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... | Hello and welcome to the podcast. |
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... | First up, I want to say that things have been a little bit busier than usual, meaning that... |
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... | We skipped a few weeks of podcasts in November and actually are likely to do so again in December. |
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... | but hopefully we'll get back on a more regular schedule in the new year. |
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... | I haven't quite figured out why that was, but then... |
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... | Yeah, well you never quite know. |
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... | why, I guess, and that's the hard part is even with these consumption figures |
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... | Right, where they have like a steak in your car. |
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... | I'm a little more supportive of the numbers than you maybe. |
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... | Alright, so Rachel, what's your initial thoughts? You know the twice? |
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... | they yeah I mean they're not there I don't want |
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... | before. Yeah, yeah, and I think, I mean, just as a sort of tangential side note, but I think it's important, you know, it seems like we are |
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... | There is this movement now where people are recognizing that we need significant criminal justice reform in all sorts of areas, right? Well beyond this one. |
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... | And so, you know, I think this is, it feels like a good time to be bringing up these issues. Obviously, you know, there are all these privacy laws that are, you know, being proposed. |
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... | and some of them are actually becoming law, but it's happening at the same time that there is renewed interest in criminal justice reform. Right. And the new privacy law is what's trouble. |
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... | about them is that they're poised to make the SCA like asymmetry so much worse, because those laws are going to cover so many more types of data. |
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... | Not only do we want to be reforming our criminal justice system, but also we're handing in storing so much more data That's going to be relevant to criminal investigation |
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... | with third-party service providers. So Fitbit data, you know, cell phone location records, all of the DNA. You know, we used to live in a world where the government |
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0... | interesting stuff. As I said, it's just something I hadn't really considered. It's really interesting to think about. Is there anything? |
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... | that I'm missing, is there anything else to think about regarding these things? I think we've covered a whole bunch and we've gone through all my questions. |
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... | Yeah, no we covered a lot and I just want to also say that I'm so appreciative of you for reporting on it because it does feel like something that we can fix. |
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... | Yeah, that's a good point. It's companies, it's private companies, the private sector. And actually there's a case right now pending before the California State Supreme Court. Touchstone is the name of... |
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... | unjust for criminal defendants. Right. So, and the example you gave before is because the person in particular was pleading the fifth to stop. |
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... | You know, say they are homeless or they're itinerant, you can't locate them, or say they are dangerous. You know, there was a case also in San Francisco. |
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... | recently where an individual defendant was caught on surveillance camera shooting at an SUV. And he wanted to argue that he was acting in some |
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... | self-defense because the individual who was driving the SUV had been threatening and harassing him on Instagram for the past six months making him fear for his life. And in fact, |
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... | that individual had tried to kill him earlier and the attempted murder had been investigated by the police. So he wanted to be able to get |
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... | content related to that individual's Instagram account that he didn't have access to anymore, but he wanted to get it from Facebook. He didn't want to have to go subpoena the individual |
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... | do is not immunize the technology companies from the administrative burden of complying with legal process that the rest of us all have to comply with if it's served on us. |
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... | Right. Yeah, I mean I'm still thinking about this is you know, I recently wrote a story not in the criminal context, but in the civil |
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... | that limit that I said before about fishing expeditions. So if the judge thinks you're just off fishing, they're gonna deny you. But also they require defense counsel pretrial to show that they're gonna deny you. |
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... | So already our subpoenas in the criminal cases are much more narrower, and so they are less vulnerable to that type of abuse. The other big difference, of course, is the... |
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... | They applied a medical record, they applied a psych record, they applied a location information, and we're used to accommodating and accounting for those types of risks with all the safeguards we talked about. |
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... | not well reasoned or thought through. Yeah, is it that law enforcement minister? I know that whenever politicians are pushing for these kinds of. |
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-... | privacy bills that usually law enforcement does raise concerns about what it would mean for their investigatory powers. But do you think that they're sort of... |
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... | heavily lobbying whenever any of these bills are coming out. That's certainly my understanding. I'm not in the room, so I'm not a primary source here. But. |
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... | is they're just the reality of it and then also state lawmakers there's a lot of copy and paste that goes on we're depending on other bills and so if we could get this fixed |
