dough. They are in the fridge now but I don’t have any hope that I’ll have anything decent to bake in the morning...	Well came out slightly better than expected but they are still bricks!
My timelapse video of sourdough starter Details in on the video site, but basically, it's just a simple timelapse video I threw together of a 1:4:4 feeding, over a ~16 hour period. Water used was ~40-50 degrees (f), so it took a little longer to wake up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKOOd8z__28	Glad it was timeslapsed. Glad it was timeslapsed. What I found interesting was how long the peak time lasted. I was always concerned that I'd miss the peak time because I thought it was a short time frame.Thanks
Starter VS fermentation time Does the time your stater takes to double determine how long the dough will need to complete bulk fermentation ? My starter always takes 12 hours to double after feeding (I have constant temperature in my house at 24 Celsius) . I tried BBA basic sourdough recipe that calls for a 4 hours of...	My thoughts... An important consideration in all this is the expansion ratio involved. For example, when I feed my starter I "double it" using a ratio of 2 parts starter to 1 part flour and 1 part water by weight. And it peaks in about eight hours. If I raise the espansion ratio to five times (1 part starter plus 2 par...
Our daily bread Or rather my daily bread, as I'm the one who eats it. Not diabetic, but we watch the carbs and this sourdough bread appears to have nominal affect on blood sugar. Typical bake for me is one small loaf...about 400 to 450 grams.....that will take over a week or two to eat: I'll slice the whole loaf, fr...	Just add oil and pepper I can visualize how your beautiful loaf will look when torn and dipped into olive oil and a few grinds of black pepper. The open crumb filled with the golden oil and the pepper flakes bathing in the oil. Nice job ...
Winter - Keeping the temperature and humidity just right Dear all I live in Sydney, Australia and now that the colder months are upon us I'm finding it difficult to anticipate proofing time and the lenth of time between starter feeds. Any tips on creating a DIY proofing cabinet minus the $$$$? Ideally I'd like for it ...	A couple things you can do. Stick some water in the microwave, nuke the water and put your starter in there with the door closed between feedings and when the microwave is not in use. Alternatively, you can also stick your starter in the oven with the light turned on. I have also heard of users putting their starters o...
Starter, levain, poolish or biga - what's the difference? Hi everyone, Just wondering what the difference is (or not) between these? Or are they just language differences? Thank you!	Glossary http://www.thefreshloaf.com/handbook/appendix-glossary
Hybrid sourdough. Can this be converted to "pure" sourdough? I stumbled on the recipe at the link here, and was pretty happy with the results. Though a bit more sour flavor would be really great. It does "cheat" a bit and use instant yeast as well as sourdough starter. Is it possible to remove the instant yeast, and...	Absolutely, chuck out the yeast All it takes is more time for the starter to do it's thing, or you could add more starter. The amounts aren't so important as the need to allow the natural yeast in the starter to develop the flavor and the sourness. Lee
Sourdough Conversion - check math please? Hi there! I have a few recipes that call for 166% hydration starter and mine is 100%. I've done some math and logic. Could someone please check them both for me? * 166% hydration starter = 100 units flour + 166 units water = 266 total units. * Say I need A grams of 166% hydra...	You got your algebra You got your algebra right. Or just take your starter and add in 1/3rd its weight in water.
Am I OK Here? Here is one of my first sourdough boules (2nd), but it doesnt seem as dark as some of the other pictures I've seen here. It's a 2 lb boule baked for 28 minutes at 450 degrees. Baked with steam first 15 minutes with baking lid and finishing internal temp is 205 degrees. 28 minutes doesn't seem like a lot o...	Underbaked? Twenty-eight minutes for a two-pound loaf is pretty quick. The blisters are an indication the dough was retarded. Nothing wrong with blisters, although the French might disagree. What does the crumb look like? Are you following someone's recipe? It's a pretty boule.
Seeking Advice on Creating a Whole Wheat Starter from Carl's Dried Starter Hi Everyone. I recently received my Carl's starter in the mail and I would like to use it to create a whole wheat starter. The instructions to revive Carl's starter indicate to use all-purpose flour (here is a link to the instructions if you ar...	Starting the Starter The instructions given seem good. I would delete the next-to-the-last paragraph about adding vinegar and/or commercial yeast. That is unnecessary and may even be harmful. You may use all-purose, bread, rye, or whole-wheat flour. I suggest you get the starter going to the point where it will doub...
