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4,801 | daddit | If we take a step back from looking at things as masculine and feminine, many things are just different levels of mental engagement. Is someone mechanically inclined? Nuturing? Empathetic? Or enjoy problem solving? Or is a real hands on learning? Gears and do dads are a similar level of shapes and holes. And dolls and nuturing is merely human empathy and social recognition. A play kitchen set is the same as a play tool set because they deal with tools, objects, and creation of items. |
4,802 | daddit | It's because, even if we are right and gender differences are all caused socially, some people will be drawn to some very gender-stereotyped activities. Yes, your 2 year old might be very interested in trucks and machines and what not, but it doesn't mean he's doing it because he's a boy. It means that you have rewarded him for being interested in those things. It feels good for him. It feels good to be rewarded. So it feels good to play with toy trucks. Most parents don't realize how much of an impact they have on their children's lives. If you reward your kid for being interested in different kinds of things, you will see that he will enjoy them a lot more. What I mean from all that is just this: support your child's interests. If your son picks up a Barbie doll, play with him. If your daughter plays with a transformer doll or G.I Joes, play with her. Reward your children. You will see they will become adults with way more diversified interests, which is always good. |
4,803 | daddit | [deleted] |
4,804 | daddit | > People definitely do not like the idea that sexes have any non socially caused gender differences. Most people are perfectly fine with that. What they aren't fine with is that those difference somehow perfectly match the gender differences that have been pushed for society this last few decades or centuries. Especially when we see the differences between gender varied widely between different culture and different time. |
4,805 | daddit | I may never look at my daughter the same way again. |
4,806 | daddit | Ahh so much of this resonates! When we first had our daughter, I had a lot of liberal/feminist angst about not encouraging her to be too "girly", mainly because I wanted her to be able to get the most out of life, but I think a key conversation I had with my gf's parents really sunk in: that it doesn't really matter what toys or clothes you buy them, as long as you make sure they grow up with self confidence and self respect, all of the rest will probably work out. (Probably, nothing is ever certain). Now whenever my daughter (3) dresses in her Frozen dress and tells me proudly "look papa, I'm a beautiful princess!", I just tell her she is indeed, and sing "Let it go" right along with her. (Until she tells me to stop papa, she is singing!) I love kids, and I love having kids. It teaches you so much, including sometimes to just "let go". I think I am a humbler, less self-righteous person because of being a parent. :) |
4,807 | daddit | Yeah was the same for my son...wife and I went into it thinking we're not really going to push anything on him in that sense, and we get him toys of all different sorts. And yet at 2.5yrs old now I walk down the street with him hearing "Honda! Acura! BMW! Another Honda! Saab!" This shit is just hardwired sometimes. |
4,808 | daddit | And likewise if a kid demonstrates behaviors that contradict stereotypes that's fine too. My mom has a phd in nuclear physics and nanotechnology or something like that. She's an engineer. While I was growing up she worked in construction. She was a carpenter who happens to write poetry and do beautiful watercolor paintings. She had a purse full of tools and wore sun dresses. Everyone just needs to let people be their best damn selves and embrace them for it. |
4,809 | daddit | People are not angry that a boy likes stereotypical boy things. People are angry that the post title says that behaving according to gender stereotypes is "natural" and thus implies that behaving different from those stereotypes is "unnatural". |
4,810 | daddit | There is much more variation within a gender than between the genders. Of course their parents aren't sitting there telling them they must behave in whatever gendered way (for most parents anyways). But media sure is. I bet almost 100% of kids in a kindergarten class watch media (TV, Netflix, movies). Media is huge on showing kids how different genders are "expected" to behave. |
4,811 | daddit | I completely agree with your assessment. It's almost as if being the product of thousands of years of evolution is, somehow, inconvenient or offensive to some people. I don't get it. Many of the people who are most offended by the idea, as you said, have little or no experience with children. Many of those same people learn what they "know" about human behavior in hermetically sealed college ~~echo chambers~~ classrooms. |
4,812 | daddit | > Kids have their own personalities and their sex really doesn't affect that until they get older and hormones start hitting them. I mean, that's the problem here - your opinion is meaningless, because there's reams of data and research that suggest you're wrong. I mean, don't get me wrong, I think it's fucked up to enforce gender roles on your kids, but if you think that there's no fundamental sex differences in behavior between girls and boys *before* they get their blast of hormones, you should buy a book. |
