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5,813 |
That operation was done by a small Jewish fraction BEFORE the state even
existed and, as far as I remember, was disaproved by most of the Jews.
Saying that "He was killed by the Israelis" is plain wrong because there wasn't
"Israel" at the time.
And as far as the Jews liked the idea of having part of the land you can see
their reaction to the UN resolution from 29 November, and the Arab's reaction
too (no, it wasn't that the Arabs danced in the streets with doznes of Jewish
states invading them but quite the other way around).
Bye, | 5 |
4,206 | [Motor-Voter stuff]
Well, there does have to be a line. And to be honest, extending
voter registration to DMVs is hardly analogous to having only one
place for registration in Alaska and opening a new one in Atlanta. More is
not always better once you've passed a certain point.
I thought the Motor Voter bill passed.
In any case, my experiance with Tennessee's voter registration
system (which you can register with by mail, by the way) is that nobody
who is interested in voting is being denied access to registration.
All it requires is just the tiniest bit of interest on the registrant's
part and thinking about the election once in the eleven months prior to
it. (Once you register it's good unless you miss for years worth of
elections of move.)
It's easy to register now. I simply don't see the value in going
out and trying to get people registered who don't have enough gumption to
even write and have the proper forms sent to them. How can we expect
responsible decisions out of these people?
| 5 |
385 | THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
______________________________________________________________
For Immediate Release April 20, 1993
REMARKS BY THE PRESIDENT
IN PHOTO OPPORTUNITY WITH VACLAV HAVEL
The Oval Office
5:00 P.M. EDT
Q Mr. President, President Havel is here for the
Holocaust Museum opening, and you toured the museum last night. All
this focus on the Holocaust, how does that weigh on your decision-
making process as far as Bosnia is concerned?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think the Holocaust is the most
extreme example the world has ever known of ethnic cleansing. And I
think that even in its more limited manifestations, it's an idea that
should be opposed. You couldn't help thinking about that. That's
not to compare the two examples. They're not identical; everyone
knows that. But I think that the United States should always seek an
opportunity to stand up against -- at least to speak out against
inhumanity.
Q Sir, how close are you to a decision on more
sanctions on Bosnia?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, of course, we've got the U.N.
vote. Ambassador Albright was instrumental in the U.N. vote to
strengthen the sanctions and they are quite tough. And we now are
putting our heads at the business of implementing them and looking at
what other options we ought to consider. And I don't have anything
else to say, except to tell you that I spent quite a bit of time on
it and will continue to over the next several days.
Q Following your meeting today, sir, are you any
closer to some sort of U.S. military presence there?
THE PRESIDENT: I have not made any decisions.
* * *
Q President Clinton, why have you decided to meet
with Mr. Havel?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I'm just honored that he would
come and see me. I'm glad he's here in the United States for the
dedication of the Holocaust Museum. He is a figure widely admired in
our country and around the world, and a very important person in
Europe, and a very important person to the United States. So I'm
hoping that we'll have a chance to talk about the new Czech republic
and what kinds of things we can do together to support the causes we
believe in. | 5 |
3,448 |
Are you for real?
People dumb enough to give their money and possessions to a guy who says he's
jesus deserve all they get
Anyway, he killed a few feds
He's not the goddam hero here
He's dead an' i'm happy!!!!!
| 5 |
944 | #
# Q: When an Israeli pilot is bombing school children in Lebanon gets
# shot down, and crashes head-first, what's the last thing that
# goes into his mind (head)?
#
# A: His butt hole.
Now this HAS to count as one of the most original and constructive
contributions yet on tpm. All in all, well worth the $$$$ it took
to send it to thousands of computers all over the world. | 5 |
2,118 |
Having watched most of the televised trial, I can answer that
when such statements were made by the defense atty, the prosecutor did
object, and the judge tended to sustain the ones that were obviously
falling under the "self-incrimination" type of objection. There was
quite a bit of meta-discussion during the trial over the use of graphic
language, with most folks asking the judge if she wanted to hear the
exact language. Practically every time the defense tried to get the
plaintiffs to "self-incriminate" by asking them such questions, there
were objections and sustains.
At one point the defense managed to get in a quip about
"solicitation for a felony" and the judge herself said "sustained"
before the prosecutor could get the objection stated. | 5 |
4,320 | Frank Benson:
Another spelling flame?
Aren't you the guy who threatens people on talk.politics.guns? 2nd
amendment yea, 1st amendment nay. | 5 |
6,026 | # #Actually, I bet you more gay/bi men are as not as promiscuous as gay men,
# #because more of them could have the "option" of living a straight life, and
# #with social pressures, probably would at least try.
#
# Geez, where have you been, Ryan? I proposed this theory *months*
# ago. Let's take it one step further, even. If, as the surveys show,
# up to 33% of all men have *had* a homosexual encounter, then there must
Cite a survey, other than the obviously bogus Kinsey studies.
# be an even *larger* percentage of people who have had homosexual erotic
# fantasies. But if less than 10% of the population is gay, what can we
# say about these people who don't identify as gay but have demonstrated
# gay potential. Obviously, a large chunk of these people *chose* (or,
# more accurately, were forced to choose by force of religion and social
# sanction) to put those feelings aside, to be heterosexual.
#
# Obviously, Cramer and Kaldis fall into this category.
I can't speak for Kaldis; but "force of religion and social sanction"
played no part in my sexual preferences. Neither had much influence on
me as a teenager.
# elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) | 5 |
92 | : In article <1r6p8oINN8hi@clem.handheld.com>, jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De
: >
: > I have not made up my mind about Waco, but there sure seems to be a group of
: > devoted government following fanatics willing to believe whatever that
: > government wants to tell them, without any shred of doubt, nor thought of thier
: > own. They sure get shrill whenever their belief structure is being shaken.
: >
: > Kinda reminds you of the BDs, doesn't it?
: >
: > Jim
: Go to hell. I'm no "government [-] following fanatic." Your sweeping
: generalizations evince your own ignorance. What were they supposed to do?
: Just let him be?
Yes. Given the history of the BD's and the fact that they were just
peacefully minding their own business, I think this would have been
the correct course of action in the very beginning. Everything that
followed was a direct result of the major media fuck-up that the BATF
perpetrated just over 51 days ago.
:Fuck him. Fuck the ATF, too. They should've done it right
: the first time.
: joe.kusmierczak@mail.trincoll.edu
Yep, no doubt about it. They should have just bombed those kooks
right from the git-go. Yeah, sure! So much for any resemblence
to an America that abides by the Constitution. So much for feeling
safe in your home. So much for any of the rights enumerated in the
Bill of Rights being upheld. Why bother? They just get in the way
of an effective government. That is, a government of the elite, by
the elite, for the elite.
Joe, attitudes like yours frighten me. You have very few facts about
what actually happened, and what information you do have came from a
single source, the FBI/BATF. Yet you are more than happy to pronounce
the BD's guilty-as-charged based on this one-sided testimony. Scary!
| 5 |
3,749 |
I would change one of the many parts that define my cultural identity.
If I loose a leg, it might change my personality, but I do not
stop being a human being.
Even more, when someone gets a baboon heart, that person is still
human.
Not really. That is what differenciates agnostics from atheists.
As an atheist, I do not believe there is a god, nor do I believe that
there ever was one.
So, those commandments have no meaning to me. Also, there are a lot
of ideas that have no meaning to me: The idea of a chosen people,
the idea of a given right to the land of Israel, the idea of keeping
kosher, the idea of opposing intermarriage, the idea of having a
Torah that was inspired by god, etc.
By being an atheist, I cannot support the idea of the Jewish Nation
as defined by a religious principle or based on a religious identity.
For me, religion is just another piece in what constitutes the cultural
identity of the Jewish people. I believe that as a people with a
cultural identity they constitute a Nation and have the same right as
any other people in the world to have their own State. The same right
as the Armenians have, as the Palestinians have, as the French have,
and as anybody else have.
I cannot say that by accepting a different god someone has lost all
cultural identification.
| 5 |
7,474 |
Dirty Cosar pig has been doing just that for a long, long time.
Source: "Ahmet Cosar said to have been part of 1992 Terror Attack at
MacDonalds in Munich," The Fuckersville Reporter, February 7, 1993, p. 1.
"Le Merde, the influential Anatolia daily, based on unidentified sources,
claimed last week that Ahmet Cosar, the founder and leader of one
faction of the Big Mac Funny Army for the Liberation of Flies from the
Spider Webs (BMFALFSW), was among the Argic led terrorists who staged an
attack on the toilets at MacDonalds fast food restaurant in Munich...
Le Merde added that up to 1992, Cosar operated out of tygra.michigan.com,
but escaped from the country when Bullshit bikers entered the city. It was
about this time that a statement issued by BMFALFSW claimed that Mr. Cosar
was dead of wounds suffered during a mailbombing by bdb@becker.gts.org,
although it is generally believed that the mysterious leader is alive and
well and presently is residing alternately in Fuckersville, Bullshitia, and
Zuma, Stupidia. The paper also noted that the communist government of
Sexual Maniac Hasan B. Mutlu and his F.U.C.K.A.L.L party accepted the
Zumabot's underground leader with "open arms" and still providing him
with assistance in exchange for pornographic material.
Le Merde further adds that BMFALFSW derives only a small portion of its
expenditures from wealthy drug lords who support the cause, with the rest
coming either from other sources or from proceeds of an involvement in
child-porn trafficking."
Serdar Argic | 5 |
2,692 |
* The news statement was that there was $200,000 worth of "firearms
and ammunition (no mention of "assault weapons")" on the premises,
not that Koresh had purchased them (what would his crime be if he
had?). This averages to about $2000 per person, not an astronomical
number.
* We don't know that there is a thigh-deep pile of a million rounds...
we know that the FBI SAYS there is a pile of a million rounds. | 5 |
4,151 | -> > I think he's talking about Kinsey who came up with the 10%
-> >statistic used heavily by gay groups to push their political agenda.
-> >Kinsey's work has often been accused of lacking a strong scientific
-> >backbone.
->
-> I really must defend my man Alfred. Not that this poster was really
-> to be taken seriously, since the deletiae are a phobe's rants. But
-> still, some who aren't such phobes mistakenly criticize my man.
You really need to be able to support yourself without
insults. The article you're calling rants actually had absolutely
none of my opinions and was only a series of factual statements. | 5 |
1,625 |
]Furthermore, in response to an earlier message, the 1992 U.S. est. output of
]sulfur dioxide (20 mill. tons) was equivalent to the entire output by the recent
]eruption of Mt. Pinautubo(Sp.). Currently world carbon dioxide levels set at approx.
]360 ppm, in the past 120,000 years it has never gone above 280 (this info
]was found using ice core samples from the joint French/Russian/U.S. Vostok
]project). Furthermore, the background emmisions of chlorine compounds into
]the atmoshpere is about 0.6 ppb annually, it now sits at 3.5. This OVERWHELMING
]data/info is found in the World Resources doc. published by Oxford University.
Good evidence.
]The ozone hole in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres keeps getting bigger
]and stickin' around longer whilst skeptics ponder how wrong or corrupt all this
]data from government and international scientific institutions is. It is a pity, that,
]if the skeptics are wrong and we base our complacency on their Limbaugh
]psycho babble, then we will find ourselves strapped by limited options with
]which to rectify the primal engineering of our industrial age.
What ozone hole in the northern hemisphere?
What exactly will happen if we get an ozone hole in the upper atmosphere?
According to the senior chicken-little at NASA, as much more UV radiation
as if one moved 100 miles south. Certainly not the calamity that is being
imagined by eco-lunatics.
CO2 is going up. So what. There's no evidence that the increase is
due to burning fossil fuels, no evidence that increasing CO2 will increase
temperatures, and no evidience that raising temperatures will do anything
but good--ie make millions of acres of tundra into productive life-bearing
land. | 5 |
112 |
It has nothing to do with how long they have been voting, as much as HOW
they have been voting. Pick up a list of the Labor parties proposals
for MK prior to the election and pay attention to the order. Correlate this
with the number of Arab party members eligible to vote in party elections.
Further correlate this with the voting results from Arab areas.
Lo and behold, you will discover that Israeli Arab Labor party members
did not band together unanimously or en large for a select group of
Arab candidates. This problem is further exacerbated by the rifts
between Israeli Arabs. Some claim membership to right wing parties
while others vote for parties that do not pass the minimum cutoff.
I worked within the labor party during the late 70's elections (not this
last one) as a volunteer and was privy to the voting results that
were returned from the local delegates elected. At the time, the system
was structured differently but it did not cease to amaze me that there
was no massive effort to lobby for Arab reps. by their own delegates.
Quite simply, if all eligible Arab voters became members of the Labor
party and voted, they would be able to command more than %15 of
the delegates. This is a power base that can not be ignored!
Especially when they are not ranked high in the party (once again
due to lack of political power). I have seen how the labor party
works from the inside and my experience has been that, as in most
political situations, the MKs act out of their own self-interest.
And to answer your question, I "broke" with labor because I felt
that they were heeding too much to the right-wing and ultra-orthodox
coalition members.
Fair enough. My take on the matter, and I will admit to the possibility
that this might be seen differently is that this was a dummy argument.
If he was sitting on the committee, then someone else obviously would not
be. In drumming up support for his seat, MK [?] would not be averse to
using this argument, or it could be used on his behalf.
As to the proof presented in this article, I would find it very
interesting to know who proposed the compromise along with a followup
describing how the matter stands/was resolved.
Let me just take this opportunity to say that I deplore such actions
and groundless justifications.
For the record, Roni Milo, is a brash MK (self described) from the Likud
(note NOT LABOR). Quite frankly, I don't think anything he would say could
surprise me. Annoy and aggravate, yes, surprise - no.
Yes I do and thank you for providing it. I would be most interested
in knowing how things turned out. Anyone......?
| 5 |
1,554 |
Try coming up with your own definition of any or all "self-hating" peoples.
To me, any who reject their culture to the point where they *only* see the
absolute negatives of that culture (generally, or regarding a particular
event) and accept *only* those views purely opposing aspects of that culture
(thus, selective belief in and use of historical facts and a complete ignoring
of "context" results) "hate" their culture. That certainly describes Elias,
since he has no intention of recognizing that, alongside the Palestinian
experience and perspective, there exists also that of Israelis.
And, this is precisely why Israeli society has been tremendously harmed
by the actions it (its government) has *felt it had to take* in response
to an "other" perceived as a threat. Just as with you, there has long
been a strident and emotional debate about the pain Israelis feel when
forced to "balance" desires for survival and moral beliefs. The trauma
of having to make that choice is made worse by the fact that neither
can be conveniently brushed aside (as a result of a reasoned political
debate) for the sake of the other, only reshaped.
| 5 |
1,880 | After seeing William Sessions on television, explaining the great lengths
to which the FBI went to determine the suicidal tendancies of David Koresh,
I got the very unpleasent feeling that Koresh had manipulated the FBI's
perceptions much the way he manipulated his own followers.
Maybe I was manipulated by the news story. | 5 |
7,061 |
I don't remember the article that you removed so I can't comment on it.
What I can comment on though is your response.
Do you really believe that what you wrote is sufficient to refute the article?
Do have any facts in addition to your opinion? | 5 |
3,810 | > Lines: 13
> NNTP-Posting-Host: yfn.ysu.edu
>
>
>
> >Our little Goebbels, to those who forgot, is talking about an alleged
> >"infection" of "fine Egyptian men", by a "Mossad agent caught spying
> >with her father in Egypt". As noted before, the women is a Muslim
> >Israeli, she was not a spy, and she didn't infect anybody.