Super Sourdough? It's just turned 2:00am where I live, but I found this before heading to bed. I am too sleepy to read it all AND check the sources...if any... http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100321182911.htm Interesting? Any comments? I hope this isn't wasting anyone's time. I'm going to bookmark this lin...	here is a link to an abstract of the parent scientific paper http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WFP-4WSRF1C-5&_user=4420034&_coverDate=10%2F31%2F2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=... Sounds promising. David G
Why does SD Bread get more sour with time? Why does SD Bread get more sour with time?There is a noticeable increase in sour flavor if the bread is allowed to rest for 24hr or so. Does anyone have an explanation?The sour flavor is enhance by waiting 24hr to sliceThe sour flavor also changes characteristics (flavor profi...	I don’t know if this is fact but in my little mind I thought that as the bread's moisture is reduced the percentage of acid increases 🤷🏼‍♂️
First Attempt at Sourdough Starters/Seed Culture This is my first attempt at trying to create a starter and I think that mine is dead before it ever lived. I am using the guidelines in Peter Reinhart's Artisan Breads Every Day. I am coming up on five days (started it Wednesday afternoon, it is now Sunday morning), a...	Starter What's your feeding process like?
orange "hooch"? on aging pizza dough I currently have a batch of pizza dough (Jeff Varasano's recipe with the amount of sourdough starter per pie slightly increased) aging in my fridge. It's been in there for 2 days now and is rising somewhat more slowly than I'd expect. Over the past day and a half each of the three ...	oiled container? Did you oil the containers before you put the dough in? That happens to my pizza dough in the fridge, especially if I'm a little heavy handed with it. It works it's way up the sides and makes this mungy looking ring around the top of the dough. The color gets funny sometimes too, darker. Doesn't bo...
Levain Angst I don't know if this is the right place, but I just baked my first loaf with a new levain. I made it according to Dan Lepard's instructions in "The Handmade Loaf". It looks exactly like the pictures in his book, and did rise. However, my bread did not. Well, it rose a little bit over four hours (not do...	Which recipe? Hi MmeZeeZee, Which recipe did you use from The Handmade Loaf?
Struggles with sluggish sourdough starter I have just relocated to San Francisco, and in keeping with the spirit of the place (plus my graduation to a kitchen larger than a closet) tried my hand with sourdough starter. I'm using Peter Reinhart's 4-day procedure (using first pineapple juice and coarse rye, then water an...	Temps- At 68 degrees things will move pretty slow. Might think about getting a styrofoam cooler and putting your new starter in there. You can add a liter of very hot water in a canning jar ever time you feed. I'd stay with the rye flour until you're sure it's really lively but that's just me. Also, Debra Wink (at leas...
My stiff dough levain is no longer rising Hello all, I am very new to sourdough, having created my first (rye) sourdough in January, and I could really use your expert advice. I've been using my stiff dough levain since I created it (from my rye sourdough) 3 months ago, and, while it always took a full 12 hours to do...	Flour? Hi Gert, what flour are you using to refresh it?
Proofing Baskets I'm ready to try proofing baskets. Is there a preferred brand or source or is this something I can "wing" at home with a mixing bowl and cloth lining? Tricks, tips or other?	Collander- For a first proofing basket a large collander (the big plastic kind for rinsing veggies) will work well. Just line with a cloth. Once you decide you like the method, there are all sorts of places to get them. I think that maybe the SFBI has pretty good prices. You can also hunt for tightly weaved baskets at ...
How quickly does your sourdough starter rise? Hi I'm trying to get my starter to produce a more sour flavour. It's about 3 months old, and I feed it pretty much daily, with Hovis extra strong white, sometimes Allinson wholemeal, and sometimes Rye. Sometimes a mixture of white & rye, or white and wholemeal. So it's a...	Some starters aren't as sour My starter peaks at about 4-6 hours, but sometimes super sour flavor is not present in all starters. I know my starter personally will not produce really noticeable sour bread. I've tried cold fermenting, room temp, warm, it does not matter some starters just cannot produce super sour bread...
Happy Yeast! I made my normal five pounds of sourdough boules yesterday and after a long winter and cool spring it was a delight to have my yeast back at its happiest temperature - around 75 degrees. The timing was easy and the results were rewarding. These are straightforward, simple loaves - 100 grams of 100% star...	Beautiful! Wow, just look at that crumb between the bubbles! Fantastic! Happy yeast makes happy indeed!