4,813 | daddit | > Kids have their own personalities and their sex really doesn't affect that until they get older and hormones start hitting them. Until then they're basically gender neutral. That's not really true at all. If that were true, you wouldn't see these statistical differences at such an early age. You'd have to assume some grand patriarchal conspiracy to explain the results. That just complicates the models. It's much simpler to conclude that children, even small children, have personalities that are, in some ways, effected by their biology. |
4,814 | daddit | It makes me so happy to remember that there are normal people here on reddit |
4,815 | daddit | He's pretty good in Homeland too. |
4,816 | daddit | My parents did the same but one day I decided to remove all the labels from all the cans so we had mystery canned food sides at dinner for quite a long time. |
4,817 | daddit | [Yeah, me either](http://imgur.com/gallery/Vjonp). |
4,818 | daddit | I commend you for your curtains! I took home ec twice in High school but never once took autoshop. I think you can pursue your your interests, without worry of gender fencing different subjects, while still being a man. |
4,819 | daddit | Nothing subtle about it. |
4,820 | daddit | The people who are at all concerned with your use of language might need to have there connection to reality checked. |
4,821 | daddit | Because reddit circlejerks over "SJW"s any time someone mentions "gender roles". I think you're a good parent. |
4,822 | daddit | HUH? edit: lol.. oh.. NM.. i see now hahaha.. jokes on you, it's two sock puppets of the same person :P |
4,823 | daddit | it is learned...whether or not you were intentionally teaching it |
4,824 | daddit | Because kids that do that are usually the ones that are bullied. |
4,825 | daddit | The internet is this weird place sometimes, where strangers think it's okay to casually ask you to explain the reasons behind your nightmares. |
4,826 | daddit | I assumed he meant to say "without" because it didn't make as much sense otherwise, in context. I don't know. Maybe his daughter doesn't actually love him like I first thought. Maybe she loathes him and everything he touches. |
4,827 | daddit | stereotypes exist for a reason. chill the fuck out. |
4,828 | daddit | I just knew the studies so I did a quick google search and posted the first links I found. I know it's not scientifically sound but I'm not writing a paper. |
4,829 | daddit | Don't forget that he has a mother too. And she gets "mommyyyyyy!" when she gets home from work, while I usually get "I want it to be grandma." Anyway, we pretty much never watch TV, and when we do, he chooses. 99% of the stuff I do with him starts with the question "what do you want to do?" Other than that, I play guitar and sing, maybe sit at the computer, usually I'm cooking and cleaning though. So, sorry, but I don't buy it. |
4,830 | daddit | you're so full of shit its incredible. |
4,831 | daddit | > no matter what Mike Spence says Yea, that'll show Spence. You got him good. |
4,832 | daddit | [edit add: the deleted parent comment was dismissing a 2009 study of rhesus monkeys authored by Hassett/Siebert/Kim Wallen ... http://imgur.com/FOOziwG] That 2009 study was a replication of a previous 2002 study of vervet monkeys showing gender preferences: quote: In 2002, Gerianne M. Alexander of Texas A&M University and Melissa Hines of City University in London stunned the scientific world by showing that vervet monkeys showed the same sex-typical toy preferences as humans. In an incredibly ingenious study, published in Evolution and Human Behavior, Alexander and Hines gave two stereotypically masculine toys (a ball and a police car), two stereotypically feminine toys (a soft doll and a cooking pot), and two neutral toys (a picture book and a stuffed dog) to 44 male and 44 female vervet monkeys. They then assessed the monkeys’ preference for each toy by measuring how much time they spent with each. Their data demonstrated that male vervet monkeys showed significantly greater interest in the masculine toys, and the female vervet monkeys showed significantly greater interest in the feminine toys. The two sexes did not differ in their preference for the neutral toys. -- from https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200804/why-do-boys-and-girls-prefer-different-toys |
4,833 | daddit | I don't know why you are downvoted for asking for the source. That study sounds very interesting. I would love a source to gain more information. [Found an article describing the study](https://www.google.com/amp/s/animalwise.org/2012/01/26/born-this-way-gender-based-toy-preferences-in-primates/amp/?client=ms-android-verizon) |
4,834 | daddit | Then explain [***THIS***](https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2336/2191234315_ccd2df81e9.jpg) |
4,835 | daddit | Yes, I know. So am I actually. My wife changes the diapers. |
4,836 | daddit | > A person's gender is a social characteristic, not a biological one. Oh boy, here we go again! |
4,837 | daddit | I know what you mean. I've had to be more conscious of that as well, I guess. I have two older girls and I feel like it's my role as a father to toughen them up. Like, I have to convince them that their scraped knees are awesome rather than terrifying. Or expose them to skills that they may not naturally be drawn to. |
4,838 | daddit | Don't worry. You won't have an influence on any of these things no matter what you do. |
4,839 | daddit | Girls are just naturally subservient |
4,840 | daddit | You should return it. |
4,841 | daddit | Congratulations. |
4,842 | daddit | Holy fuck our universities have become so saturated with this horseshit! |
4,843 | daddit | Demand your money back. |
4,844 | daddit | It's amazing how reactionary reddit is when it comes to gender issues |