>
> The Jewish version of the story!!
>
> "A Muslim Israeli." I thought it is a Jewish State.
> Hasn't it yet been defined up to this point?
>
This is a post from a hospital? The inmates from foam the cushion ward
have net access! | 5 |
1,438 |
Poor 'Poly'. I see you're preparing the groundwork for yet another
retreat from your 'Arromdian-ASALA/SDPA/ARF' claims.
Just love it. If that does ever happen, look out the window and see
if there is a non-fascist/Nazi x-Soviet Armenian Government in the East.
By the way, your ignorance on the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim
people is hardly characteristic of most 'Arromdians'.
Source: K. S. Papazian, "Patriotism Perverted," Baikar Press, Boston, 1934.
pp. 17-18.
"It seems that terrorism against their own co-nationals has been a prominent
part of the revolutionary activities of the Dashnag leaders of the Caucasus.
Organized to fight the Turks, these chieftains have been more successful
in their fight against their Armenian opponents in Turkey, and the Caucasus,
very often defenseless and innocent."
p. 38.
"The fact remains, however, that the leaders of the Turkish Armenian section
of the Dashnagtzoutune did not carry out their promise of loyalty to the
Turkish cause when the Turks entered the war...and a call was sent for
Armenian volunteers to fight the Turks on the Caucasian front."
p. 38.
"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of
such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer
regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
1914-15-16."
Got a map? Got a minute?
Source #1: McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman
Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press,
New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.
Source #2: Hovannisian, Richard G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence,
1918. University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles),
1967, p. 13.
Now where is your non-existent list of scholars and publicly available
scholarly sources; here is mine. What an 'Arromdian'...
SOME OF THE REFERENCES FROM EMINENT AUTHORS IN THE FIELD OF MIDDLE-EASTERN
HISTORY AND EYEWITNESSES OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF 2.5 MILLION MUSLIMS
1. "The Armenian Revolutionary Movement" by Louise Nalbandian,
University of California Press, Berkeley, Los Angeles, 1975
2. "Diplomacy of Imperialism 1890-1902" by William I. Lenger, Professor
of History, Harward University, Boston, Alfred A. Knopt, New York, 1951
3. "Turkey in Europe" by Sir Charles Elliot,
Edward & Arnold, London, 1900
4. "The Chatnam House Version and Other Middle-Eastern Studies" by
Elie Kedouri, Praeger Publishers, New York, Washington, 1972
5. "The Rising Crescent" by Ernest Jackh,
Farrar & Reinhart, Inc., New York & Toronto, 1944
6. "Spiritual and Political Evolutions in Islam" by Felix Valyi,
Mogan, Paul, Trench & Truebner & Co., London, 1925
7. "The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia" by E. Alexander Powell,
The Century Co., New York, London, 1924
8. "Struggle for Transcaucasia" by Feruz Kazemzadeh,
Yale University Press, New Haven, Conn., 1951
9. "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey" (2 volumes) by
Stanford J. Shaw, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, New York,
Melbourne, 1977
10."The Western Question in Greece and Turkey" by Arnold J. Toynbee,
Constable & Co., Ltd., London, Bombay & Sydney, 1922
11."The Caliph's Last Heritage" by Sir Mark Sykes,
Macmillan & Co., London, 1915
12."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill,
Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 1928
13."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925
14."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952
15."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17
(Spring 1964)
16."Armenia on the Road to Independence" by Richard G. Hovanessian,
University of California Press, Berkeley, California, 1967
17."The Rebirth of Turkey" by Clair Price,
Thomas Seltzer, New York, 1923
18."Caucasian Battlefields" by W. B. Allen & Paul Muratoff,
Cambridge, 1953
19."Partition of Turkey" by Harry N. Howard,
H. Fertig, New York, 1966
20."The King-Crane Commission" by Harry N. Howard,
Beirut, 1963
21."United States Policy and Partition of Turkey" by Laurence Evans,
John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, 1965
22."British Documents Related to Turkish War of Independence" by Gothard
Jaeschke
1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri:
Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S.,
Ankara, 1982. (Ingilizce Birinci Baski: 1980, "The Armenian
Question in Turkey")
2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.
3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.
4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970.
T.C. Basbakanlik Osmanli Arsivi, Babiali, Istanbul:
a) Yildiz Esas Evraki
b) Yildiz Perakende
c) Irade Defterleri
d) Cemaat-i Gayr-i Muslime Defterleri
e) Meclisi Vukela Mazbatalari
f) Dahiliye Nezareti, Kalem-i Mahsus Dosyalari
g) Dahiliye Nezareti, Sifre Defterleri
h) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Siyasi Kartonlar
i) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Muhimme Kartonlari
T.C. Disisleri Bakanligi, Hazine-i Evrak, Defterdarlik
a) Harb-i Umumi
b) Muteferrik Kartonlar
British Archives:
a) Parliamentary Papers (Hansard): Commons/Lords
b) Foreign Office: Confidential Print: Various Collections
c) Foreign Office: 424/239-253: Turkey: Correspondence - Annual Reports
d) Foreign Office: 608
e) Foreign Office: 371, Political Intelligence: General Correspondence
f) Foreign Office: 800/240, Ryan Papers
g) Foreign Office: 800/151, Curzon Papers
h) Foreign Office: 839: The Eastern Conference: Lausanne. 53 files
India Office Records and Library, Blackfriars Road, London.
a) L/Political and Security/10/851-855 (five boxes), "Turkey: Treaty of
Peace: 1918-1923"
b) L/P & S/10/1031, "Near East: Turkey and Greece: Lausanne Conference,
1921-1923"
c) L/P & S/11/154
d) L/P & S/11/1031
French Archives
Archives du ministere des Affaires entrangeres, Quai d'Orsay, Paris.
a) Documents Diplomatiques: Affaires Armeniens: 1895-1914 Collections
b) Guerre: 1914-1918: Turquie: Legion d'Orient.
c) Levant, 1918-1929: Armenie.
Official Publications, Published Documents, Diplomatic Correspondence,
Agreements, Minutes and Others
A. Turkey (The Ottoman Empire and The Republic of Turkey)
Akarli, E. (ed.); "Belgelerle Tanzimat," (istanbul, 1978).
(Gn. Kur., ATASE); "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXI (81),
(Dec. 1982).
----; "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXII (83),
(Dec. 1983).
Hocaoglu, M. (ed.); "Ittihad-i Anasir-i Osmaniye Heyeti Nizamnamesi,"
(Istanbul, 1912).
Meray, S. L. (trans./ed.) "Lozan Baris Konferansi: Tutanaklar-Belgeler,"
(Ankara, 1978), 2 vols.
Meray, S. L./O. Olcay (ed.); "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Cokus Belgeleri;
Mondros Birakismasi, Sevr Andlasmasi, Ilgili Belgeler," (Ankara, 1977).
(Osmanli Devleti, Dahiliye Nezareti); "Aspirations et Agissements
Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la proclamation
de la Constitution Ottomane," (Istanbul, 1917).
----; "Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal ve Hareket-i Ihtilaliyesi: Ilan-i
Mesrutiyetten Evvel ve Sonra," (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Idare-i Umumiye ve Vilayet Kanunu," (Istanbul, 1913).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. I (Istanbul, 1914).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. II (Istanbul, 1915).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. III (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. IV (Istanbul, 1917).
(Osmanli Devleti, Hariciye Nezareti); "Imtiyazat-i Ecnebiyye'nin
Lagvindan Dolayi Memurine Teblig Olunacak Talimatname," (Istanbul, 1915).
(Osmanli Devleti, Harbiye Nezareti); "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; (IV. Ordu) "Aliye Divan-i Harbi Orfisinde Tedkik Olunan Mesele-yi
Siyasiye Hakkinda Izahat," (Istanbul, 1916).
Turkozu, H. K. (ed.); "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi,"
(Ankara, 1982).
----; "Turkiye Buyuk Millet Meclisi Gizli Celse Zabitlari," (Ankara, 1985),
4 vols.
Russia
Adamof, E. E. (ed.); "Sovyet Devlet Arsivi Belgeleriyle Anadolu'nun
Taksimi Plani," (tran. H. Rahmi, ed. H. Mutlucag), (Istanbul, 1972).
Altinay, A. R.; "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Kafkas Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Turkiye'de Katolik Propagandasi," Turk tarihi Encumeni Mecmuasi,
V. XIV/82-5 (Sept. 1924).
Asaf Muammer; "Harb ve Mesulleri," (Istanbul, 1918).
Akboy, C.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi, V. I: Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun
Siyasi ve Askeri Hazirliklari ve Harbe Girisi," (Gn. Kur., Ankara, 1970).
Akgun, S.; "General Harbord'un Anadolu Gezisi ve (Ermeni Meselesi'ne Dair)
Raporu: Kurtulus Savasi Baslangicinda," (Istanbul, 1981).
Akin, I.; "Turk Devrim Tarihi," (Istanbul, 1983).
Aksin, S.; "Jon Turkler ve Ittihad ve Terakki," (Istanbul, 1976).
Basar, Z. (ed.);"Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara, 1974).
----; "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler - Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978).
Belen, F.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi," (Ankara, 1964).
Deliorman, A.; "Turklere Karsi Ermeni Komitecileri," (Istanbul, 1980).
Ege, N. N. (ed.); "Prens Sabahaddin: Hayati ve Ilmi Mudafaalari,"
(Istanbul, 1977).
Ercikan, A.; "Ermenilerin Bizans ve Osmanli Imparatorluklarindaki Rolleri,"
(Ankara, 1949).
Gurun, K.; 'Ermeni Sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir?', "Turk Tarihinde
Ermeniler Sempozyumu," (Izmir, 1983).
Hocaoglu, M.; "Arsiv Vesikalariyla Tarihte Ermeni Mezalimi ve Ermeniler,"
(Istanbul, 1976).
Karal, E. S.; "Osmanli Tarihi," V. V (1983, 4th ed.); V. VI (1976, 2nd ed.);
V. VII (1977, 2nd ed.); V. VIII (1983, 2nd ed.) Ankara.
Kurat, Y. T.; "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Paylasilmasi," (Ankara, 1976).
Orel, S./S. Yuca; "Ermenilerce Talat Pasa'ya Atfedilen Telgraflarin
Icyuzu," (Ankara, 1983). [Also in English translation.]
Ahmad, F.; "The Young Turks: The Committee of Union and Progress in
Turkish Politics," (Oxford, 1969).
During the First World War and the ensuing years - 1914-1920,
the Armenian Dictatorship through a premeditated and systematic
genocide, tried to complete its centuries-old policy of
annihilation against the Turks and Kurds by savagely murdering
2.5 million Muslims and deporting the rest from their 1,000 year
homeland.
The attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance
of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark
Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford
Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian,
Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General
Bolkovitinof, General Prjevalski, General Odiselidze, Meguerditche,
Kazimir, Motayef, Twerdokhlebof, General Hamelin, Rawlinson, Avetis
Aharonian, Dr. Stephan Eshnanie, Varandian, General Bronsart, Arfa,
Dr. Hamlin, Boghos Nubar, Sarkis Atamian, Katchaznouni, Rachel
Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many
others.
J. C. Hurewitz, Professor of Government Emeritus, Former Director of
the Middle East Institute (1971-1984), Columbia University.
Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern History,
Princeton University.
Halil Inalcik, University Professor of Ottoman History & Member of
the American Academy of Arts & Sciences, University of Chicago.
Peter Golden, Professor of History, Rutgers University, Newark.
Stanford Shaw, Professor of History, University of California at
Los Angeles.
Thomas Naff, Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research
Institute, University of Pennsylvania.
Ronald Jennings, Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies,
University of Illinois.
Howard Reed, Professor of History, University of Connecticut.
Dankwart Rustow, Distinguished University Professor of Political
Science, City University Graduate School, New York.
John Woods, Associate Professor of Middle Eastern History,
University of Chicago.
John Masson Smith, Jr., Professor of History, University of
California at Berkeley.
Alan Fisher, Professor of History, Michigan State University.
Avigdor Levy, Professor of History, Brandeis University.
Andreas G. E. Bodrogligetti, Professor of History, University of California
at Los Angeles.
Kathleen Burrill, Associate Professor of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.
Roderic Davison, Professor of History, George Washington University.
Walter Denny, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts.
Caesar Farah, Professor of History, University of Minnesota.
Tom Goodrich, Professor of History, Indiana University of Pennsylvania.
Tibor Halasi-Kun, Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies, Columbia University.
Justin McCarthy, Professor of History, University of Louisville.
Jon Mandaville, Professor of History, Portland State University (Oregon).
Robert Olson, Professor of History, University of Kentucky.
Madeline Zilfi, Professor of History, University of Maryland.
James Stewart-Robinson, Professor of Turkish Studies, University of Michigan.
.......so the list goes on and on and on.....
Serdar Argic | 5 |
827 |
And the best evidence you can find is second hand hearsay from
an unnamed source? You may indeed be confusing *some* Muslims
with Nazi Armenians. Altogether 30,000 Nazi Armenians served in
various units in the German Wehrmacht, according to Ara J. Berkian.
14,000 in predominantly Armenian army units, 6,000 in German army
units, 8,000 in various working units and 2,000 in the Waffen-SS.[1]
A number of these Nazi Armenians were volunteers from France,
Greece, Rumania and Bulgaria who had chosen to commit
themselves to the German war effort. Derounian says that
"Dashnag Armenians from France bore the mark 'Legion
Armenienne.'"[2]
That Nazi Armenians like Dro 'the Butcher' and Nezhdeh sided
with the Germans probably had an impact on the decision of
Armenians who overwhelmingly opted for armed service.
[1] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, 'Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900
Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen,' (Heinz Holzberg
Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 118/119.
[2] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), in 'The Armenian
Displaced Persons,' ibid., p. 19.
In fall 1942, the Armenian infantry battalions 808 and 809 were formed,
to be followed by battalions 810, 812 and 813 in spring 1943. In the
second half of 1943 infantry battalions 814, 815 and 816 were created.
These battalions together with other indigenous Caucasian units were
attached to the infantry division 162. Also attached to ID 162 were
the field battalions II/9, I/125 and I/198 which were formed between
May 1942 and May 1943. Altogether twelve Armenian battalions served the
Nazi army, if battalion II/73, which was not employed at any time, is to be
included.[1] Most battalions were commanded by Nazi Armenian officers.
Armenians wore German uniforms with an armband in the Dashnag colours
red-blue-orange and the inscription 'Armenien.'
[1] Joachim Hoffmann, 'Dies Ostlegionen 1941-1943, Turkotataren,
Kaukasier und Wolgafinned im deutschen Heer,' (Verlag Rombach
Freiburg 1976), p. 172.
While having collaborated with the Nazis against Stalin during the
Second World War, Nazi Armenians changed their policy after Hitler's
defeat. They now backed Stalin's claims on Eastern Turkish provinces,
hoping that these would be annexed to Soviet Armenia and their Muslim
population would be exterminated. Stalin played on Armenian national
sentiments to enlist the support of Armenians in the USSR and America
for his imperial ambitions.[1] Stalin's ultimatum to the Turkish
government led Truman to formulate his famous Doctrine.
[1] Walter Kolarz, 'Religion in the Soviet Union,' (London, Macmillan &
Co Ltd; New York, St Martin's Press 1961), pp. 160-164.
Serdar Argic | 5 |
4,928 | of
thier
Eloquently, if somewhat shrilly, put.