Mother Starter was fine, dough isn't proofing... I'm rising a Pain au Levain from PRs Artisan Breads Everyday. The mother starter is healthy, and when I made the starter yesterday it doubled as expected. I made the dough this morning; it is supposed to proof at room temp for 3 to 4 hours, and double by 4. It's been 3 3...	Put it into the fridge and take it out tomorrow, 8 or 16 hrs in the fridge shouldn't make too much of a difference. You can shape it now and in the morning with warm hands to speed warming up if you have to. Putting it into the oven with the light on might mean getting up in the middie of the night to bake it. No fu...
Sourdough starter Hi, I ordered a Zojirushi bread machine from KAF. I also purchase a Crock and they are sending me fresh sourdough starter with it. This will be my first try at baking bread. I am intimidated by the though of feeding a sourdough starter daily, and all the waste with feeding and discarding. I may ...	storing starter I store mine at 100% hydration in the refrigerator for a month without refreshing. Then I mix the starter and discard most of it. The remainder I refresh in two stages (8 to 12 hours apart) with ratio of starter:flour:water = 1:1:1 at each stage. The starter is rearing to go after the second stage ha...
steam I am using a crude but effective method for producing steam during the first phase of baking sourdough. The steam is enough to fog my glasses when opening the oven door, so it seems adequate and I get pretty impressive spring in the loaves. But it made me wonder if I am producing enough steam to leave off the cov...	I don't have any input for I don't have any input for you re: baking in a DO without the lid, but am curious what you do to generate steam. It sounds effective enough for baking on a stone, etc.
Merlin's Magic (by the book) After some of the comments on my other post, I tried another recipe, KAF's Merlin's Magic Sourdough. This recipe omitted the sugar, but still used the Vital Wheat Gluten which I used to boost protein and make a softer crumb. I took the recipe, by volume, but I did weigh at each process. Bas...	Nice looking boule... and lovely scoring! Anything that looks that good ought to taste good! Larry
Sourdough and metal- Just a word of advice. Don't keep starter in anything with a reactive metal. That includes aluminum foil. My CROB (cinnamon raisin oatmeal bread blob) ate holes in the aluminum foil while retarding in the fridge during a long rest this week. The stainless steel bowl (I'm pretty sure stainless is sa...	Clean SS Pots with Sourdough! I discovered 15 years ago that if a stainless steel pot had charcoal"ish" burned on food that would take lots of time to remove manually, coat it with sourdough starter and leave overnight. Voila! A clean and shiny pan:>) I believe it worked on copper too. If your pots are expensive, e...
Finally - I heard my bread sing!! I managed to bake a small but rather tasty loaf of white SD bread this weekend using nothing but starter. When I pulled it out of the oven it looked a little mis-shapen, but as it started to cool I could hear the crust crackle!! I was soooo excited, I've never had that experience bef...	Congratulations! It sure is a memorable moment! Glad you enjoy putting bread on the table! Mini
Another question on starters... Does the type of flour affect how your starter behaves? IE: bread flour vs all purpose flour? And does going from brand to brand affect how things go as well? I recently switched my whole wheat starter from one brand of bread flour to another, and noticed that it basically hasn't ripened...	Whole wheat ferments faster than white flour so it will just take a little bit longer. Let is stand out a little bit longer before refrigerating.
"Alaska Jack's" sourdough starter a hybrid or the real thing? I just received a packet of the "Alaska Jack's Sourdough Starter" off of ebay and am concerned that it is not truly Alaskan Sourdough. To me it seems like some kind of gimmicky/touristy hybrid. The ingredients for one thing: bleached enriched flour, salt, fu...	Doesn't sound good Jesus, that doesn't sound good at all. A starter should, in my opinion, only contain flour and water. The fungal enzymes are a natural part of it. I know that some people add juices and stuff to their starter, but surely not all these acids. How did they advertise the product? Regards from Irelan...
New to starters--Unsure about feeding I have a 6 day old AP flour starter. Today was the first day I switched over to AP flour and water from rye and orange juice. This morning I fed him and he doubled and collapsed in 4 hours so I fed him. Ive been watching him and I noticed that he's doubling again and it's been a...	Go 1:2:2 (at least) If it's rising that quickly, I would definitely increase the water and flour in your feedings. Try 1:2:2 and see how it does. If it still rises quickly, increase the ratio further. Good luck!