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... | in some of the leading bills, I think that we would see it proliferate as a fix in the other bills. But look, even if we can't fix the... |
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... | of defense investigations, they could be giving an adverse inference instruction to the jury. So this is an instruction that a judge can give to the jury in a trial that says... |
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... | Hey, defensive investigators tried to get some information and they weren't able to. And so you should presume that if they had, it would have been favorable to their case. |
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... | that people just need to recognize that this is an issue? I think so. I think it's just one of knowledge. It's kind of like that rare $5 bill. |
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... | that's just on the side of the sidewalk, you know, if we can pick it up and we can really fix this pretty easily. |
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... | Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, as I said, it was just one of those things that I had never thought about. And so it was sort of interesting to think through these issues. |
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... | Um, if I oh sorry go ahead well I was gonna go back to that what you were saying about the legitimate interest in privacy and that it is so important But I just want to |
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... | still lets defense counsel subpoena account holders for the information. And so in the vast majority of circumstances, if defense counsel is gonna be sending harass. |
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... | very strange. Yeah, it's interesting though, of course, there's always going to be some sort of judgment call then, right? You know, if you were to say that... |
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... | different but I guess I guess that gets to almost everything here right you have a judgment call over what should should be you know absolutely protected and what should not be yeah |
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... | There's exceptions and few people lobby for a criminal defense investigator to have the same exceptions. I've talked to some of the folks who are thinking about these laws and they'll |
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... | bills had these asymmetries built in, but there were other ones that had neutral language. So you can pass laws that just have exceptions for good faith response to valid constitutions. |
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-... | need some of the same investigative tools. Right and just for listeners in case you somehow have missed this, CCPA is the new California Privacy Law that just went into effect at the beginning. |
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... | symmetry. Yeah, a lot of them have this asymmetry. A lot of them do. But what's what's what's fascinating is that some of them don't. So how can Jeffries bill from last from 2019 |
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... | Arrested, driving the getaway car moments after the shooting and threatened with prosecution. So she had a Fifth Amendment privilege not to produce the records. Remember your Fifth Amendment right to- |
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... | tried to appeal it. They got the California appellate court to review it and the appellate court said they weren't going to stop the judge's order and then they |
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... | proposed ones and the past ones are well intentioned and we need to have privacy as we're sending more and more data about our lives to intermediary |
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... | part of ECPA, the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, I think is what it stands for. Those were passed in 1986 and are in many ways woefully. |
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... | They don't justify, you know, at least on a first glance, that doesn't justify the asymmetrical treatment. But in addition, we have safeguards against abusive subpoenas that are |
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... | already built into the subpoena power. So defense can't get a subpoena if the judge thinks they're just going on a fishing expedition. And the judge can quash the |
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... | the judge can review it and make sure that the information really is evidence of innocence that the defendant needs to access. You can disclose information just to defense counts. |
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... | guards to try to mitigate them. In addition to that, I mean, just think about the kinds of information that we're talking about here. So with social media records, the store communicates |
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... | basic description for our listeners of what this problem is and where you've seen it. Sure. So there's a troubling pattern. It appears in past privacy laws. |
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... | is to protect data from the government in some cases. And in a lot of cases, it's to protect the data from the way companies might use it. So. |
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... | So can you give an example of where this is actually playing out, where there's this sort of imbalance? Sure. Yeah. So one of the most prominent examples and the reason... |
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... | just take the contents of your Facebook posts or your email and publish them to the newspaper there are limitations on when they can disclose that and the law has expressed exp... |
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... | a avenue for police to get the information, whereas they aren't thinking about defense investigators who may be investigating the same people, the same facts and circumstances. |
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... | So it's it's it's funny in a way that by trying to regulate law enforcement They actually end up making it relatively easier for law enforcement, right and in |
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... | in which law enforcement's not obliged to investigate evidence of innocence. So they only have to disclose that information if they happen to come across it. They're under no duty. |
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... | to actively investigate a defendant's theory of the case. In our justice system, that duty belongs to defense counsel alone. And it is a duty of f- |
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... | defense counsel so if they don't investigate you have an ineffective assistance claim this is why we give defense counsel subpoena power right |
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... | that this gang relationship motivated the defendants to participate in the shooting. Neither of them, by the way, is charged with actually pulling the trigger. And so the two defendants tried to... |
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