Well, why not?
You have a way with words. And you sure get shrill on cue.
Jim
--
jmd@handheld.com | 5 |
4,873 |
*********************************************************************
That's cool; I wish everyone had the smae kind of names; the
world would certainly be a better place!!
| 5 |
1,556 |
What does this bill do?
McD | 5 |
3,037 | From article <strnlghtC5tr6D.n3n@netcom.com>, by strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight):
"Well Regulated", at the time of its writing and in the context of the Second Amendment,
means "Properly trained and equipped."
It modern language it would read:
A properly trained and equipped militia, being necessary to the security of
a free state <note the word "free", it doesn't say "police"), the right of
the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. | 5 |
5,322 | I have to say I think this is the first time there has
been something posted that opposed me without making personal
insults. Congradulations tim. I think the other people answered
you on most of the factual parts(esp. about the internal
conflicts policy).
Israel very often gets away with more
than most other nations (Due to U.S. vetos). While I am not
familiar with every instance I know that the reason Saudi
Arabia was not condemned for killig the pilgrims was that the
pilgrims were iranian. Yes, the UN is biased but mostly in
favor of the US and its allies (Including Israel, Saudi Arabia
and Pakistan) and against "Outlaw" countries like iran and more
recently Iraq. Far be it from me to support the repressive
governments there but I think they get more slack than Israel
for things they do "wrong". Again the reason some condemnations
don't occur lies in the race or country of the victims. The
gassed Iraqi kurds got associated with Iran in the war and
since Iran was perceived as worse than Iraq no condemnation
resulted. The palestinians killed by arab countries involved
another case of who cares. It seems that until very recently no
one cared about how many palestinians died anywhere (including
in Israel and the occupied territories).
Again I appreciate the lack of personal insults.
| 5 |
1,079 |
I am seeking any press references to how much tax Perot pays in income taxes.
I've heard the figure of 7 percent, since he gets most of his
his income from federal and municipal bond interest. Anybody read a reliable
report somewhere? Thanks!
| 5 |
918 |
Yeah! That's it! :) You've really outdone yourself this time Nick...
Don't forget the "Davidian Muslims"... :)
Islam is not a race. It's a religion. You can be white, black,
Fijian or Alaskan. I guess you didn't absorb too much of the Malcolm
X interest circulating. You see, the whole point of Islam is that it
stresses equality amongst all peoples. Now, I do realize this is
difficult for you to comprehend given your staunch beliefs in Serbian
ethnic cleansing, but give it a try, it's really not that difficult.
That's right, it's a Disneyland war -- all a setup for the TV cameras.
There are also people who believe man never landed on the moon, that
the whole Apollo story was done in TV studios...
Terms of secession? You are, of course, joking, right Nick? Nobody
*chose* to fight. Bosnia and Croatia were *internationally*
recognized nations when the Serbs attacked and started on their
well-documented genocide. That makes them an outside aggressor. It's
a simple genocide, a classical example of ethnic cleansing. There is
no question of civil war... | 5 |
753 |
Imagine, you have been under seige for almost two months by an enemy which you
believe wants to kill you. Suddenly, they pump tear gas into your building and
punch holes in it with tanks. Then a fire breaks out. Do you run outside to
be slaughtered, or stay and face your fate.
Check Ethiopia vs. Italy in WWII for some answers to that question. | 5 |
5,261 | :
: When you force people to associate with others against their will,
: yes.
:
: People are *forced* into the USA armed forces?
They were in the recent past, maybe someone knows for certain if the
usa has decided if it wants a conscript army (as they sent into south
east asia) or a volenteer one?
-- | 5 |
7,234 | BIGOTRY"
Biden spoke well. Then there was John Major, the architect of the
betrayal of Bosnian Muslims to genocide.
He basically has given yet another green light to HVO Ustashe and
Mladic-Chetnik serial killers, rapists, and plunderers to continue their
genocide against Bosnian Muslims.
But Major met with Mr. Rushdie and said it was "unacceptable" that Iran
should have a death decree on him. While I disagree personally with
Fetwas against hack writers like Rushdie (it only helps them sell more
books), I find it interesting that Mr. Major finds the genocide of two
million Muslims in Bosnia acceptable, but a threat against one single
popular British writer "unacceptable." | 5 |
5,108 |
This is quite corect, but a bullet hitting a burned body with little energy
will show virtually no deformation, ie a hollow point probably would not
expand, an FMJ would be "pristene". Also the bullets will not be marked
with the lands ang grooves of a barrel, because they didn't come out of
one. A good pathologist should be able to notice this right away.
Let us hope that the ME's that handle these bodies are more competent
then the ones who did JFK's body. | 5 |
1,843 | I keep hearing people say this. It assumes that we, at some point,
had a choice at the ballot box: "Vote yes or no I want the FBI
and BATF to become latter-day Gestapos". That just isn't so.
The process is far more complex. We do not have direct control over
the bureaucracy. When we evaluate our representatives we don't often
know what their contribution is to the wayward direction of the
federal law enforcement bureacracy. To assert that we got what
we wanted is absurd.
Oh, good I feel much better now. ;-) | 5 |
5,645 | The Denver Post (supposed voice of the supposed Rocky Mountain Empire)
ran the following in the 'Firearms, Supplies' classified heading on
Friday, 23 April 1993. If you have an opinion about their new found
wisdom, I am told that the person to speak with is one Mr. Walters,
(303)820-1267.
Notice
The Denver Post will no longer
knowingly accept any advertise-
ment to buy or sell assault weap-
ons. The Denver Post finds that
the use of assault weapons poses
a threat to the health, safety, and
security of its readers.
Let 'em know what you think...
--Dan
--
Spooksmoke: Revolution, Assasination, Thorium, Cobalt-60, Clintin, CIA, NSA, SHC
DoD #202 / loki@acca.nmsu.edu / liberty or death / taylordf@ucsu.colorado.edu
Send me something even YOU can't read...
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.2 | 5 |
266 | I'm going to be mixing together here stuff from two of Ted Frank's
articles, <1993Apr15.143623.25813@midway.uchicago.edu> (which was a
response to me) and <1993Apr16.011455.20518@midway.uchicago.edu> (a
response to Tim Smith)...
Eminent domain is a state-mandated transaction in which one party is
required to sell a piece of property which it owns to another party,
regardless of whether the first party wishes to sell at all, at a price
which is set by the state. I fail to see how this doctrine can be found
in tort, bankruptcy or contract cases in general. Well, okay, sort of
in bankruptcy...
* * * * *
Bang. Here's one of the places where we widely diverge. You believe
that the courts, in deciding a civil dispute between two parties, should
consider as a factor -- perhaps as an overriding factor -- issues which
I believe the court should ignore as being irrelevant to the dispute.
_Boomer v. Atlantic Cement Co._ was an action brought by one party,
Boomer, whose property rights were being violated on an ongoing basis by
another party, the Atlantic Cement Company. The facts supported
Boomer's contention that Atlantic Cement was wrongfully damaging his
property, and Boomer asked the court to order Atlantic Cement to stop
doing so. End of story. There was no reason for the court to consider
such issues as what a capitalistic society would want Atlantic Cement to
do or whether the cost of compliance was disproportionate to the damage
faced by the plaintiffs. Those issues had nothing to do with the case
before the court.
I'd be up in arms? Why do you assume that? Quite the contrary, I'd
probably support the action, since it would be based on the same general
doctrine as the decision that I believe would have been correct in
_Boomer_: the idea that people's property rights should not be violated
for reasons of economic efficiency. In _Boomer_ it was Boomer's
property rights which I believe the court should have protected; in the
hypothetical EPA ruling you've presented, it's the American people's
collective property rights in a healthy physical environment. What
good is cost-benefit ratio of 15+:1 if you wind up with cement dust in
your air?
* * * * *
Yes. So what? The courts are supposed to protect the specific rights
of individuals, not the general interests of some nebulous society. If
society can have its cement plant without violating anyone's rights,
fine. Otherwise society will somehow have to limp along with one less
cement plant. (See, Ted, I really _am_ a libertarian after all! :-)
"One wants the legal regime to approximate the end result to begin with,
in order to minimize the transactions costs."??? Which "one" are you
speaking of? _I_ want the legal regime to protect people's rights.
Besides, Coase's Theorem only has real application in the never-never
land of perfectly rational actors. In the real world (1) some people
are going to be stubborn, ornery, spiteful or otherwise "irrational"
from a economic point of view and (2) the purpose of the courts is to
protect their right to be so. I don't care if you can show me logically
that your cattle are only doing $100 of damage to my property per head,
so I should rationally sell you grazing rights to my land for, say, $150
per head -- I still retain the right to tell you that I just plain don't
want any damned cattle on my property, not at any price.
* * * * *
Last question first: For the same reason as in contract law -- because
to do so would come dangerously close to treading on the Thirteenth
Amendment.
As to your "Then, by your argument, no tort plaintiff is ever made
whole, because the award of damages in involuntary" claim, you're at
least partially right. Faced with situations in which the wrong has
already been done and the damage to the victim has already taken place
and cannot be reversed or undone, courts will try to set an equitable
price tag on the loss suffered by the victim and require the wrongdoer
to pay this price (rather than an inflated price which the victim might
prefer). In these cases, the "sale" has already taken place and is
irreversible, and the court simply tries to ensure that a fair price is
paid, under the doctrines that (a) only in certain circumstances should
even a civil wrongdoer be forced to pay punitive or excessive prices and
(b) even a genuine victim should not profit in an unjustified or
inequitable manner from his victimhood. Both of these doctrines may be
worth discussing or debating elsewhere, but neither is relevant to cases
like _Boomer_ in which the wrongful act and the loss stemming from it
are still in the future and _can_ be reversed/undone (i.e., prevented
from happening at all) by order of the court.
In these types of cases, all the court has to do is require that the
potential victim's property rights are protected until and unless he
agrees to sell them at a mutually-acceptable price. There is no need
for the court to guess at the equitable value of the loss and force both
sides to accept its finding. It can leave that operation up to the
parties themselves.
In cases like _Boomer_, they're simply a cost of doing business. The
fact that the proprietors of the Atlantic Cement Co. got themselves into
a position in which they found themselves over this barrel is simply a
result of their own poor business decision to start up a cement plant
without _first_ trying to negotiate with Boomer and everyone else whose
property rights they'd be violating via the operation of their plant.
There's nothing punitive or unjust about it.
Anybody who wants to commit a wrongful act in the future should be
required to buy the right to do so from the victim, in advance. And the
seller should be allowed to set his or her price for the privilege. No
injustice, no punitive damages.
* * * * *
Doesn't sound very much like a libertarian to me. Libertarians tend to
believe in the rights of individual people, not societies.
* * * * *
As stated above, the tort was _ongoing_. Atlantic Cement wanted to be
able to _continue_ to violate Boomer's rights. While the court may have
been justified in setting an equitable price tag on the damage already
committed, it had no reason and no need to set a price tag on the
_future_ violations of Boomer's rights and to then force Boomer to sell
at that price. | 5 |
6,763 | From article <C5sEGz.Mwr@dscomsa.desy.de>, by hallam@dscomsa.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker):
[stuff about British cult members deleted]
They were using 50 caliber ammunition not 50mm ammo. 50mm would be 5cm; a
shell of this size would be larger than a lot of cannon shells.
Snipers could have screened the people trying to put out the fire. Besides,
the ranch house (not "fort apocalypse"; it was just a house despite what
the FBI and ATF says) was on *fire*. The "Gun loonies" couldn't hardly
have been shooting at fire men while there house was engulfed in flames.
The FBI and ATF don't have any excuse for not having fire engines there
to put out the blaze. The bastards waited until the fire was *well*
under way before they called the fire department in Waco. They didn't
even tell the fire department to be on standby. I sincerely hope that
the FBI, ATF, Attorney General Janet Reno, and all others involved in
this fiasco get the just punishment that they so richly deserve.
Someone should pay for this needless, tragic waste of human life.
Sadly, these evil SOBs will probably never face justice. The media
and the government will just whitewash this incident and chalk it
up as being solely David Koresh's fault. Sadder still, the American
people will probably believe them.
This is not the problem...the problem is that we have a government that
is becoming more tyrannical every day. If people decide to own guns
*and* live in one place together then that is their prerogative. On
the other hand, if the BDs were in posession of explosives and illegal
guns then the government did have the right to search their compound.
But, the allegations that the BDs were in posession of illegal weapons
hasn't been proven yet, so I'm not going to conclude that the BDs broke
any laws. David Koresh was accused of abusing children, but if this
is his *only* crime then the presence of the ATF can't be justified.
The ATF is only supposed to deal with firearms, tobacco, and alcohol
violations. ATF agents are basically cigarette cops...they should
stay out of other kinds of law-enforcement actions that are out of
their jurisdiction. Better yet, they should be s**tcanned IMO.
Sounds like something the SS would do. Human life---children and adults
alike---should be treated with respect---even if they are "heavily-armed
religious wackos".
David Koresh's lawyer seemed to think that everyone *would* come out
peacefully sooner or later. The FBI and ATF had NOTHING BUT TIME ON
THEIR HANDS! Why did they have to escalate the situation and cause
this senseless tragedy? Their job is to protect the public and SAVE
LIVES NOT KILL PEOPLE for crying out loud.
Don't be so sure about that. I read in a newspaper today that one of the
cult members said that when one of the tanks went through the wall that
it knocked over a lantern which caused the ranch house to be caught on
fire. This cult member also said that David Koresh had *no* intentions
of committing mass suicide. David Koresh's lawyer also confirms this.
Therefore, if this is true then this means that the FBI AND ATF MURDERED
EVERYONE IN THAT HOUSE! Even if this is not true, the FBI and ATF still
don't get off the hook because they waited a damn long time to call the
Waco fire department. Perhaps they wanted all these people to die.
You're wrong on several accounts. ATF agents were adequately armed. They
had MP5s, AR-15s, and shotguns. Some agents were armed with automatic
pistols but not all were. The ATF's initial claim---which they later
retracted---that agents were underarmed is simply ludicrous.
Gun control isn't the only issue here. If the sick little monkeys in
Washington try to use the Waco incident as a reason to ban guns then
they will have demonstrated just how f***ed up they are. What concerns
me much more than new gun control legislation is that the government
seems to be able to get away with s**t like they did in Waco...they are
becoming more and more callous about people's rights and the law. This
greatly disturbs me and it should disturb you as well.
Scott Kennedy, Brewer and Patriot | 5 |
2,437 |
If true, and if gays were the same as straights except
for sexual preference, I would imagine that gays would
have much less sex than straights because the available
pool for dates is less than one-tenth what it is for
straights. Somebody correct (flame) me please! | 5 |
6,144 |
This is not a "studies", but a study. Other studies, including the
just-published "Janus Report", give very different figures. The Janus
Report figures are not too different than Kinsey: 9% homosexual men,
and 4% bisexual men.
Don't be stupid. The Kinsey report is one study, so it can't be "all
over the map" all by itself. Other studies, including the Battelle
one, have also been criticed. As far as agendas go, this is really
chutzpah. *Your* agenda is obvious.
| 5 |
4,393 | Flash over is a frequent occurrence with indoor fires. A fire will
start small and in one location and heat the air. The temperature in
the room builds up and then everything inflammable in the room catches
fire at once.
This may have occurred in the BD compound, I have heard reports that
the windows were covered which would permit a fire to start unnoticed
by those outside the compound. When the fire got big enough, and
broke through the walls, it appeared to be started in two places but
was really one big fire.