Are we there yet..? Are we there yet..? I find myself asking this question all the time! For example, Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough, the recipe states to bulk ferment for 2.5 hours. The problem is that I'm not seeing considerable rise during this time...the dough does not feel "pillowy" or full of gas. just feels like a...	Too cold, look for a warmer place! And yes 2.5 hours is for a dough temp of 76°F not 63°F. The dough cools down very quickly with those temps. You should expect the dough to rise about as fast as your starter does. So 2.5 hours is nothing! (pages 153-157) Which one of the three are you making? Mini
For sourdough devotees Susan (Wild-Yeast) has posted some very interesting information about the health benefits of sourdough at her Wild Yeast blog. References included. Happy reading.	Wanna live on a Greek Island Hey Lindy, I want to live on a Greek Island and bake sourdough bread for a sustainable and life affirming adventure with my wife...for no one loves Greece more than she! Best wishes Andy
Haven't Mastered The "FEEL" yet Yesterday I started my recipe for a Sourdough. My starter has been aging for 5 months and is active, but not as sour as I would like. I used a cup of this starter before feeding. Sometimes I use a bit of WG Rye to keep the yeasties happy. And from time to time I'll add a teaspoon of pine...	A reasonable suggestion A reasonable suggestion for you is change over from using volume measurements to using weight measurement of the ingredients. That will help you in maintaining the proper hydration, flour to water ratio, and to obtain consistent results. This simple step has made a big difference for many bakers...
Dead starter? I am currently on day 4 of the levain starter from Peter Reinhart's Crust and Crumb and have growing concerns. The only difference from the recipe is that I used all wheat flour for day 1 and then half wheat and half white for day two then all white for days 3 and 4. Day 1 was just fine, there was a signi...	Your starter Your starter isn't dead yet. Keep feeding it every day and it will start to get poofy and yummy again. Your starter is currently in a bit of a limbo so to speak, and with regular feedings it will come back. Don't give up!
science of sourdough feeding What exactly happens when you feed a starter?Say you have a starter with population density of X yeast/bacteria cells per gram of starter. After you feed it, the density is X/3 for a 1:1:1 feeding (or X/5 for 1:2:2, etc.). Eventually the density will reach X again. Does that happen when the...	Any starter that has matured Any starter that has matured (reaches the proper balance) is technically ready as it will leaven bread - sooner or later. Concentration will determine the sooner or the later. Highest concentration is when the starter no longer rises after stirring. X high in Y time is irrelevant. Now you h...
Sourdough Bread Crust My first question on the forum is what to add to my sourdough bread to tenderize the crust. I've made some progress in the right direction by adding 1T olive oil to the dough, and to the first rising bowl. Why? A sensitive filling. It's a six month long saga off-topic! EvaGal	Tender crust Hi, EvaGal. Welcome to TFL! Enriching your dough with milk (substituting for some of the water) will result in a more tender crust and crumb. You can also add some potato to the dough. You can soften the crust by brushing it with milk or butter right after it comes out of the oven. Now, my advice would be ...
Question about Hamelman's Mixed Flour Miche....... So, as some of you may note this is not a time sensitive cry for help.....at least on that front I am imrpoving. There is actually forethought involved....heheheeeee. Anyways, can anybody tell me why it says in this Mixed flour miche recipe(page 166 in "Bread") that it...	Ash content Hi Christina, I think it will be due to the high ash content in the leaven. Note also Jeffrey Hamelman's comment in 1. Stiff textured leaven regarding ripening and time. A high extraction flour, as the author says is about 92% of the whole grain. All the enzymes in the mineral matter found in the more f...
Why "discard"??? Hello to all, I have a question that may seem obvious or ignorant so I will have to ask you to excuse me: Why is it that in all the tutorials regarding how to make a sourdough starter, they all say (after about Day 4) to "discard four-fifths (or half) and replace with equal amount of flour and water". ...	Exactly as Maliberty said, If you keep feeding your starter with an appropriate amount of flour and water without discarding some (or using some for making bread), in a few weeks you will have an enormous amount of starter wich you wouldn't be able to continue feeding (the cost of flour will be huge), and anyway there ...
