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you don't realize that they're passing this data on to these other companies, which is...
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Yeah, and I, you know, I taught to sift and I have to say I've made
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Processing this data on these companies. Yeah
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So SIFT gets the data, but they don't pass it onto anyone. The only thing they pass is a score back to the... So like...
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they're looking over that Airbnb data and just passing a score back to Airbnb.
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the data back to Airbnb and it lets Airbnb know if they should look at a transaction more closely.
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And the only way that I guess the data kind of
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So if they see a, you know, a phone being used on Yelp to place a bunch of fraudulent orders, if that phone shows up on Airbnb.
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They do have some data already about that phone or that IP address or you know
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whatever it else. They're using it to judge a person.
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Right, so that could be concerning, you know, for a variety of reasons.
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just had no idea that anybody beyond Airbnb
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surprising to me. And there's there's kind of like sensitive data in there where you talk about your, you know,
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your family needs and.
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That was kind of the most sensitive thing in there and then each of the transactions
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scored. So it had like a percent.
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penetrating of whether it was likely to be fraud or not. Abuse or not abuse.
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account takeover or not account takeover. So this was
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This was the only data I got back where there was actual scores in the data.
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Yeah, I was wondering about that because to me that's...
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you know i mean it some of the you know what they have is eye-opening but uh...
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intrigued by what my actual scores would be.
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I mean, was there anything in there that surprised you? Was there anything that...
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that indicated that something you had done legitimately was deemed questionable?
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All my scores were positive, you know, even when I
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I was, the most embarrassing one was last Thanksgiving.
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complaints about the property even on Thanksgiving.
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company has been giving reports to people.
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for about a decade. But mostly the other ones had only set up their processes in the last couple months.
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And so I found that like some companies were
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kind of gave me the run around and made it really difficult and said they...
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didn't have data on me or they did have data but they were data processors and I had to go directly to the companies that held my data to get my data but other companies were really forth.
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coinbase to try to determine whether...
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can't whether something's fraudulent or whether it's abuse.
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get something like this when I started out with this experiment. Yeah.
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and like so what was in I mean 400 pages
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The first thing I saw is that I had my yell borders going.
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2016 you ordered Saug Panier and Garlic None.
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which was weird. I just didn't realize that home was keeping that data. It had.
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every time I had opened Coinbase, you know, what device.
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for all of these transactions that had information about the...
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device I used, what the screen size was, what the operating system was.
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And it had all of my, the thing that really shocked me was it had all of my Airbnb messages that I had sent to host going back years.
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scoring companies listed in this report that score, you know, employees for applicants for jobs.
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potential renters for landlords. There's kind of all kinds of different ways of...
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scoring or labeling people as, you know, basically valuable.
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I'm not. Yeah. Wow, that being said.
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It gives me this idea that the whole, like, dialing a 1-800 number and seeing if you can actually get to a human and how important they think your call is.
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You could almost see a world in which, you know, if you could find out the good, the people with the good scores.
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That's interesting. So what did you find out when you, because you approached a bunch of these companies under these?
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data protection laws, whatever you want to call them, and try to get your data.
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So one thing I learned is just that these privacy laws in Europe and California are having trickle-down effects for other consumers.
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my data even though they're not legally required to do so.
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Yeah, it doesn't go into effect until January 1st.
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And I was really catching these companies at a point where they had just set up these processes.
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And most of the companies had only recently started doing this with the exception of...
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which is a company that determines whether you're allowed to make returns or not.
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This is the company. This might be the company responsible for making that call.
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about this industry and what these companies do.
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And it clicked in my mind that we have these new kind of data transparency requirements as part of new privacy laws that you-
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DPR in Europe and the California Consumer Protection
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Act in California and I said I wonder if any of these companies are
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you know now sharing what they know about consumers.
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with consumers and so I just went through and tried to request my data.
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And so, just as background for people who, like me, didn't even realize these companies exist, what exactly do you...
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So it's very easy to call them consumer scoring companies. That's kind of like a...
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generic term that reporters and journalists have used to describe them, but each company kind of does something
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of trying to identify fraudulent transactions.
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So they do safety, trust, and risk.
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scoring. There are other companies that will score.
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how valuable a customer is, how much money a consumer would be.
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potentially spend with your company. So basically saying...
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This is a really good customer. You should treat them really well or you don't really need to prioritize.
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this person. So the example that a lot of journalists have given is that this score can determine when you call a 1-800 line.
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apologies about that, but just think of it as a chance to catch up on old episodes.
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We have a bunch. I forget how many. Over 200. And so.
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Hopefully I have at least one more in December and then we'll get back onto a regular schedule in January. But today...
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Today on the podcast we have a return guest, Kashmir.
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And now we have her on to talk about a recent article that she wrote for the New York Times about your secret consumer score.
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For all of the talk that people like to have these days about the likes of Google and Facebook selling your data
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Or what I think of as sort of nefarious stuff happening in firms that no one has ever heard of, various data brokers and the like.
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What HILD discovered is that a bunch of these...
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available to you in response, mainly to California's new privacy law and a little bit in response.
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of the GDPR in the EU. And so she was able to get some of the details on what these companies actually have on you. And it was...
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Most people probably don't even know about...
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and they're out there collecting all this data on you and sharing it with other companies.
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consumer group, consumer education.
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Foundation that was prepared for the Federal Trade Commission where they are asking the commission to kind of investigate this industry of, you know,
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scoring companies and they'd gone through and named a bunch of the companies.
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the defendant. And in that case, a San Diego district attorney actually filed a brief arguing that the Store Communications Act doesn't apply to Facebook at all. And so this...
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That is one side versus the other pro government, pro defense. This is really everybody on board trying to make our criminal justice system more fair.
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Right. So those were sort of one question. I mean, are there, you know, it's one thing to say that this is
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that it's sort of just ignorance on the part of lawmakers, not in a bad way, just general ignorance. They're not aware of this issue in making these laws come out.
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Are there actually, and as you pointed out, like law enforcement just wants to make sure that they have access, they're not necessarily, you know, fighting to deny access to defense.
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That's a special case, but we can see. I mean, one of the reasons why I think it's great to have this conversation, period, no matter what law makers decide to do, is that if we get them to say,
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New York statute, civil rights law 50A, if you want to go look it up. But now there's a democratic campaign to repeal that law.
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Yeah, it's sort of fascinating. And I think it sort of crystallized in my mind when you pointed out that law enforcement just wants access for themselves.
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is a question of whether or not they would actively try and prevent.
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Yeah, yeah, no, that would be interesting. No, this, as I said, is a very interesting different way of looking at this issue, but I think it's...
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It is an important issue and it's just one that I hadn't considered, but it is yet another example of kind of all of these privacy laws create all different kinds of tradeoffs.