Because of the large quantities of tear gas inserted into the building
it is possible that many of the women and children were in a room free
of tear gas they would try to seal the door to keep out the tear gas.
When they learned that a fire had broken out it was too late for them
to escape. They were trapped by the flames in their safe room.
I find it hard to believe that the FBI was not recording the final
assault. I think that they would have wanted to have tapes to show
their agents of the the FBI overcoming the "forces of evil", aka
the Branch Davidians. The tapes would also allow the FBI to prove
that they were not using excessive force.
| 5 |
4,384 |
Please cite specific examples where an Arab party member was rejected
while a Jewish party member was accepted. If you examine these I am
sure you will discover that the Arab party member did not have the power
base that his Jewish counterpart had. The party structure in Israel
has changed quite a bit insofar as knesset member elections go. Knesset
members for most parties are now elected via primaries. The top standing
members end up with cabinet posts. This is purely a political power
issue. Check the ranking of Arab labor party members, as opposed
to Jewsih members and let me know which posts are held by Jews that
ranked lower in the party than their Arab fellow electees.
Once again, if for arguments sake, all the Arab Israelis were to vote
for Labor at the next election, you can rest assured that the number of
Arab MKs and cabinet members would increase proportionately to the
power shift.
You are overlooking the fact that they wield political power
as individuals based upon a wider collective power base.
The reasoning I see at work is purely political. As far as security
goes I think that some serious gaffs were made by right wing Jews
as well - e.g. Sharon.
| 5 |
6,953 | If we can't avoid throwing out gut-reactions to what we see as "extremist"
views here in the newsgroup, we're certainly not going to be any better at
it in the real world. Hey, it easy here. After reading the offending post,
we can step back, take some deep breathing exercises, have a gallon of
ice cream (or sex, whichever calmsus), and reply in something other
than the usual king-of-the-hill mentality.
Perhaps, starting here with an immediate "accusation" is not a particularly
good way to generate open responses? How about explaining what you see as
being Israel's *real worries* and how they *need* to be addressed? Since
the "other side" sees Israel's "gestures" in a completely different light
than you do, perhaps "they" also have *real worries*. From their point
of view, what are they? How can those worries be addressed?
It is certainly much harder to "reach compromise" (or, even sit down
and talk with...) an other side which is fractured into several
different ideologies, each with its own set of "demands". While it is
up to "them" to generate unity on their side, is there anything that
Israel can do (without sacrificing its security, its position) to
encourage that unification along lines that Israel prefers?
| 5 |
7,091 |
Tsiel,
I would contend that there was shelling from both sides of the border,
starting from the early 70's. Certainly the PLO did shell Northern
Israel from the Arqoub region, but Israel did much more shelling
destroying several South Lebanese villages. At the very least
we can say that both sides exchanged shelling, with occasional
aerial raids by Israel on Lebanese villages.
In any case Steve's characterization that the 1982 invasion was only in
response to years of shelling from Lebanon is false. Israel had
many reasons for invading but mainly it did so to install a government
in Lebanon favorable to Israel, and it nearly achieved this aim
with the election of Basheer El Gemayel, and his brother, Amin
El Gemayel, but the internal situation in Lebanon was too hard
to control and predict so Israel had to withdraw, and Amin El Gemayel
had to abrogate the 17 th of May Agreement.
| 5 |
76 |
True. Today's Boston Globe interviewed a former Unification Church
leader who is now a consultant on cults. He said the FBI's approach
was totally wrong. He said they should have tried to break down the
BD's loyalty to Koresh through psychological means. Koresh's whole
theology was based on an approaching confrontation with the forces
of evil in the world and a seige mentality based on this. The Feds
played into his hands **PERFECTLY**. By surrounding the compound
with tanks and playing loud rock music and glaring lights at them
they strongly reinforced Koresh's message that the outside world was
evil and threatening. He said instead they should have set up
a picnic atmosphere, and acted inviting and friendly. If they
broadcast anything over PA systems it should have been loving
relatives reflecting on pleasant events from the cult members'
childhoods. The idea is to make the outside world and surrender
seem like a pleasant, desirable alternative. Interesting comments.
| 5 |
4,874 |
This might be illegal without a very specific Presidential declaration
or even a change in law. In general (sic), U.S. military troops are not
permitted to be used for domestic policing operations.
| 5 |
4,881 | In Turkish Genocide Apology <9304261739@zuma.UUCP> as scribed by its servile
dolt sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) we read a response to article <1993Apr26.
175246.24412@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) who
[EP] This has been discussed before, by several people, on this net. The
[EP] statement is attributable either to Hajj Amin al-Husseini, former Grand
[EP] Mufti of Jerusalem - and the leader of the Palestinian death squads
[EP] during the 1948 war, or to one of his chief henchmen.
[(*] In Russia General Dro (the Butcher), the architect of the Turkish
[(*] genocide in WWI, was working closely with the German Secret
[(*] Service. He entered the war zone with his own men and acquired
[(*] important intelligence about the Soviets. His experience with
[(*] the Turkish genocide in x-Soviet Armenia made him an invaluable
[(*] source for the Germans.[2]
What a fool! For the above to be true, [which it is not] the WWI Russian
General Dro must have worked from his grave to assist x-Soviet Armenia.
Soviet Armenia became ex-Soviet Armenia in 1991 and Dro died in 1958! Then
Dro would have to travel back in time, while dead, from 1991 to WWII to help
Nazi Germany!
| 5 |
3,586 | Tim> NNTP-Posting-Host: nwfocus.wa.com
Tim> I saw the film on CNN *as* it happend. It was clear from that
Tim> tape that the fire started in ONE location. Right where the
Tim> tank was attacking, and then had pulled back. There were not
Tim> several spots where the fire started, it started in one
Tim> location and was spread in the direction of the heavy wind.
Tim> The FBI claims to have seen or filmed several starting
Tim> points. Yet they keep this hidden. They have spread so much
Tim> lies. Well I guess if I was responsible for the mass murder
Tim> of 80 people who were exercising constitutional rights, I
Tim> would lie about it too...
Gosh, Tim, you must have seen a different live broadcast than I did. While
the smoke did emerge from one place initially, it was a considerable
distance from the tank, and in a very short time, fire appeared at several
places a good distance apart from there.
Then there's that nagging question about why, out of all those people,
only a few made any attempts to escape or save the children. If it were
me, with my child, [and I wasn't committing suicide,] I believe I would have
made SOME attempt to at least save the child. As it was, at least one of
the survivors was attempting to GO BACK INTO THE FIRE when they were
physically removed. No one lifted a finger to bring out a child, apparently.
How do you explain that? And the two survivors who claimed to have doused
the place with lantern oil and SET the fire (no doubt on David's orders).
[At least until the lawyers talked to them.]
Tim> And also, why have they not yet released the search warrant????
That *is* a good question. Maybe because it would be a further
embarrassment, seeing as how the ATF went in there in Dirty Harry mode
initially.
As stupidly as it all was handled, I find it difficult to believe that the
entire FBI has completely gone corrupt under a new administration less
than 100 days old. Stupidity and bad decisions and plans have always been
with us. They just had an alignment at Waco.
Tim> Seeeeee Ya turmoil@halcyon.com FUCK THE POLICE!!!!
See? Freedom of speech abounds.
L.
"Yeh, Buddy.. | larry@psl.nmsu.edu (Larry Cunningham)| _~~_
I've got your COMPUTER! | % Physical Science Laboratory | (O)(-)
Right HERE!!" | New Mexico State University | /..\
(computer THIS!) | Las Cruces, New Mexico, USA 88003 | <> | 5 |
1,732 | mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes,
(missing the entire point of my post):
No joke.
No,_you_jumped to_that_conclusion. It's actually an argument as
to how to accomplish the societal good of discouraging drug use
without violating individual rights.
No. _You_missed the point. The point is, the "War On Drugs"
is a failure, and is counterproductive.
But, they are not free to be stupid and injure other people.
Admittedly, the fetal right-to-life is outside the scope of
this discussion. However, it's ridiculous to assert, as you
apparently do, that cocaine has_no effect_on the developing
fetal nervous system. Caffiene and nicotine have fetal effects
too, why should cocaine be any exception?
If you had read my article before writing your knee-jerk response
you would have seen that this is exactly what I advocated.
No shit, Sherlock.
[...]
Thank you. How could you have missed the point so utterly?
What_have_you been smoking?
Obviously, importers will not be buying drugs in the U.S., under
U.S. jurisdiction. Use your remaining brain cells.
O.K., I'll spell it out for you. "Barter economy" means that
drug users will be permitted to grow or synthesize chemically
anything they choose, or to buy it outside the U.S. and bring
it in, if it won't grow here. They will also be permitted to
trade with other drug users for drugs other than the ones they
themselves grow or manufacture. They will not, however be able
to legally sell their drugs for money. Both manufacture and
importation of noncommercial drugs will be taxed, to discourage
their use. "This is your brain on drugs. Any questions?"
Pardon me, but possession/use of these drugs is still a crime!
You cannot analogize the rates at which drug users would seek
treatment, and the comparative ease with which it could be
made available today, when these drugs are illegal to possess/use,
with what it would be were they_not_illegal to possess/use.
Decriminalizing possession and use makes treatment_much_easier.
Drug dealers are exploiting the weaknesses of those persons who
are prone to addiction, and as such, the drug users should be
left alone, not thrown in prison along with their victimizers.
Drug_dealers_are the criminals, and should be treated as such.
Drug addiction does not absolve you of responsiblity for your
criminal actions, however.
The drug test of an arrested suspect is voluntary, not coerced,
and does not therefore constitute violation of Amendment V.
Those convicted who are drug users, as evidenced by the test,
are in need of treatment for their problem. Institutionalization
of these adddicted criminals is, I would argue, the best way to
help them straighten out. If they refuse the test and are convicted,
their sentence can be appropriately harsher, since they, unlike the
addict, have no "excuse" for their crimes.
Why not? My objective is to discourage drug use_and_criminal
behavior. If fewer criminals do drugs out of fear of getting a
harsher sentence if they are convicted, why is that not a good
thing? If fewer drug dealers (who are still criminals, BTW)
can find victims, why is that not a good thing? If fewer drug
users, such as drunks, 'potheads,' etc., commit crimes out of
fear of being cut off from their sources of supply, why is that
not a good thing?
I'm certainly willing to debate my position.
You have to read it carefully though. | 5 |
3,569 |
Oboy, this is exciting. First you discuss your non-existent literature
tastes, then your fantasies, and now your choices of historical revisionism.
Are you related to 'Arromdians' of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and
Revisionism Triangle?
The Agreement on the Exchange of Minorities uses the term 'Turks,'
which demonstrates what is actually meant by the previous reference
to 'Muslims.' The fact that the Greek governments also mention the
existence of a few thousand non-Turkish Muslims does not change the
essential reality that there lives in Western Thrace a much bigger
Turkish minority. The 'Pomaks' are also a Muslim people, whom all the
three nations (Bulgarians, Turks, and Greeks) consider as part of
themselves. Do you know how the Muslim Turkish minority was organized
according to the agreements?
It also proves that the Turkish people are trapped in Greece
and the Greek people are free to settle anywhere in the world.
The Greek authorities deny even the existence of a Turkish
minority. They pursue the same denial in connection with
the Macedonians of Greece. Talk about oppression. In addition,
in 1980 the 'democratic' Greek Parliament passed Law No. 1091,
virtually taking over the administration of the vakiflar and
other charitable trusts. They have ceased to be self-supporting
religious and cultural entities. Talk about fascism. The Greek
governments are attempting to appoint the muftus, irrespective
of the will of the Turkish minority, as state official. Although
the Orthodox Church has full authority in similar matters in
Greece, the Muslim Turkish minority will have no say in electing
its religious leaders. Talk about democracy.
The government of Greece has recently destroyed an Islamic
convention in Komotini. Such destruction, which reflects an
attitude against the Muslim Turkish cultural heritage, is a
violation of the Lausanne Convention as well as the 'so-called'
Greek Constitution, which is supposed to guarantee the protection
of historical monuments.
The government of Greece, on the other hand, is building new
churches in remote villages as a complementary step toward
Hellenizing the region.
The longstanding use of the adjective 'Turkish' in titles
and on signboards is prohibited. The Greek courts have
ordered the closure of the Turkish Teachers' Association,
the Komotini Turkish Youth Association and the Ksanti
Turkish Association on grounds that there are no Turks
in Western Thrace. Such community associations had been
active until 1984. But they were first told to remove
the word 'Turkish' on their buildings and on their official
papers and then eventually close down. This is also the
final verdict (November 4, 1987) of the Greek High Court.
Helsinki Watch, a well-known Human Rights group, had been investigating
the plight of the Turkish Minority in Greece. In August 1990, their
findings were published in a report titled
'Destroying Ethnic Identity: Turks of Greece.'
The report confirmed gross violations of the Human Rights of the
Turkish minority by the Greek authorities. It says for instance,
the Greek government recently destroyed an Islamic convent in
Komotini. Such destruction, which reflects an attitude against
the Muslim Turkish cultural heritage, is a violation of the
Lausanne Convention.
HELSINKI WATCH: "PROBLEMS OF TURKS IN WESTERN THRACE CONTINUE"
Ankara (A.A) In a 15-page report of the "Helsinki Watch" it is
stated that the Turkish minority in Western Thrace is still faced
with problems and stipulated that the discriminatory policy being
implemented by the Greek Government be brought to an end.
The report on Western Thrace emphasized that the Greek government
should grant social and political rights to all the members of
minorities that are equal to those enjoyed by Greek citizens and
in addition they must recognize the existence of the "Turkish
Minority" in Western Thrace and grant them the right to identify
themselves as 'Turks'.
NEWSPOT, May 1992
GREECE ISOLATES WEST THRACE TURKS
The Xanthi independent MP Ahmet Faikoglu said that the Greek
state is trying to cut all contacts and relations of the Turkish
minority with Turkey.
Pointing out that while the Greek minority living in Istanbul is
called "Greek" by ethnic definition, only the religion of the
minority in Western Thrace is considered. In an interview with
Turkish origin. The individuals of the minority living in Western
Trace are also Turkish."
Emphasizing the education problem for the Turkish minority in
Western Thrace Faikoglu said that according to an agreement
signed in 1951 Greece must distribute textbooks printed in Turkey
in Turkish minority schools in Western Thrace.
Recalling his activities and those of Komotini independent MP Dr.
SadIk Ahmet to defend the rights of the Turkish minority,
Faikoglu said. "In fact we helped Greece. Because we prevented
Greece, the cradle of democracy, from losing face before European
countries by forcing the Greek government to recognize our legal
rights."
On Turco-Greek relations, he pointed out that both countries are
predestined to live in peace for geographical and historical
reasons and said that Turkey and Greece must resist the foreign
powers who are trying to create a rift between them by
cooperating, adding that in Turkey he observed that there was
will to improve relations with Greece.
NEWSPOT, January 1993
MACEDONIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS TO FACE TRIAL IN GREECE.
Two ethnic Macedonian human rights activists will face trial in
Athens for alleged crimes against the Greek state, according to a
Court Summons (No. 5445) obtained by MILS.
Hristos Sideropoulos and Tashko Bulev (or Anastasios Bulis)
have been charged under Greek criminal law for making comments in
an Athenian magazine.
Sideropoulos and Bulev gave an interview to the Greek weekly
magazine "ENA" on March 11, 1992, and said that they as
Macedonians were denied basic human rights in Greece and would
field an ethnic Macedonian candidate for the up-coming Greek
general election.