Stiff vs. liquid sourdough- effect on final dough I have been baking with sourdough starters for quite a while now. I am maintaining a stiff (5o% hydration) white starter, but converting it to liquid in some cases, depending of the recipe. I have noticed that when I use a stiff starter, the dough rises less during bulk...	Agreed Rockfish42, I definitely agree with the first part of your post. I think issues of sourness are more complex than a short answer like this can do justice to. Best wishes Andy
How much starter to keep? I want to get a handle on my new starter. This was begun on April 1 2010 (1 month ago). My current starter is ~2 cups or so and I'm realizing I am throwing out a LOT of flour. I've seen some videos where folks pull out what look like 1 quart jars of starter (that seems like a Huge amount!)....	I don't know what is "best", I don't know what is "best", but my current way of making things is to keep 50 gr of starter. I usually need 200 gr or so, so I either feed it 1:2:2 to get 250 gr of fresh starter or, if it has been sleeping in the fridge for more than a few days, discard all but 17 gr, feed it 1:1:1 to ge...
shaping, then reshaping-how does this affect dough rise? so, i shaped a loaf of whole wheat sourdough that had been allowed to ferment overnight. i decided about 4 hours later that the vessel i had used as a replacement banneton was not actually big enough, so i cut the dough in half, and reshaped into two loafs. becau...	Very hard to speculate. Hope you're keeping notes. Especially on temperature and fermenting times, total fermenting times, and roughly the mixture of flour used. Salt? Anything added or done to speed up fermentation other than a wet dough? Have you done something similar and how did it turn out? Four hours in a ba...
I'm confusing myself and everyone around me! HELP! I am new in the baking world and I have stumbled upon something that is confusing the heck out of me...not to mention everyone else that I ask which makes me think I might be asking in the wrong way... Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough (which sounds delicious) has a liquid...	Yes You Can Sure; go for it.....
Starter improvement question & photo I bought the KA starter about 8 weeks ago, got it going well, and it produced good taste results. I always keep it in the fridge, after I leave it out for 4 hours or so after a feed. At about the four-week mark, with at least twice-weekly feeds, I started getting really excellent fl...	Common experience Hi, Carmen. Your experience of flavor complexity developing over time with a new starter is expectable. I can't tell you the exact metabolic pathways without hitting the books - Debra probably can - but lactobacilli produce various esters and aldehydes in addition to acetic and lactic acid. These add ...
Keeping sourdough bread from drying out. Lately I've been going on a baking spree and making sourdough bread. However, the problem arises that one can only eat so much in a day. So with that, what/how do you guys prevent the bread from drying out when transitioning from one day to the next?	I slice my bread first and I slice my bread first and place parchment or freezer paper between the slices, then I put the slices in a freezer bag and place in my freezer. When I want to eat bread, I take a slice, put in toaster. You can regulate how dark (or not). Works for me! Bread lasts for weeks this way.
Substituting malt syrup for diastatic malt There's a SD bread recipe I want to try that has diastatic malt amongst its ingredients. Just wondering, could I substitute malt extract ('malt syrup', I believe it's called in the States)? If so, does anyone have any idea of an appropriate conversion quantity calculation, ple...	Malt conversion http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/16426/substituting-malt-powder-syrup
Expert advice needed please! Over or underfermented? Bread today.jpg Bread42821_resized.jpg Hello everyone!I am so pleased to find this site, and am really enjoying reading your posts, and trying to be a better bread baker. It is addicting as you know, and I am just always trying improve my skills an...	You have a good rise on this You have a good rise on this loaf, so I don't think it's over-proofed. I suggest deflating the dough a bit more when pre-shaping to eliminate any large pockets in the dough. Otherwise, the shaping looks good also.What type of crumb were you aiming for?Cheers,Gavin.
completely unsour but very active starter Hi, I have been keeping a starter going and baking with it around once a week for around 3 months. I got it started with flour and water (can't remember exactly what flour or percentages of flour and water) but now it is a white whole wheat starter that I keep very stiff in t...	Young starter... Hi Varda! Your starter is still pretty young. My starter changed character periodically for at least a year. A key to the sourness of the bread is the bacteria species that colonize your starter. You are using a pretty high amount of starter in your preferment and your description implies to me that t...
using "un-peaked" starter if you use a starter in your dough that isn't at peak, does it just rise the bread slower, as in eventually it will reach the same volume as if you had used a starter at its peak, or is its perforance actually diminished?	Given some time, it will Given some time, it will pickup strength. Its always better to underproof a dough or a starter than to over proof.
warmer fermentation = more sour flavour...? I wonder if anyone else has had this experience. I like the sour flavour and want to maximize it. I've tried multiple long fermentations at lower temperatures and I have pretty universally been disappointed. The other day I ran out of bread altogether - eek! emergency! S...	Paul, I think there are others who can give you a more cogent answer, but I"ll take a shot at it. What I've found searching online is applicable to the yeast and bacteria specifically related to San Francisco sourdough. That symbiosis has been studied extensively, probably because the baking industry is willing to fund...