4,845 | daddit | That doesn't even make sense, that's like pitching the ball back to the pitcher instead of hitting it. If this game is "lively debate" then no that's not at all how this game works. You just called me a liar and you somehow claim that either this isn't my son, or it's not my father in law, or not my dishwasher, or it's not broken, or my son isn't poking it with a screwdriver. I honestly have no idea what you are claiming is not true. |
4,846 | daddit | Man...what is it with HBO and doors? |
4,847 | daddit | r/westworld is leaking again |
4,848 | daddit | Hate to break it to you... You're a host. |
4,849 | daddit | Me 200m thanks. |
4,850 | daddit | Teddy Roosevelt |
4,851 | daddit | \*tears welling in eyes\* *nice* |
4,852 | daddit | That's a bit harsh, isn't it? Most of us are aware that if we disappeared, nobody would give a damn. |
4,853 | daddit | I think you put a comma where you meant to put a semicolon. |
4,854 | daddit | >*Let them be themselves.* it seems so simple, doesn't it? |
4,855 | daddit | I agree with you 100%. I want my little gitl to be independent and smart and sporty. However, if she is less like that I wont force her to do anything she doesnt want |
4,856 | daddit | I'm a female in my mid-30s. I studied computer programming throughout high school and college. I'm athletic, was varsity swimming all 4 years of high school. I used to workout with some of the football team while they were at the gym. I'm a gadget nerd and gamer too. I'm great with my hands (except for cars), have spent many a year in the garage with my dad. My brother is none of these things (except the swimming part, I followed after him). He hates computers, asks me any small question regarding tech, and just tried to avoid building things with our dad. To say the least, his interests and my own barely overlap. It just so happens that my favorite color is pink, I love being girly and wearing all the pretty shoes & purses. Give me anything pink on any given day, and you have yourself a really happy *chica*. So, rest assured that we can grow up being both, they are not mutually exclusive in the least. |
4,857 | daddit | This is the attitude that more people need to have in this world. Sadly, the "feminists" are the most vocal and offensive people I know about this; the people who need labels. Everyone else just seems to be trying to get through the day and pay the bills while keeping a roof over their head. |
4,858 | daddit | "It's one thing to want equality." Problem is the people you're talking about don't want equality. |
4,859 | daddit | The thing is that everytime you say "Haha, such a girl" etc. to a little princess it's like pointing at that one car-obsessed girl and saying "You don't belong. You're not a real girl." And it stings every time because you do start wondering whether you are somehow wrong. It stings as an elementary student who's way too much into math, it stings as a PhD student in computer science. You don't have to force it on them (please don't) but don't other them either and understand that it'll get pointed out when you do it. |
4,860 | daddit | When my daughter started noticing "boy things" and "girl things" (as in interests, not body parts), I told her "Those are trends, not rules. Don't enforce them and don't assume them, but noticing them is ok." |
4,861 | daddit | I dunno. I've got 4 kids of my own, and for almost 10 years I coached a group of kids in hockey, and moved up with them as they got older. They're my kids too, in a way. In 2003 I started with 34 of them, now there's 16 of them still together as seniors on the high school hockey team. All along the way, with my kids and with my hockey kids, I've always wondered what they would grow up to be. I can only do so much to control who they become. Ultimately, they will be their own people. There IS an aspect of just standing there with your arms crossed, cause as much as I try, I just never REALLY know what's going to happen next. |
4,862 | daddit | I'm curious if you have any children in your life. When an individual's little personality begins to develop it is a really interesting thing. When they latch on to certain interests and those interests become hobbies or passions and especially when they begin to excel at something on their own because of a passion for it that seemingly wells up out of the aether, it's just really cool to watch. Every time a new baby comes into my world I do think the same thing, "now just who are you going to turn out to be, with what humour and skills and flaws and quirks?" The parent above is just asking that question with an angle on gender norms and as compared to the experience they've already had with their son. I know you were just painting your arms-crossed picture as a joke, that the statement had put a comical image in your head, but there really is nothing strange about that sentence in the least. |
4,863 | daddit | ...have I been doing it wrong this whole time? |
4,864 | daddit | Are you 18 yet? When you moving out? |
4,865 | daddit | This. My niece was all about trucks and spaceships and climbing and digging for worms when she was a toddler. Then she discovered the pink aisle. After which she'd play with her trucks and dig for worms while wearing a pink dress and a tiara. /shrug |
4,866 | daddit | Such a cool arrangement. Yeah my wife goes as far as buying our dude any cute onesie no matter the supposed gender. |
4,867 | daddit | Whoa, your son must live a lovable life! I'd love to hear more about the whole co-parenting thing! |
4,868 | daddit | I'm sorry I cant upvote you more than once. You made a little human who has to navigate the world and decide what he thinks is interesting. He made that decision on his own and isn't judged, so he can follow whatever path he likes! That's brilliant. And as a side note, this totally validates my enjoyment at driving my missus' MX-5 runabout. /s |