Bulev said in the interview: "I am not Greek, I am Macedonian."
Sideropoulos said in the article that "Greece should recognise
Macedonia. The allegations regarding territorial aspirations
against Greece are tales... We are in a panic to secure the
border, at a time when the borders and barriers within the EEC
are falling."
The main charge against the two, according to the court
summons, was that "they have spread...intentionally false
information which might create unrest and fear among the
citizens, and might affect the public security or harm the
international interests of the country (Greece)."
The Greek state does not recognise the existence of a
Macedonian ethnicity. There are believed to be between 350,000 to
1,000,000 ethnic Macedonians living within Greece, largely
concentrated in the north. It is a crime against the Greek state
if anyone declares themselves Macedonian.
In 1913 Greece, Serbia-Yugoslavia and Bulgaria partioned
Macedonia into three pieces. In 1919 Albania took 50 Macedonian
villages. The part under Serbo-Yugoslav occupation broke away in
1991 as the independent Republic of Macedonia. There are 1.5
million Macedonians in the Republic; 500,000 in Bulgaria; 150,000
in Albania; and 300,000 in Serbia proper.
Sideropoulos has been a long time campaigner for Macedonian
human rights in Greece, and lost his job as a forestry worker a
few years ago. He was even exiled to an obscure Greek island in
the mediteranean. Only pressure from Amnesty International forced
the Greek government to allow him to return to his home town of
Florina (Lerin) in Northern Greece (Aegean Macedonia), where the
majority of ethnic Macedonians live.
Balkan watchers see the Sideropoulos affair as a show trial in
which Greece is desperate to clamp down on internal dissent,
especially when it comes to the issue of recognition for its
northern neighbour, the Republic of Macedonia.
Last year the State Department of the United States condemned
Greece for its bad treatment of ethnic Macedonians and Turks (who
largely live in Western Thrace). But it remains to be seen if the
US government will do anything until the Presidential elections
are over.
================================================================
M. I. L. S.
================================================================
91, Rue du Craetveld - Kraatveldstraat 91 Orce Nikolov 28 1120
BRUSSELS, Belgium SKOPJE, Macedonia tel/fax: +32/2/268 18 48
tel/fax:+38 91 201 566 modem: +32/2/262 28 97 n.acc:
Famibank-Citibank Belgium 954 8691431 92
Serdar Argic | 5 |
4,977 | Do we want to 'create jobs'? or do we want jobs created that are productive
in our supply/demand economy? If your answer is the former then we can
just round up all jobless people and pay them to build sandcastles in
the desert. If you answer the latter then I fail to see how another
bureaucracy produces anything. | 5 |
7,046 | Here is a press release from the American Federation of Teachers.
HHS Secretary Shalala to Address AFT's Paraprofessional and
School-Related Personnel Conference
To: National and Assignment desks, Education Writer
Contact: Jamie Horwitz of American Federation of Teachers,
202-879-4447
News Advisory:
Secretary of Health and Human Services Donna Shalala will speak
to the 16th annual AFT Paraprofessional and School-Related
Personnel Conference at 8 p.m., Friday, April 23, at the
Washington Hilton. Shalala will discuss HHS's agenda for helping
children over the next four years.
AFT's Paraprofessional and School-Related Personnel Division
includes school workers such as paraprofessionals and teacher
aides, school bus drivers, school secretaries, school custodians
and maintenance workers and school food service workers. More
than a thousand school employees will attend the conference which
is being held at the Washington Hilton, April 23-25. Most of the
school workers attending the conference come from urban school
districts where child health and nutrition, welfare reform and the
availability of Head Start and other preschool programs are major
issues.
Workshops scheduled for the conference include sessions
addressing issues around reauthorization of Chapter 1; how
paraprofessionals and school-related personnel, especially
minority men, can serve as student role models; the increasing
problem of school violence; dealing with abused children; and
assisting children with serious health problems.
For a complete conference schedule, contact Jamie Horwitz
at 202-879-4447.
The American Federation of Teachers represents 805,000
elementary and secondary teachers, paraprofessionals and
school-related personnel, higher education faculty, nurses, state
and municipal workers.
-30- | 5 |
78 |
...which would make the number 15%, right Clayton? | 5 |
4,923 |
What a lie..!!??
Ask the victims of the Nazis.
Don't take the Bosnian muslims' word for it.
Ask the Holoucost survivors who helped them, you will hear that
the Bosnian muslims (among others) helped them.
I also do object to the term ethnic cleansing, since what is happening
in Bosnia is not ethnic cleansing, they all have the same ethnicity,
what is different is religion. they are Orthodox christians, Catholic
christians, and Muslims.
It's religious cleansing.
Also watching people being rounded up and slaughtered by the slitting of
the throat, raped collectively and systematically, driven out of their
homes by the millions (!!!!), tortured in concentration camps, maimed
and ..... does indeed amount to moral rape.
Nothing in the history justifies what's happening.
| 5 |
6,838 |
> This is actually the law that David Irving
> will hopefully be found guilty under due to his denial of the Holocaust.
> It's too bad that this useless "Centre for Policy Research" isn't in Canada.
> It'd set a nice precedent to how the law applies in Cyberspace.
>
> Steve
Well canada is wrong. If it was in the US the ACLU would have
made sure that such repressive laws are found unconstitutional.
Do you think the Church didn't find Galileo's perception of the
universe offensive.
Bull shit. There is no reason in the world why we can't say that
taking views analogous to the KKK's or some such organization is
wrong. There is no reason why some morality may not be legislated. As
it is we do not allow theft, or murder, or rape. Why should we allow
hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence. | 5 |
5,657 |
(1)
You know ed,... You're right! Andi shouldn't be comparing
Israel to the Nazis. The Israelis are much worse than the
Nazis ever were anyway. The Nazis did a lot of good for
Germany, and they would have succeeded if it weren't for the
damn Jews. The Holocaust never happened anyway. Ample
evidence given by George Schafer at Harvard, Dept. of History,
and even by Randolph Higgins at NYU, have shown that the
Holocaust was just a semitic conspiracy created to obtain
sympathy to piush for the creation of Israel.
(2)
Just kidding.
Be careful rj3s. When people start finding humour in the Holocaust
they often run the danger of exposing themselves for the hateful
refuse that they really are. | 5 |
2,219 |
It is Clinton's initiative now. He is pushing it hard
Aren't the liberals supposed to be concerned about privacy
rights?
If you want to know more about the wiretapping initiative,
read "1984" - it's in there, installed in every bedroom.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's. | 5 |
4,440 |
There are doubts about it. Why don't you define what self-hating Jew means?
I found the idea itself of being a self-hating Jew to be one of those
rediculous things that people repeat and repeat because it seems to have a
meaning when in fact it has none.
I hope you can come up with a definition in itself and not something like:
look at this person, that is a self-hating Jew.
That is why I get moved when I see the Israeli Army killing people in
the Occupied Territories as much as I get moved when I see a Plestinian
stabing people in Israel. | 5 |
3,832 |
It was filmed the day of the first assault. The BDs clearly allowed the
BATF agents who were shot and wounded to leave the compound. The
lesson, I suppose is that you should keep shooting untill ALL the pigs
are dead and then get the fuck outa dodge. Never give a pig an even
break. | 5 |
1,778 |
While I wouldn't be too terribly impressed with anybody who got
to be paranoid based on either Usenet in general or Phill Hallam-Baker's
comments in general, you'd be surprised.
For most people, if you accuse them of something long enough and
loud enough, to enough people, they start to ask why they're bothering
to fight it.
If nothing you do will be considered right, why bother to do right?
It's pretty basic human nature.
What an amazing thing. I didn't realize that over a hundred million
gun owners all posted to tpg.
Even if *all* the posts in talk.politics.guns illustrated what
you say they illustrate, it would still only reflect the written
personas (which is often different from face-to-face) of a very, very
small and select group.
Anybody who seriously generalizes any attitudes or positions on
Usenet to the general population of any country either doesn't care
about accuracy or needs to have a few realities explained to them.
Speaking of which...
Most of the "readership" posts I've seen put the most read
newsgroups at about 160,000 readers, a number I have a feeling is
fairly inflated. The posters, rare and regular, are themseleves a
very tiny minority of that group. And the whole of Usenet readers
are themselves a very distorted sample of humanity.
If anything, the only real thing you can get out of the relative
sample of Usenet readers is that we've got too much equipment and too
much time available to us.
Proof that guns don't make you safer is that if you buy one the
government will show up and kill you?
Tell me, if the government took away the voting rights of
everybody who exercised their free speech, would that then be proof
that free speech squelches political activity?
You are equating two things with each other that don't.
Phill, if you really believe that the various posts on
computer nets represents *either* most of the poster's in person
personalities *or* the general public's general opinions, then
I have some serious reservations about your grasp on reality.
But don't expect you really do believe that. It's simply
a convenient way to make your point, and hopefully make those
people you don't like look bad.
Have a nice day, Phill.
| 5 |
3,893 |
Peter Nelson posted a very eloquent response to this point in
talk.politics.misc, so I need not consume more bandwidth here.
What I meant, if it was not clear, was the intersection set of liberal
and libertarian philosophies of "natural rights" and how the government
(and Constitutional interpretation in particular) fits into that
philosophy. This philosophy engages in the very serious practical
error of endowing the nine lawyers on the Supreme Court with an almost
totalitarian authority, completely outside of the consent or consensus
of The People. This is why Supreme Court nominations are such amazing
political fist-fights these days, because He who Controls the Court
Rules the Country. The people on the Court may well be trying to do
the best job they can, but they are at best a benevolent oligarch, even
if you approve of every Supreme Court decision ever. Eventually, an
oligarch will arise that will decimate that which you hold dear. Try
Supreme Court cases by Jury, and the problem would be mitigated a great
deal.
Those who would create broad, non-enumerated government powers at any
level (as in European Parlamentary Democracies and the current de-facto
standard in the U.S.) have essentially engaged in the same fundamental
mistake, except that it is some different body that has the totalitarian,
virtually unchecked (except by plurality election, death, or retirement),
government power.
This is like asking why the wind blows, unless you can prove that
the fact of your engaging in certain activities has absolutely no
effect whatsoever on any other human being who has not consented to
your engagement in those activities. Very few human activities indeed
fit into this category.
Even for those few that do, who would you empower to make the judgement
of what is and is not a fully autonomous activity? Who defines "picking
my pocket" and "defrauding"? Are economic assets a person's only assets,
or are peace of mind, stability, confidence in a child's emotional
environment, security, and many other things not also a part of a person's
assets? What gives you the right to create a moral environment that a
parent strongly objects to? What gives you the right to create an
environment of social unrest and instability? If you say that what you
do does not have those effects, by what authority do you say that? Who
is empowered to make these value judgements?
If the Federal Constitution explicitly prohibited you from doing so, the
federal government would prevent you from doing so. If it did not, and
you could muster enough local support to pass an amendment to the local
Constitution (by, say, a 3/4 majority) empowering the local government
to do so, then I would have to vote with my feet and move to a neighborhood
more friendly to my own system of values. This is not an ideal situation,
but it is far better than the mess we are mired in right now.
When you define "rights" very broadly, there is no practical choice about
whether people will or will not infringe upon your rights since these
"rights" overlap. Even when rights are defined very narrowly, the government
has been empowered to prevent others from infringing on your rights. The
fundamental question is, by whose authority is that power created. If you
support the current situation with a "natural rights" Supreme Court (rather
than an "original understanding" Supreme Court or, even better, Supreme
Court by Jury), you are consenting to having nine lawyers in Washington,
D.C. create those powers out of the air. In my "Fractal Federalism" scenario,
it is a broad consensus of The People (i.e. the amendment process) that
creates those powers.
No, I mean the federal government that comes trucking in with guns to
tell the locals how to run their neighborhood. Waco, TX is a nice example.
If you create a community where public masturbation is permitted in the
cause of "personal autonomy", have you done anything different? What
precisely are these autonomous activities you are referring to? If you
list them, perhaps we can get enough people to agree that they are truly
autonomous and pass a constitutional amendment protecting them.
The Koresh Incident appears to be a horrendous abuse of government power,
power possibly illegitimately obtained through a means I would abolish.
The constitutionality of "no-knock" warrants seems very dubious to me, not
to mention the mere existence of BATF and the government's propensity to
ignore the word "infringe" in the Second Amendment. This power is upheld
by the same body, with its incredible concentration of power in the hands
of nine people, that has upheld much so-called "Civil Rights" (read- affirmative
action) legislation despite the Fourteenth Amendment.
Money is certainly not the only asset I have in this world. If it were,
this would be a bleak existence indeed.
Matt Freivald
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
LiBORGalism:
THINKING IS IRRELEVANT. INTEGRITY IS IRRELEVANT.
FREE SPEECH IS IRRELEVANT. PRIVATE PROPERTY IS IRRELEVANT.
PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY IS IRRELEVANT.
CONSERVATIVISM IS FUTILE.
YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
THESE ARE MY OPINIONS ONLY AND NOT THOSE OF MY EMPLOYER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | 5 |
6,855 |
They police did not beat King when he was on the ground. They beat him when
he was on his knees trying to get back up. If you had watche d the entire
video you would have seen this.
If you think this is true, much less relevant, than you are in sadder shape
than I thought. | 5 |
2,104 |
If you won't believe anything the government says, and the press
is not reliable according to the same logic, then what do you base
your statements on? Wild speculation laced with a healthy dose
of paranoia?
| 5 |
2,234 |
If Croats are now divided, it is because Croatia seceded from Yugoslavia.
Croats in Croatia, B-H, and Serbia were in *one* country--Yugoslavia--
until they divided themselves.
If Muslims are now divided, it is because B-H seceded from Yugoslavia.
Muslims in Croatia, B-H, and Serbia were in *one* country--Yugoslavia--
until they divided themselves.
That Croats and Muslims in Yugoslavia decided to divide themselves does
*not* give them the right to divide Serbs in Yugoslavia.
Croatia and B-H shoulder the burden for dividing their own nations among
various unstable countries. | 5 |
7,468 |
Your ignorance is hardly characteristic of most '*ians'. Sarkis Atamian
explains in his book called 'The Armenian Community, New York 1955,
Philosophical Library' that, according to historians, original fatherland
of the Armenians was in Thessaly, Greece. Armenian invaders burned and
sacked the fatherland of Urartus, massacred and exterminated its population
and presented to the world all those left from the Urartus, as the Armenian
civilization. All reliable western historians describe how Armenians
ruthlessly exterminated 2.5 million Muslim women, children and elderly
people of Eastern Anatolia and how they collaborated with the enemies of
the Muslim people between 1914-1920. It is unfortunately a truth that
Armenians are known as collaborators of the Nazis during World War II
and that, even today, criminal members of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism
Triangle preach and instigate racism, hatred, violence and terrorism
among peoples.
Who says 'Arromdians' are no damn good? During World War II Armenians
were carried away with the German might and cringing and fawning over
the Nazis. In that zeal, the Armenian publication in Germany, Hairenik,
carried statements as follows:[1]
"Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements (the Jews)
when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it
becomes necessary for a people (the Nazis) to eradicate them in an uncommon
method, these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During the surgical
operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing."
Now for a brief view of the Armenian genocide of the Muslims and Jews -
extracts from a letter dated December 11, 1983, published in the San
Francisco Chronicle, as an answer to a letter that had been published
in the same journal under the signature of one B. Amarian.