Contaminated Starter? I was wondering if it is possible for your sourdough started to some how get contaminated with commercial yeast? My started (made by Reinhart's method in BBA) made great bread for a while. Lately, though, I have noticed that the rise is too fast and although the starter still smells sour, the br...	Welcome, ANFlynn I guess if you leave your sourdough culture in an uncovered container and spoon commercial yeast next or it or above it, some yeast to could fall into the container - but the presence of such a tiny amount of commercial yeast would soon be eliminated through the regular refreshments of the culture. How...
Sourdough Nutrition Does anyone have any data on how much sourdough starter changes nutrition in bread? I'm curious to know how much the starter converts carbs to amino acids and other nutrients. I guess it would be very difficult to calculate because it would depend on length of fermentation, original quantity of star...	carbohydrates Since carbohydrates are by definition composed of only carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, and since fermentation does not involve a nuclear reaction to convert any of these elements to nitrogen, there is no conversion of carbohydrates to either amino acids or to proteins. There is some conversion to sugars, a...
starter: from fridge to mixing bowl Hi--I'm having a ridiculous amount of trouble figuring out one key step in sourdough. I made a starter from scratch (thanks, gaarp!), got it to the happy stage, and stuck it in the fridge a week ago. So that's set. And since I've been baking bread fairly regularly for the last year, ...	I started a similar thread a few days ago. at this link: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/17439/not-feeding-starter-prior-bread-baking I have continued to use my starter straight out of the fridge, but now microwave the water in the formula (of the bread recipe, not in the subsequent starter feeding) until it's just wa...
Sourdough Confusion I want to start a liquid white starter from Hamelman's "Bread," pages 358-359. He says to feed the starter twice a day. Are the amounts given for the feedings to be repeated twice a day, or are they to be split up between the two feedings? And is half the starter to be thrown away every time you f...	Discards Yes, a portion of the starter is to be thrown out at every feeding. You can keep the other discards and make other things like pancakes and such though.
My first sourdough with new starter... Failed. My sourdough starter was started on 4/1/10 based on SourdoughLady's post here (She was a great help with tips on the process) Thursday night, I started my first bread based on the no-knead recipe on breadtopia (I looked for a basic recipe here, but only found more advanced...	off the top I'm not familiar with the article you mention, but you should know, going in, that different sourdough cultures can vary wildly in the length of time they take to proof, from a couple hours, to over a day. Quite often you need to work with a sourdough several times to get the feel for it's needs and the tim...
Roman Holiday or of Lievito I've been a lurker for a while, and a baker of bread for many years, but I thought I'd solicit some advice for a project I have in mind. The only condition for giving advice is that you promise not to tell my wife anything about this ;) I'll be in Rome for about two weeks this summer and my...	I can help Depending on where you are staying, I can lend you scales if you need. And the big casserole I occasionally use as a Dutch oven. At least from time to time. My mainstay flour is GS's Manitoba. And of course there is lots of semonlina available at various grades of fineness. Jeremy p.s. Just looked up that ba...
firm starter HELP!! Hi all- so I am a sourdough newb, but I recently made Prof. Calvel's starter which looks like it'g going to make it :) But...I do have a couple questions that I would really appreciate help with. I consider myself a pretty good internet researcher, but I haven't found anything to help me out.. Can...	One can usually tell by the recipe if a firm starter or a more liquid one is used, just looking at the starter amounts is informative. A firm starter asks for small amounts 10g up to 50g for a household recipe and builds the starter before adding more ingredients (but not always.) If the recipe asks for more, say 250...