4,869 | daddit | Good points. Yeah like everything it seems like it is ona continuum and there is no real one size fits all. At best a one size fits lots. |
4,870 | daddit | > I'm not arguing one way or the other, lol okay. |
4,871 | daddit | For sure. I was surprised at how "boyish" my little dude is. I am a nurse and liberal and learned about social constructs and gender roles in my cultural anthro class. I would go as far as to say I consider myself a feminist. All that said, it seems to me ao far that some of the boyish things people try to pretend we have pushed on boys have manifested in my little dude with 0 tv and 0 pushing from me or my wife. |
4,872 | daddit | Just get her the Haynes manual for an 80-10 for christmas and her future is set! |
4,873 | daddit | Same with my son. His obsession is trains. He hears a train whistle in the distance and he acts like a kid who hears the ice cream truck coming. So now we go to train museums and buy train toys. I could see someone from the outside thinking we are pushing it on him but it's definitely the other way around. It certainly wasn't my idea to learn the names and distinguishing characteristics of all 8 billion Thomas and Friends characters. |
4,874 | daddit | Actually, the post title says After two daughters, it amazes me the way a boy naturally behaves This only implies a father's amazement that his son leans towards stereotypical masculine activities naturally... as in without outside influence. People are trying too hard to take offense where none was intended. |
4,875 | daddit | Natural in this sense just means that's how the average boy behaves and it's accurate. This is no different than the push to call heterosexual people "cis" instead of normal. You can change the word you use but it still means the same thing. |
4,876 | daddit | Evolution favors diversity, not sameness. |
4,877 | daddit | Yes, boy and girls are different. But I don't think evolution made girls like pink and boys like blue, boys like trucks and girls like dolls. I think advertising, movies, tv shows, and the other children around them play a huge part in what kids are more drawn to. |
4,878 | daddit | Of course there are differences between the sexes. But they are small and apply to groups, not individuals. The differences within a sex are far larger. |
4,879 | daddit | [deleted] |
4,880 | daddit | [deleted] |
4,881 | daddit | Oh my lord. The feet. Hilarious. |
4,882 | daddit | WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN MY SWAMP |
4,883 | daddit | I didn't know skin could get that green. |
4,884 | daddit | Peanut butter and food coloring? |
4,885 | daddit | ah... how many children do you have? Odd... your not a dad and have never posted here before today... yet you've shown up randomly like all these other people for the first time today... |
4,886 | daddit | Honest question and devils advocate; Is it not okay? Here's my thinking on this; You casually brought it up, which typically means that if it wasn't something that you were okay with talking about, then you wouldn't have mentioned it or brought it up in the first place. That's typically how things like this work, isn't it? 'Person A' presents information. 'Person B' inquires about information. 'Person A' considers this strange? Regardless of that, though. Is it still not okay to ask people questions regardless of whether they've been prompted or not? Because it's also fine to not answer those questions? 'Person A' presents information. 'Person B' inquires about information. 'Person A' declines further details on aforementioned information. 'Person B' moves on. That's usually how communication between people works? |
4,887 | daddit | In real life that'd cost a few hundreds bucks. |
4,888 | daddit | When you create a post about gender differences and call out your own concerns about being "manly", then discuss your "nightmares" about your son wearing a pink tutu, people might want to kindly point out that it's not really a big deal by asking you *why* you think you have nightmares about it. |
4,889 | daddit | Having nightmares of your son in your daughters' tutus is an emotionally weak thing to do. Don't be such a girly man. |
4,890 | daddit | You read me right! I'm not very good at typing good muchly! |
4,891 | daddit | You're telling people to "chill the fuck out," but the comments you replied to really don't seem upset about anything. It's you that seems upset by saying that. You appear to be overreacting. |
4,892 | daddit | >stereotypes exist for a reason And that reason is intellectual laziness. |
4,893 | daddit | You can buy whatever you wish, but I'm not selling anything. And I'm not planning to spend the day arguing a point that is completely unarguable and unprovable. Not sure why so many on this page are ready to do that. Believe whatever you wish. But read more on the topic if you're actually interested in learning about it (as opposed to just being interested in being correct). |
4,894 | daddit | Well aren't you sweet? Thanks for adding such a cogent point, there, professor. Really adds to the fucking discussion. Numbnut. |
4,895 | daddit | Really? I stated an objective fact. In 99 percent of cases, a person's sex matches their gender. |
4,896 | daddit | Seriously. People like him go through 9 years of education and come out dumber on the other side. It's incredible. |
4,897 | daddit | [deleted] |
4,898 | daddit | I believe they refer to it as "repurposed equine waste" |
4,899 | daddit | No, that's not what I'm claiming. I'm not going to explain it to you. You're not a child. |
4,900 | daddit | What door? |
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