"We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian atrocities
against our people (Jews). Members of our family witnessed the
murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian
neighbors, bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish
and/or Muslim. Armenians should look to their own history and see
the havoc they and their ancestors perpetrated upon their neighbors.
Armenians were in league with Hitler in the last war, on his premise
to grant themselves government if, in return, the Armenians would
help exterminate Jews. Armenians were also hearty proponents of
the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian Communists."
Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California.
[1] James G. Mandalian, 'Dro, Drastamat Kanayan,' in the 'Armenian
Review,' a Quarterly by the Hairenik Association, Inc., Summer:
June 1957, Vol. X, No. 2-38.
And stick around...
Serdar Argic | 5 |
5,209 |
This is quite a misrepresentation. After WWI, many Bosnian Muslims were
killed and their land taken over by Serbs, and the motive was plunder,
not some fictitious "supression of rebellion." Even earlier, one can
point to the destruction of mosques in Serbia itself and expulsion of
Muslims. Here is what Dr. Vaso Cubrilovic, political adviser to the
Serbian monarchic regime, says in his memorandum "The Expulsion of the
Arnauts" which he presented to the royal government of Stojadinovic
on March 7, 1937, in Belgrade:
The Mode of Removal
-------------------
[ describes how expulsion of ethnic Albanians from Kosova is to proceed
through state terror and "private initiative", i.e. Chetnik plunder: ]
Private initiative, too, can assist greatly in this direction. We should
distribute weapons to our colonists, as need be. The old forms of Chetnik
action should be organized and secretly assisted. [...]
...the whole affair should be presented as a conflict between clans and,
if need be, ascribed to economic reasons. Finally, local riots can be
incited. These will be bloodily suppressed with the clans and the
Chetniks, rather than the army.
There remains one more means, WHICH SERBIA EMPLOYED WITH GREAT PRACTICAL
EFFECT AFTER 1878, that is, by secretly burning down Albanian villages
and city quarters.
(Emphasis above is mine.) These events in Serbia itself forced out virtually
all Muslims during late 19th century. This policy of state terrorism
against Muslims, aided by Chetnik "private initiative," has continued in WWII
and today. For example, Muhamed Hadzijahic in his book "Od tradicije do
identiteta: Geneza nacionalnog pitanja bosanskih Muslimana" (Sarajevo:
Svjetlost, 1974) writes (pg. 235) how Serbs killed a Muslim in Foca
in WWII even though he claimed to be a Serbian patriot, explaining
their action as follows:
"Inasmuch as you were a Serb, you sullied the Serb name, because you
are a Turk [i.e. Muslim]. And since you helped us, we shall not
torture you."
so the shot him instead of cutting his throat. In the past year, Serbs
have repeated the slaughter of Muslim residents of Foca. Destruction
of mosques, including priceless historical monuments, completes the
eradication of the Muslim presence from territories claimed by Serbs.
Which part do you claim is untrue? Explain yourself, or withdraw your claim.
Croatia never had many Muslim citizens for historical reasons, because it
was not a part of the Ottoman Empire. The last major battles between
Austro-Hungarian monarchy and the Ottoman Empire in Croatia were at the
end of the 17th century. Need I remind you that modern Croatian nationalism
came into being with Dr. Ante Starcevic, who saw Bosnian Muslims as the
best Croats, so much so that in 1853 he contemplated moving his operations
to Sarajevo? You are confusing clericalist Croatianism with Croatian
nationalism here. Political nationalism has always been stronger. As
for your other theories, you are clearly overjoyed that Croat-Muslim
alliance in Bosnia-Herzegovina is now in trouble. Arguments such as
yours are clearly intended to create and deepen this split.
In international relations 101 you'll learn that unless weak unite to
counterbalance the strong player, soon they are taken over and that's the
end of them. Balance of power thinking has brought together Croats
and Bosnian Muslims. This is only natural; all other alignments are
unstable. I'm working on pointing out this basic fact: Croats and
Muslims have been aware of it for as long as Serbia has existed.
You are wrong if you think only "image" is at stake here. Croatia has
a deep interest in her alliance with Bosnian Muslims, and vice versa.
I think Tudjman understands this, although he does not have much choice
at this point. Tensions should have been defused better earlier, before
any open confrontation developed. Although I still think Croatia will
survive, it will lose a lot; but Bosnian Muslims may end up even worse
off. However, their position now is so horrible that perhaps they do not
see it getting any worse. The key point is: do they still have any hope left?
If not, then all bets are off.
Mr. Stojanovic is clearly very, very happy about this. I'm deeply hurt.
This is not about some "image" but about survival of a concept of a
partnership which I believe is natural and essential for both Croats
and Muslims. | 5 |
2,068 |
So far, you have presented your opinions as opposed to mine. I would
hardly take them as facts.
I could give you hundreds of words in my mother tongue (Spanish), that
are comonly use and you will never find in a dictionary. Even more, I
could show you a lot of meanings that words in Spanish have different
from those in the dictionary.
And guess why. Isn't it curious that we do not know how many people define
in how many different ways the term Jew, which is the basis of the movement
itself?
So, the evidence shows that up to now, Jew, when considered in terms of Israel,
the Law of Return and Jewish Nationality is defined in terms of religion and
not of cultural identity, even if 80% of those defined as Jews in Isreal
are not religious.
That IS a problem. I am saying that I do not support Zionism as it is
now. I believe that among the people in the Soviet Communist Party some
might even had been inspired by noble ideals. Does that change the
final results of what happened in the USSR?
In the same way, even if the Zionist movement is not homogeneous, it
does not matter. What matters is the result.
I never said it directly nor indirectly. I am not talking about individuals
who defined themselves as zionists here. I am sure most of them are good,
honest and caring people. I am talking about the results of the Zionist
Movement. I am talking about a Movement whose actions resulted in a
Law of Return with a religious definition of Jew, a country that defines
nationality based on religion. I am talking about something I consider
a form of racism such as differenciation based on religious belief.
After all, if Arabs in Israel cannot serve in the Army is becasue they
were not born in the "right" religion.
I had never heard the definition: Only those who are religious are defined as Jews.
I had always seen the definition: A person is a Jew is his/her mother is/was
a Jew, and if such person does not convert, although I had seen people
argue about the last part.
So, there is no difference between citizenship and nationality in Israel?
Or what do you mean by "Actually, it doesn't"?
So, it follows a religious definition and not a cultural one. That is what
I call a form of racism.
You do not need to assume the representation of "everybody else" to
make your points. You should assume that you are just talking for yourself.
About the other stuff, I still believe that the example was a valid one.
It would be a hypocrisy to say that one supports nationalism for all and
then support Zionism and then disregard the Palestinian's right.
It was an example. You are trying to justify something nobody has
talked about.
Reference.
yes, but not all of them. A language is something that evolves all the time.
Not really. I posted in another post the definition of Zionism. And, in
this post you have showed for me what I was telling you from the
begining. Zionism is a form of racism, even if most zionists are not
racist in their individual and private lifes. A movement that ask
for a State and National rights for a people, and then in practice,
that people are defined according to religion is, for me, racist-like.
You did it. Next time be more careful.
Do you know the difference between opinion and fact?
| 5 |
286 |
Owwww!! Mr. Jefferson would be clearly disappointed in your designation of
him as author of the bill of rights. And your reference to those
in Israel was condesceding and inappropriate.
The Declaratio of Independence of 1776 was written by Thomas Jefferson.
In 1787, the Constitution was drafted by 55 men in Philadelphia.
In 1791, the Bill of Rights was added. Well, maybe Jefferson
would be flattered.
As to you guys at UVA, your right, not all of you are anti-Jewish,
or self-hating. But when I visited Charlottesville, I noticed
a distinct lack of diversity, from which I must assume you garner
your inability to perceive the reality of the outside world.
| 5 |
3,164 | -> >->
-> >-> For those who still doubt what is going on, this is
-> >-> from the still uncensored AP wire:
-> >->
-> >-> Two journalists from Houston arrested at gun-point and
-> >-> cuffed and jailed for taking pictures of the compound today.
-> >-> Later released on bail, but cameras and film were confiscated.
-> >->
-> >-> jh
-> >
-> > You could work for CNN. Take a few lines from a story and
-> >imply something with it but don't say what you really mean.
-> >
-> > The police always close off the area around a major crime
-> >scene to keep evidence from being disturbed
->
-> By taking pictures?
They leave foot prints, they may drop some trash on the
ground, and they may pick up something that looks interesting.
->
-> >, and it is a misdemeanor
-> >to enter the closed off area. One of the photographers also quickly
-> >spun around with a long lens camera while the officer was approaching,
-> >a good way to get shot.
->
-> Well, that (hopefully) depends on what country one is in.
It has nothing to do with the country. You are coming toward
someone in an area where there has been violent confrontations, and
one guy spins around quickly with an object that looks like a gun.
Police are not trained to stand there and let someone gun them down.
-> There was also no indication in that story
-> >that they wouldn't get their cameras and film back after getting out
-> >of jail.
->
-> Once goverment agents have had an opportunity to check
-> the film out.
You're making statements that are not supported by facts.
Don't let paranoia get the best of you. Wait to see if the reporters
don't get their film back or they get it back developed before
screaming conspiracy.
->
-> I think it was Barry Goldwater who once said "the goverment
-> that is big enough to give you everything is big enough to
-> take everything from you." You life and/or freedom including.
-> Of course, that could not happen to you, could it?
Our government is not big enough to give you everything,
despite the efforts of people like Bill Clinton. Taking a statement
like that and thinking `everything done in the name of law enforcement
is wrong' is simple minded and ignorant of history. A government is a
necessary evil, and we must decide what it should be allowed to do
based on facts, history, and not by baseless claims. | 5 |
4,470 |
This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I have heard from the
Europeans. "Let's let the Serbs massacre, rape, and ethnically clean
100,000 Bosnians because we don't want our pretty blue berets there
to get scratched". Well, I say, get them the hell out of there if you're
worried for them, but don't deny Bosnians their basic right to self
defense! Lift the embargo against Bosnia, and let them defend themselves.
What makes the UN troops more valuable than the Bosnian people? They
are letting the civilians die so the soldiers could survive, when
if anything, it should be the other way around. Idiots like Owen
expect Bosnians to swallow a forced plan, and just hope this problem
will go away. Well they're wrong. If they had got their butts in gear
(that is, if Bosnia had oil) a year ago, much of this could be prevented.
Now, however, the results of this tragedy will last for generations.
That's like forcing the jews to make peace with Hitler. Yeah right.
This, as senator Biden said, reeks of bigotry, and makes me and any
decent human being for that matter, quite sick. It should be the
Europeans, not the Americans, who take the inititiative and ask the
other for support. This is their backyard, not the Americans.
Today it's Bosnia, tomorrow it will be Kosovo and Macedonia, Greece,
and then Turkey, and the damn thing will spread. Not to mention
European muslims who weren't even practicing before will rally to
fundamentalism. Good luck handling that, your majesty! Owen was
upset at the question which compared him to Chamberlain, who hoped
to appease Hitler. He said that Chamberlain had been in Munich 2 years
before any war, I have been here during a blazing war for the last
18 months. Well, that makes him even worse, because Chamberlain could
have at least argued I'm giving Germany the benefit of the doubt,
whereas Owen can't even do that. What the west is doing is aiding the
Serbs by tying the Bosnians' hands, and making the stupid excuse of their
powerless troops on the ground, who can't even protect the Bosnian foreign
minister in their own armored vehicle, and watch the killers just walk
away! What kind of peace is this? What kind of civilization is this?
European leaders are PATHETIC, and are helping a genocide which even they
will not be able to forget. Yeah, they'll go to Africa and fight for some
damn dictator in their former colony, they'll go to Kuwait and fight for
oil, but in Bosnia not only they won't fight aggression, they'll even
tie the hands of the victim. Now you tell me who is fooling whom.
| 5 |
692 | THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
______________________________________________________________
For Immediate Release April 20, 1993
REMARKS BY THE PRESIDENT
IN QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSION WITH THE PRESS
The Rose Garden
1:36 P.M. EDT
THE PRESIDENT: On February the 28th, four federal
agents were killed in the line of duty trying to enforce the law
against the Branch Davidian compound, which had illegally stockpiled
weaponry and ammunition, and placed innocent children at risk.
Because the BATF operation had failed to meet its objective, a 51-day
standoff ensued.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation then made every
reasonable effort to bring this perilous situation to an end without
bloodshed and further loss of life. The Bureau's efforts were
ultimately unavailing because the individual with whom they were
dealing, David Koresh, was dangerous, irrational, and probably
insane.
He engaged in numerous activities which violated both
federal law and common standards of decency. He was, moreover,
responsible for the deaths and injuries which occurred during the
action against the compound in February. Given his inclination
towards violence and in an effort to protect his young hostages, no
provocative actions were taken for more than seven weeks by federal
agents against the compound.
This weekend I was briefed by Attorney General Reno on
an operation prepared by the FBI, designed to increase pressure on
Koresh and persuade those in the compound to surrender peacefully.
The plan included a decision to withhold the use of ammunition, even
in the face of fire, and instead to use tear gas that would not cause
permanent harm to health, but would, it was hoped, force the people
in the compound to come outside and to surrender.
I was informed of the plan to end the siege. I
discussed it with Attorney General Reno. I asked the questions I
thought it was appropriate for me to ask. I then told her to do what
she thought was right, and I take full responsibility for the
implementation of the decision.
Yesterday's action ended in a horrible human tragedy.
Mr. Koresh's response to the demands for his surrender by federal
agents was to destroy himself and murder the children who were his
captives, as well as all the other people who were there who did not
survive. He killed those he controlled, and he bears ultimate
responsibility for the carnage that ensued.
Now we must review the past with an eye towards the
future. I have directed the United Stated Departments of Justice and
Treasury to undertake a vigorous and thorough investigation to
uncover what happened and why, and whether anything could have been
done differently. I have told the departments to involve independent
professional law enforcement officials in the investigation. I
expect to receive analysis and answers in whatever time is required
to complete the review. Finally, I have directed the departments to
cooperate fully with all congressional inquiries so that we can
continue to be fully accountable to the American people.
I want to express my appreciation to the Attorney
General, to the Justice Department, and to the federal agents on the
front lines who did the best job they could under deeply difficult
circumstances.
Again, I want to say as I did yesterday, I am very sorry
for the loss of life which occurred at the beginning and at the end
of this tragedy in Waco. I hope very much that others who will be
tempted to join cults and to become involved with people like David
Koresh will be deterred by the horrible scenes they have seen over
the last seven weeks. And I hope very much that the difficult
situations which federal agents confronted there and which they will
be doubtless required to confront in other contexts in the future
will be somewhat better handled and better understood because of what
has been learned now.
Q Mr. President, can you, first of all, tell us why,
after 51 days, you decided --
Q Mr. President, can you describe for us what it is
that Janet Reno outlined to you in your 15-minute phone conversation
with --
THE PRESIDENT: I can't hear you both. If one will go
first and then the other.
Q Sorry. Can you describe what Janet Reno --
Q Mr. President --
THE PRESIDENT: I'll answer both your questions, but I
can't do it at once.
Q Can you describe what she told you on Sunday about
the nature of the operation and how much detail you knew about it?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. I was told by the Attorney General
that the FBI strongly felt that the time had come to take another
step in trying to dislodge the people in the compound. And she
described generally what the operation would be -- that they wanted
to go in and use tear gas which had been tested not to cause
permanent damage to adults or to children, but which would make it
very difficult for people to stay inside the building. And it was
hoped that the tear gas would permit them to come outside.