Rye bread help!!! My first attempt at a sourdough rye loaf.The proofing time by the instructions was off by about another 2 hrs. The recipe said anything between 1 and 3 hrs but a good reference for it being ready is if it has gone pillowy and lighter feeling. This extended the proof time to 4/5 hrs more, the 5th hr be...	Rye is different Stephen,Rye is a totally different grain from wheat and has to be handled accordingly. When you ask for advice like this it is very helpful if you include the formula for your bake. In this case the answer probably would be different if the rye content was 20% compared to 50 or even 100%. Speaking in g...
replacing instant dry yeast I want to replace .13 ounces of instant dry yeast with some active sourdough starter about 80% hydration in JH's 40% rye bread. Has anyone done this r have a pretty good ideas how much it would take? Herb	You could get an idea here Hi Herb, I just posted here on an 80% Rye from JH. I used only sour and no yeast. It might be a guide for you. This is the link, please feel free to comment whilst you're there. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/17539/slight-variations-two-more-formulae-hamelman039s-quotbreadquot
Starter has become weak and unresponsive. After pulling out some terrible, barely-risen, tight-crumbed loaves out of my oven the past couple of weeks I had to do some troubleshooting and eventually managed to figure out that my starter is misbehaving. I am not really sure why. The past few months I've kept it at 125% h...	1:5:4 is a big dilution In my opinion you weren't overfeeding it, but you were seriously diluting the yeasts. With that rate you should wait a lot of time to restore the yeasts density. You can still keep the hydratation at 125% and feed your starter without diluting it too much (1:1.25:1 such as 40:50:40) but does it ...
Very Old Starter I've been so busy and neglected my sour dough starter. It's been in my refridge, unfed for many months. I honestly can't remember the last time its been used. It smells sour, not rancid (is there a difference?). The liquer is golden, not black. Should I give it a go? How can I tell if its still g...	Gold good. Black not. Dump the hooch, then get it on a feeding schedule and see how it reacts. You should get a good idea after a couple of days. I think there's a difference between sour and rancid smells. Sour smells okay. Rancid makes me want to gag.
Newbie: Rise & Fall of Sourdough, LOL Well...note to self...don't turn the lower oven on to bake somthing while the sourdough in banneton's is in final rise in the upper oven! It apparently was too warm for the yeast and created a dry surface on the top of the dough both of which caused deflation. I figured , what the ...	Rise n' paw of sourdough... I just left my dough-and-bowl in it's final proof on my kitchen table with my sleeping cat; came in to check TFL news and on return to the kitchen found cat sleeping in a new orientation and a deep "paw punch" into the covering cloth and dough! Hmmmmm! Covering cloth took a bit of doing to p...
Pour off the hooch. As a new member, I want to off my 2 cents worth on hooch and get some opinions. I suggest you always pour off the hooch to prevent making the sourdough bitter. Here is my line of thought. Yeast produces alcohol and in sourdough, it is the clear or off color liquid we all know as "hooch". Part of ...	Welcome to TFL I think one can avoid the hooch in the first place by following a regular feeding schedule. I haven't seen hooch in three years - first and only time I saw it was when I first started a sourdough culture (liquid). I poured it off then simply because it was waste material. I now maintain a very firm cult...
Sourdough Substitutions Hi everyone! I am new here and I have to say I love your website. I just started getting into cooking and baking. Because I am addicted to carbs, I naturally was drawn to baking and this website interested me in the yeast part of it. As you can see, I am Very new to making bread so I have alot o...	It's Feeding TIme How often you feed your starter depends on how much flavor you want from it, time timing of your feeding relative to the time you use it, the temperature you maintain it at, etc. My starter lives in the regrigerator and gets fed 1:2:2 once a week. If I'm going to us it in bread I feed it the day (so...
More San Joaquin Sourdough After the prior thread on this formula, and dmsnyder's photos and steaming advice, I pulled these loaves out of the oven a few hours ago. I still have work to do on my shaping and slashing, which is coming along slowly. You can also see the effects of my oven being hotter in the back (bottom ...	Lovely loaves, neoncoyote! I'm so glad you are enjoying the San Joaquin Soudough! Your scoring looks great to me. David
Not feeding starter prior to bread baking In thinking about creating a rye starter, I was perusing the various threads and stumbled upon a huge mistake I've apparently been making with my AP starter: I do not feed my starter prior to baking with it. I've been taking it out of the fridge, using what I need, feeding it t...	Confession Hi, neoncoyote. I've done the same many times - with starter that hadn't been fed in a week. If I do this, I use warm (80-85ºF) water to mix the dough (assuming the starter was mixed right out of the fridge). You would have a more active starter if it had been just refreshed before mixing the dough. The doug...

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