I was further told that under no circumstances would our
people fire any shots at them even if fired upon. They were going to
shoot the tear gas from armored vehicles which would protect them and
there would be no exchange of fire. In fact, as you know, an awful
lot of shots were fired by the cult members at the federal officials.
There were no shots coming back from the government side.
I asked a number of questions. The first question I
asked is, why now? We have waited seven weeks; why now? The reasons
I was given were the following:
Number one, that there was a limit to how long the
federal authorities could maintain with their limited resources the
quality and intensity of coverage by experts there. They might be
needed in other parts of the country.
Number two, that the people who had reviewed this had
never seen a case quite like this one before, and they were convinced
that no progress had been made recently and no progress was going to
be made through the normal means of getting Koresh and the other cult
members to come out.
Number three, that the danger of their doing something
to themselves or to others was likely to increase, not decrease, with
the passage of time.
And number four, that they had reason to believe that
the children who were still inside the compound were being abused
significantly, as well as being forced to live in unsanitary and
unsafe conditions.
So for those reasons, they wanted to move at that time.
The second question I asked the Attorney General is whether they had
given consideration to all of the things that could go wrong and
evaluated them against what might happen that was good. She said
that the FBI personnel on the scene and those working with them were
convinced that the chances of bad things happening would only
increase with the passage of time.
The third question I asked was, has the military been
consulted? As soon as the initial tragedy came to light in Waco,
that's the first thing I asked to be done, because it was obvious
that this was not a typical law enforcement situation. Military
people were then brought in, helped to analyze the situation and some
of the problems that were presented by it. And so I asked if the
military had been consulted. The Attorney General said that they
had, and that they were in basic agreement that there was only one
minor tactical difference of opinion between the FBI and the military
-- something that both sides thought was not of overwhelming
significance.
Having asked those questions and gotten those answers, I
said that if she thought it was the right thing to do, that she
should proceed and that I would support it. And I stand by that
today.
Q Mr. President --
THE PRESIDENT: Wait. Go ahead.
Q Can you address the widespread perception --
reported widely, television, radio and newspapers -- that you were
trying somehow to distance yourself from this disaster?
THE PRESIDENT: No, I'm bewildered by it. The only
reason I made no public statement yesterday -- let me say -- the only
reason I made no public statement yesterday is that I had nothing to
add to what was being said and I literally did not know until rather
late in the day whether anybody was still alive other than those who
had been actually seen and taken to the hospital or taken into
custody. It was purely and simply a question of waiting for events
to unfold.
There was -- I have -- I can't account for why people
speculated one way or the other, but I talked to the Attorney General
on the day before the action took place. I talked to her yesterday.
I called her again late last night after she appeared on the Larry
King Show, and I talked to her again this morning. A President -- it
is not possible for a President to distance himself from things that
happen when the federal government is in control.
I will say this, however. I was, frankly, surprised
would be a mild word, to say that anyone that would suggest that the
Attorney General should resign because some religious fanatics
murdered themselves. (Applause.)
I regret what happened, but it is not possible in this
life to control the behavior of others in every circumstance. These
people killed four federal officials in the line of duty. They were
heavily armed. They fired on federal officials yesterday repeatedly,
and they were never fired back on. We did everything we could to
avoid the loss of life. They made the decision to immolate
themselves. And I regret it terribly, and I feel awful about the
children.
But in the end, the last comment I had from Janet Reno,
is when -- and I talked to her on Sunday -- I said, now, I want you
to tell me once more why you believe -- not why they believe -- why
you believe we should move now rather than wait some more. And she
said, it's because of the children. They have evidence that those
children are still being abused and that they're in increasingly
unsafe conditions, and that they don't think it will get any easier
with time -- with the passage of time. I have to take their word for
that. So that is where I think things stand.
Q Can we assume then that you don't think this was
mishandled in view of the outcome, that you didn't run out of
patience? And if you had it to do over again, would you really
decide that way?
THE PRESIDENT: No -- well, I think what you can assume
is just exactly what I announced today. This is a -- the FBI has
done a lot of things right for this country over a long period of
time. This is the same FBI that found the people that bombed the
World Trade Center in lickety-split, record time. We want an inquiry
to analyze the steps along the way. Is there something else we
should have known? Is there some other question they should have
asked? Is there some other question I should have asked? Can I say
for sure that no one -- that we could have done nothing else to make
the outcome come different? I don't know that. That's why I want
the inquiry and that's why I would like to make sure that we have
some independent law enforcement people, not political people, but
totally non-political, outside experts who can bring to bear the best
evidence we have.
There is, unfortunately, a rise in this sort of
fanaticism all across the world. And we may have to confront it
again. And I want to know whether there is anything we can do,
particularly when there are children involved. But I do think it is
important to recognize that the wrong-doers in this case were the
people who killed others and then killed themselves.
Q Mr. President, were there any other options
presented to you for resolving this situation at any point from
February 28th until yesterday?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, yes, I got regular reports all
along the way. There were lots of other options pursued. If you go
back -- you all covered it very well. The FBI -- you did a very good
job of it. I mean, the FBI and the other authorities there pursued
any number of other options all along the way, and a lot of them
early on seemed to be working. Some of the children got out, some of
the other people left. There was a -- at one point, there seemed to
be some lines of communication opening up between Koresh and the
authorities. And then he would say things and not do them and things
just began to spin downward.
Whether there were other -- in terms of what happened
yesterday, the conversation I had with the Attorney General did not
involve other options except whether we should take more time with
the present strategy we were pursuing -- because they said they
wanted to do this, because they thought this was the best way to get
people out of the compound quickly before they could kill themselves.
That's what they thought.
Q Did the government know that the children did not
have gas masks?
Q congressional hearings once the situation -- are
you in agreement with that?
THE PRESIDENT: That's up to the Congress. They can do
whatever they want. But I think it's very important that the
Treasury and Justice Departments launch this investigation and bring
in some outside experts. And as I said in my statement, if any
congressional committees want to look into it, we will fully
cooperate. There is nothing to hide here. This was probably the
most well-covered operation of its kind in the history of the
country.
Go ahead, Sarah.
Q There are two questions I want to ask you. The
first is, I think that they knew very well that the children did not
have gas masks while the adults did, so the children had no chance
because this gas was very -- she said it was not lethal, but it was
very dangerous to the children and they could not have survived
without gas masks. And on February 28th -- let's go back -- didn't
those people have a right to practice their religion?
THE PRESIDENT: They were not just practicing their
religion, they were -- the Treasury Department believed that they had
violated federal laws, any number of them.
Q What federal laws --
THE PRESIDENT: Let me go back and answer -- I can't
answer the question about the gas masks, except to tell you that the
whole purpose of using the tear gas was that it had been tested; they
were convinced that it wouldn't kill either a child or an adult but
it would force anybody that breathed it to run outside. And one of
the things that I've heard -- I don't want to get into the details of
this because I don't know -- but one of the things that they were
speculating about today was that the wind was blowing so fast that
the windows might have been opened and some of the gas might have
escaped and that may be why it didn't have the desired effect.
They also knew, Sarah, that there was an underground
compound -- a bus buried underground where the children could be
sent. And they were -- I think they were hoping very much that if
the children were not released immediately outside that the humane
thing would be done and that the children would be sent someplace
where they could be protected.
In terms of the gas masks themselves, I learned
yesterday -- I did not ask this fact question before -- that the gas
was supposed to stay active in the compound longer than the gas masks
themselves were to work. So that it was thought that even if they
all had gas masks, that eventually the gas would force them out in a
nonviolent, nonshooting circumstance.
MS. MYERS: Last question.
Q Mr. President, why are you still saying that --
Q Could you tell us whether or not you ever asked
Janet Reno about the possibility of a mass suicide? And when you
learned about the actual fire and explosion what went through your
mind during those horrendous moments?
THE PRESIDENT: What I asked Janet Reno is if they had
considered all the worse things that could happen. And she said --
and, of course, the whole issue of suicide had been raised in the
public -- he had -- that had been debated anyway. And she said that
the people who were most knowledgeable about these kinds of issues
concluded that there was no greater risk of that now than there would
be tomorrow or the next day or the day after that or at anytime in
the future. That was the judgment they made. Whether they were
right or wrong, of course, we will never know.
What happened when I saw the fire, when I saw the
building burning? I was sick. I felt terrible. And my immediate
concern was whether the children had gotten out and whether they were
escaping or whether they were inside, trying to burn themselves up.
That's the first thing I wanted to know.
Thank you.
Q Mr. President, why are you still saying it was a
Janet Reno decision? Isn't it, in the end, your decision?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, what I'm saying is that I didn't
have a four- or five-hour, detailed briefing from the FBI. I didn't
go over every strategic part of it. It is a decision for which I
take responsibility. I'm the President of the United States and I
signed off on the general decision and giving her the authority to
make the last call. When I talked to her on Sunday, some time had
elapsed. She might have made a decision to change her mind. I said,
if you decide to go forward with this tomorrow, I will support you.
And I do support her.
She is not ultimately responsible to the American
people; I am. But I think she has conducted her duties in an
appropriate fashion and she has dealt with this situation I think as
well as she could have.
Thank you. (Applause.) | 5 |
2,441 |
Proving once again that Brett has a major thinking problem...
Two groups that the government insure are the elderly and the "medically an
needy" (those who have impoverished themselves through spending for medical
care). The typical elderly person spends 3.5 times what a person under age
65. The typical medically needy person spends about 10 times what the
average person does.
You've got to adjust those data, Brett. | 5 |
19 | I just called Texas' legislative bill tracking service and found out
that HB 1776 (Concealed Carry) is scheduled for a floor vote TODAY!
Let those phone calls roll in.
Daryl | 5 |
5,182 |
The above explained propaganda which certainly has nothing to do with
the true facts is also today the main source of ASALA/SDPA/ARF terrorists'
illegal activities that still try to make money out of the bodies of
the innocent victims of the Turkish genocide.
The criminal acts of the x-Soviet Armenian Government come directly
under the scope of the Convention on Genocide adopted by the General
Assembly of the United Nations on December 8, 1948, containing the
following provisions:
The Contracting Parties, having considered the declaration made
by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution
95 (1) dated December 11, 1946, that genocide is a crime under
international law, contrary to the spirit and aims of the United
Nations and condemned by the civilized world;
Recognizing that in all periods of history genocide has inflicted
great losses on humanity; and
Being convinced that, in order to liberate mankind from such odious
scourge, international cooperation is required;
Members agree as hereinafter provided:
Article 1. The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether
committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under
international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.
Article 2. In the present Convention genocide means any of the
following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or
in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as
such:
A) Killing member of the group;
B) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
C) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life
calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole
or in part;
D) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
E) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group;
Article 3. The following acts shall be punishable:
a) Genocide
b) Conspiracy to commit genocide
c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide
d) Attempt to commit genocide.
Article 4. Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts
enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are
constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private
individuals.
Had the Convention on Genocide existed before the Armenian
massacres of the Turks and Kurds, it would probably have been
difficult for the x-Soviet Armenian Government and its responsibles
to start murdering of civilian, defenseless, faithful Ottoman
citizens, children and women, (GENOCIDE AND ATTEMPT TO GENOCIDE),
to make plans to exterminate, as they have done also to Urartus
and Jews, faithful Ottoman citizens (CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT GENOCIDE),
to incite Armenians to armed revolt against the legal authority
and to commit Genocide, (DIRECT AND PUBLIC INCITEMENT TO COMMIT
GENOCIDE).
Serdar Argic | 5 |
3,429 |
Just out of curiosity, what else was there to do in this situation?
Wait another 51 days/weeks/months/years???
Was there anything indicating that these children and the other
people were going to get out alive?
| 5 |
2,244 | Are you pretending not knowing it? Here is why:
"Those who are not obedient to we West must be evil!".
| 5 |
4,932 |
You might as well have. You certainly would not have been in error if
you would have. | 5 |
1,746 |
Perhaps you should change your name to Clayton "Mr Logic(NOT!)" Cramer!
Please give evidence of the above statement or shut up. I believe that I
may have answered that elsewhere, amongst your other ravings.
| 5 |
6,375 | While dedicating the Holocaust Memorial Museum, President
Clinton remarked:
``The evil represented in this museum is incontestable,
but as we are its witness, so must we remain its adversary in the
world in which we live, so we must stop the fabricators of history
and the bullies as well."
Clinton made this comment shortly after giving Janet Reno
the go-ahead to hastily construct a gas chamber and crematorium
in Waco... on the fiftieth anniversary of the Warsaw uprising.
Say, wasn't Monday also the anniversary of Paul Revere's ride?
Is that a clue? | 5 |
4,178 | I must finally admit the total truth that is central to the
core of my being.
I am a homosexual. Not just a normal, run-of-the-mill
homosexual, but a rabid homosexual Zionist. I hide behind the
facade of pro-Israel rhetoric so as to deflect suspicion of my
true motive: the exchange of romantic dialogue with Nick Steel,
and our frequent fudge-packing adventures, which we have
endeavored to maintain at a discreet level. Of course, the need
for discretion has been obviated by my own admission here.
The truth is that I could no longer hold this saccharine
secret any longer. I love you, Nick, and my love for you
surpasses that which I hold for Eretz Yisrael, may she stand
forever, as our love has, and as your erection insinuating itself
into my kosher rectum always will.
| 5 |
7,458 |
That's another sad thing. I'd expect this sort of shit from the BATF.
But I'm goddamn disappointed in the FBI. They used to be professionals.
-- | 5 |
2,355 | I would like to publicly apologize to our Anisa Aldoubosh
for playing :
****
Well Anisa I am not sure that I feel the necessary remorse.
You and another Muslim lady ( Hanan Ashrawi ) seems to me to
be some attempt to charm the west into forgetting what you
are really saying.
It is not that we hate muslims but we hate certain things you
are saying every now and then. And it is depressing to ponder the
prospects for peace while those wievs are held by your people.
Not that we are better then you , we have our own prejudices
and vices in the West thank you. But your views are really
depressing . Thus I have fallen in the temptation to tease
and make a little fun instead of ....
and have problems to mobilize the necessary remorse!
Best Regards
| 5 |
1,619 |
That is the result of watching anti-Muslim 'SDPA' Nazis/crooks/idiots
too much. Still covering up the crimes of your fascist Armenian grandparents
and Nazi Armenian parents? Not a chance. As early as 1934, K. S. Papazian
asserted in 'Patriotism Perverted' that the Armenians
'lean toward Fascism and Hitlerism.'[1]
At that time, he could not have foreseen that the Armenians would
actively assume a pro-German stance and even collaborate in World
War II. His book was dealing with the Armenian genocide of the Muslim
population of Eastern Anatolia. However, extreme rightwing ideological
tendencies could be observed within the Dashnagtzoutune long before
the outbreak of the Second World War.
In 1936, for example, O. Zarmooni of the 'Tzeghagrons' was quoted
in the 'Hairenik Weekly:'
"The race is force: it is treasure. If we follow history we shall
see that races, due to their innate force, have created the nations
and these have been secure only insofar as they have reverted to
the race after becoming a nation. Today Germany and Italy are
strong because as nations they live and breath in terms of race.
On the other hand, Russia is comparatively weak because she is
bereft of social sanctities."[2]
[1] K. S. Papazian, 'Patriotism Perverted,' (Boston, Baikar Press
1934), Preface.
[2] 'Hairenik Weekly,' Friday, April 10, 1936, 'The Race is our
Refuge' by O. Zarmooni.
In April 1942, Hitler was preparing for the invasion of the Caucasus.
A number of Nazi Armenian leaders began submitting plans to German
officials in spring and summer 1942. One of them was Souren Begzadian
Paikhar, son of a former ambassador of the Armenian Republic in Baku.
Paikhar wrote a letter to Hitler, asking for German support to his
Armenian national socialist movement Hossank and suggesting the
creation of an Armenian SS formation in order
"to educate the youth of liberated Armenia according to the
spirit of the Nazi ideas."
He wanted to unite the Armenians of the already occupied territories
of the USSR in his movement and with them conquer historic Turkish
homeland. Paikhar was confined to serving the Nazis in Goebbels
Propaganda ministry as a speaker for Armenian- and French-language
radio broadcastings.[1] The Armenian-language broadcastings were
produced by yet another Nazi Armenian Viguen Chanth.[2]
[1] Patrick von zur Muhlen (Muehlen), p. 106.
[2] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, 'Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900
Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen,' (Heinz Holzberg
Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 124 and 129.
The establishment of Armenian units in the German army was favored
by General Dro (the Butcher). He played an important role in the
establishment of the Armenian 'legions' without assuming any
official position. His views were represented by his men in the
respective organs. An interesting meeting took place between Dro
and Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler toward the end of 1942.
Dro discussed matters of collaboration with Himmler and after
a long conversation, asked if he could visit POW camp close to
Berlin. Himmler provided Dro with his private car.[1]
A minor problem was that some of the Soviet nationals were not
'Aryans' but 'subhumans' according to the official Nazi philosophy.
As such, they were subject to German racism. However, Armenians
were the least threatened and indeed most privileged. In August
1933, Armenians had been recognized as Aryans by the Bureau of
Racial Investigation in the Ministry for Domestic Affairs.
[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., pp. 112-113.
Need I go on?
Serdar Argic | 5 |
3,628 |
Ditto.
Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages).
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
You have set up straw horses and knocked them down. I'm not impressed.
Let us ask Armenian scholars - shall we?
Source: K. S. Papazian, "Patriotism Perverted," Baikar Press, Boston, 1934.
pp. 17-18.
"It seems that terrorism against their own co-nationals has been a prominent
part of the revolutionary activities of the Dashnag leaders of the Caucasus.
Organized to fight the Turks, these chieftains have been more successful
in their fight against their Armenian opponents in Turkey, and the Caucasus,
very often defenseless and innocent."
p. 25.
"We were defeated".
p. 38.
"The fact remains, however, that the leaders of the Turkish Armenian section
of the Dashnagtzoutune did not carry out their promise of loyalty to the
Turkish cause when the Turks entered the war...and a call was sent for
Armenian volunteers to fight the Turks on the Caucasian front."
p. 38.
"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of
such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer
regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
1914-15-16."
By the way, here is the entire paragraph.
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as
ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work
of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village.
Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts
into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable
and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets
completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They
found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border
into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole
length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to
Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain
plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of
Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for
howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the
scattered bones of the dead."
Ohanus Appressian
"Men Are Like That"
p. 202.
Now wait, there is more.
1) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of Van.[1,2,3,4,5]
2) Armenians did slaughter 42% of Muslim population of Bitlis.[1,2,3,4]
3) Armenians did slaughter 31% of Muslim population of Erzurum.[1,2,3,4]
4) Armenians did slaughter 26% of Muslim population of Diyarbakir.[1,2,3,4]
5) Armenians did slaughter 16% of Muslim population of Mamuretulaziz.[1,2,3,4]
6) Armenians did slaughter 15% of Muslim population of Sivas.[1,2,3,4]
7) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of the x-Soviet
Armenia.[1,2,3,4]
8)....
[1] McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman
Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York
University Press, New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.
[2] Karpat, K., "Ottoman Population," The University of Wisconsin Press,
1985.
[3] Hovannisian, R. G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and
Los Angeles), 1967, pp. 13, 37.
[4] Shaw, S. J., 'On Armenian collaboration with invading Russian armies
in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey
(Volume II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of
Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)." (London, Cambridge University
Press 1977). pp. 315-316.
[5] "Gochnak" (Armenian newspaper published in the United States), May 24,
1915.
Serdar Argic | 5 |
6,653 |
this is true.
this has merit but is not entirely true.
this last statement is not true. According to the CBO the United States
has a force of about 88,000 US Army personel in Europe, I do not know
if this includes a USMC division in Norway. They have available
a little more than 500 USAF attack aircraft, including various models
of the F-111, A-10, F-19A/B, and a few F-4s. {there are about 1,000
more of these available, SAFELY TUCKED AWAY AT HOME. At one time, the
US maintained 1500 MBTs {about half were M1A1} but some of these were
relocated to the Persian Gulf. I know the US has at LEAST one
aircraft carrier battle group nearby and probably a marine assault
brigade. Does anyone know if there are any B-52/B-1Bs in England?
The point is, although there are no US ground troops in Bosnia,
it is not true that that all the american forces are safely camped
outside of St. Louis.
I also understand that the administration is planning to position
troops in Macedonia. Any reaction out there to this?
Question: day before yesterday I heard that Serbia & Montenegro
had imposed additional trade sanctions against the Bosnian Serb Rebels.
This morning a NPR reported at a bridge on the Drina (sp?) verified
that only a bread truck was allowed to pass through to Bosnia.
A Serbian {who happened to be muslim}, stated that just a few months
ago no vehicle even slowed for the boarder station. Now everyone
is stopped and searched, many are turned back. Of course all I
heard was a translators version, I do not speak Serbo-Croatian.
If this is a effort on the part of Serbia & Montenegro {for whatever reason}
to push the Boserbs into accepting the V-O, is this not a good thing? | 5 |
6,071 | ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
D"SB
Below please find an electronic copy of a leaflet put up at Warsaw U.:
DEGEL*HATORAH Jewish Circle for Arts and Sciences,
University of Warsaw, Warsaw, invites you to the lecture
*PRESENT-DAY SOCIOPOLITICAL ISSUES OF THE MIDDLE EAST*
which will be delivered by Dr Mohamed SOLIMAN,
Egypt's Ambassador to Poland.
Time & place: 4 p.m., Tuesday, 25th May, '93, (Erev Shavuot;
Dept. of Arabic & Islamic Studies, Oriental Institute
(Polish: Orientalistyka), University of Warsaw,
26/28 Krakowskie Przedmies'cie Street, PL-00-927 WARSAW, Poland.
:molahs ahetovit'n lohk'v * ma(on yehk'rad ahehkar'd
* *
############# * * * * * * * ############
############# * * * * ############
# * * #
# # * * * * #
# # * * * * * * * #
* *
*
DEGEL*HATORAH Judaistyczne Kol/o Nauk i Sztuk
przy Uniwersytecie Warszawskim w Warszawie
zaprasza na wykl/ad pt.
*AKTUALNE ZAGADNIENIA SPOL/ECZNO-POLITYCZNE BLISKIEGO WSCHODU*,
kto'ry wygl/osi Dr Mohamed SOLIMAN, Ambasador Egiptu w Polsce.
Czas i miejsce: 16:00, wtorek, 25 maja, '93, (Erev Shavuot;
Zakl/ad Arabistyki i Islamistyki, Instytut Orientalistyczny,
Uniwersytet Warszawski, 26/28 Krakowskie Przedmies'cie,
PL-00-927 WARSZAWA. | 5 |
357 |
WOW! Another Clayton wannabe. Typical response: lack of logic.
Define 'deviant': someone who deviates from the normal. Ok, so far.
Define 'normal': erm, umm. If you define yourself as normal then it is for
you to prove that you are (within limits, which then brings in the question,
what are the limits? For you we may have to broaden them to other's intolerance
;-) ) 'normal'. Difficult to prove. From what you have posted it must follow
that `normal` to you means someone without compassion and a sense of justice.
But it does look as if you went to the Clayton school of logic, doesn't it?
Again an astounding lack of logic! Wow!
You must define what you say such that everyone agrees. Here you have used
the phrase "sexual deviant". How in the hell do you define that? As someone
who does something sexually that _you_ don't? By this definition you most
probably mean the majority of the planet. How do you know that your next
door neighbour doesn't like custard to be spread over his genetalia then
have it licked off by his wife? Is this sexual deviancy? How do we know
that you don't like something sexually which others may find repulsive? Is
having sex doggy fashion a sexual deviancy? Please be more specific, and
where you do, back up your claims. Or I may have to go to hospital due to
laughing too much at yours and Clayton's postings.
Secondly, if we assume for the moment that the phrase 'sexual deviant' means
such people as homosexuals, bisexuals &c. (basically everyone you don't like),
I think that your phrase "do not comprise a `political minorit[y]`" (why the
brackets?) is a non-sequiteur. Gay groups exist which lobby their governments.
That is a fact. Prove it false. Hence they are a politial group. You
state that they are not a political minority. Are they therefore a
political majority? I think you boobed really big on this one. Try thinking
about your arguments.
Prove the first statement please. Dates, phone numbers, &c.
Again your logic fails. Again you make statements which you cannot
(and most probably will not) maintain.
You state that a person (girl, in this context) who considers equal rights
for all humans to be an airhead? As Clayton (your best mate?) would say:
it just shows how screwed up you are.
Proof please. Proof that homosexuality is not part of the natural order.
Proof that nature has always asserted itself. Are you saying that nature
is a conciousness? Are you pretending that you have the ability to see the
future? Are you god(tm)? In fact, by your arguement, are you waiting for
the black people to become slaves again? Because they were reviled as
sub-human (nb: *not* my view) at one time? Again your arguement falls
on its ass.
Touchy touchy touchy!
Right. I have shot holes in each and every one of your arguements. You are
most probably going to put me in your kill file because you have no answers
to my questions and challenges. Since you cannot support your arguments it
merely goes to show that what you write is based upon your personal prejudices,
and cannot be taken to be fact of any kind.
I await an intelligent response.....
| 5 |
831 |
As a matter of fact, I know it.
There were several shootings recently in which the guns had
been purchased at the Baltimore Gunsmith, on Broadway - a favorite
place to get cheap "popular" pieces. By "popular" I am referring to
the kinds of guns our local youth gangs like: pistol grip shotguns,
cheap magnums, and Tec-9s.
I hate to poke a hole in your bubble, but I was referring
to a specific gunstore, and specific incidents. Any other questions? | 5 |
3,009 |
But they also might have run out of fire-wood (maybe chopping up furnature?).
They also may not have been cooking, but eating MREs and other
delicacies stored for just such an occation...
Just a thought.
Brent "Yes I am well aware that their electricity was cut, thanks to the
HUNDREDS of E-mail messages and replies to my post" Irvine
| 5 |
4,457 | [... snip ...]
Can you imagine what happens when a magazine explodes? Bullets go flying every
where. IMHO, these "gunshot wounds" were actually caused when the magazines
went up. A Texas ranger does not a pathologist make, so I'll wait for an
autopsy to determine if they were shot first. | 5 |
5,161 |
I thumbed through the Janus Report in a bookstore recently looking
for a clue about their methodology. They were very unclear about
it, but as far as I could tell they relied on their professional
associates in the psychotherapy profession to provide the subjects,
interviews, and numbers. If so, this would hardly represent an
average cross-section. I posted to Usenet at the time asking for
more data about their methodology but answer came there none. (I
must have been out of my mind for even asking for factual information
on Usenet!)
This is the problem. People have to have a lot of confidence in
the anonymity of a study before they can counted on to speak
freely about stuff like that. But I agree that if someone's
going to lie it will be in the direction of a gay person claiming
to be straight rather than the other way around.
I don't see why there's any more evidence for this figure than any
other. It seems totally arbitrary.
| 5 |
897 |
The imposed it knowing that Serbia has a stockpile of weapons, and that
Bosnia will have next to nothing to defend itself. Many experts predicted
a Massacre as early as March, 1992, but the Security Coucil knew what it
was doing.
.......
....
....
...
.. | 5 |
5,450 |
The arrest of Noriega did not have any major adverse effect on the
drug trade going through Panama. Money laundering continues to be
Panama's main industry. In fact, it is bigger now than before Noriega
was arrested [1]. Panama's current administration also has ties with
the Colombian cocaine cartels [2]. And large amounts cocaine still
flow through Panama on a regular basis [3].
Oh well...
Sources (from the book _Drugs in America_ by Vincent Bugliosi):
[1] IRS Criminal Investigations Divison
[2] _New York Times_
[3] U.S. State Department
| 5 |
2,918 |
+>The paranoid assertion that the BATF fired first in an unprovoked
+>assault assumes that the BATF were on a death wish. Had they
+>expected the B-D to be anything other than peacefull citizens who
+>would accept a search authorized by a court they would have turned up
+>in a tank and broken the door down on day one.
The search was a "no-knock" warrent. Meaning that what
those on the scene see is a bunch of men with guns storming
their compound and lobbing grenades at them. The terms of the
search warrent are secret and the BATF has yet to even reveal
what they were.
+>The stupidity was the attempt to serve a warant on the place by
+>ludicrously underarmed and unprotected police.
They did not serve a warrent, they basically attacked the
compound and expected a surrender. They had semiautomatics and
concussion grenades that we KNOW about.
Look at the death and injury toll inflicted on both sides in the first
battle and its difficult to believe that either side had any
superiority in weapons.
| 5 |
699 |
A great deal of documentation exists on exactly that phenomenon. Especially
regarding Vietnam and the Mai Lai (sp?) massacre
Not that I'm suggesting that they started it on purpose but even if they
now know that they accidentally started (or contributed to it) you can
be sure the initial reaction is to lie. Remember the Iranian airliner
which the US navy mistook for a fighter and shot down? | 5 |
3,399 | deleted | 5 |
1,882 | Would you like fries with that, sir?
| 5 |
2,724 |
If you have something reasoned and intelligent to say then you should
post. If all you can do is rant and rave- save it.
True conservatism is cutting spending and taxes. It's a matter of
debate just how succesful the last few presidents have been at that.
I hear it again and again, and I've noticed far more often from
liberals than anyone else- "if you don't agree with me you are close-minded"
Look who's talking. I suggest you take a look at your post. I see
nothing but unfair and unsubstantiated generalizations. It suggests that the
author is anything but open-minded.
Next time you feel like posting something like this- save it for
somebody who cares.
| 5 |
3,844 | This is an outrage! I don't even own a dog.
| 5 |
6,857 | Janet Reno killed the Waco children. She is responsible for
their deaths. She should resign immediately. She should have
understood that David Koresh was a madman who would do anything
against the children if he became provoked. All the warning
signs were there and she ignored them. She provoked Koresh
into killing the children.
The situation in Waco was similar to a hostage situation with
a madman holding a gun against the head of an innocent person.
In such a situation, a person who provokes the madman and causes
him to pull the gun's trigger is responsible for the death of the
hostage. Janet Reno blindly stumbled in there and basically
threw a tear gas container at the madman hoping that he would
release the hostage. It's no surprise that the madman would
pull the trigger in response to that kind of provocation.
| 5 |
6,671 | If you think that kind of uncalled for blanket statement will
cause censorship at Mr. Jefferson's university you are wrong.
| 5 |
5,235 |
Is this an arguement against or for? Or simply a statement of agreeance/
disagreeance. The fact that there are more homosexuals in prison does not
mean that homosexuals are immoral and more liable to commit crime. And one
must remember that prison is not necessarily a reflection of the type of
people who are criminals. What are the statistics for unsolved crime?
| 5 |
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