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7,110 | Elias Davidsson writes...
ED> dear pete,
ED>
ED> for one who is so zionist as you, you should at least know your
ED> hebrew, young man.
ED>
ED> The last sentence in your posting should read:
ED>
ED> Medina achat leshnai amim (not Echad medionnot leshtai amim).
ED>
ED> I don't want to address your comments. They speak for themselves.
ED>
ED> best regards from a Palestinian of Jewish origin who talks, reads and writes
ED> Hebrew and does not hate Jews nor anybody else.
ED>
ED> Elias
The above claim that you do not hate anybody may not be quite
true. The falsity of this statement is easily visible in the
intellectual corruption that dominates everything you post in
this group. Your complete lack of objectivity toward Israel,
and Jewish identity in general, reveal biases that indicate a
great steaming heap of hatred!
You certainly have shown a genuine hatred for honesty and for
objectivity. You repeatedly post items or quotes removed from
their original context so that they can be used to further an
agenda of rabid opposition to the very existence of Israel.
You have used this dishonest technique to paint a false image
of several Israeli leaders. I can't say if you actually HATE
these leaders, but the lies and misrepresentations of them do
suggest that you have a visceral prejudice against them.
So, while you claim that you do not hate anybody, there is an
ample body of evidence to suggest that this claim of yours is
false. It is obvious that you hate Israel, and it is evident
that you hate the Jewish people.
And, if you are Jewish, you are a self-hating Jew. There can
be no doubt of this. Although you will call upon your Jewish
background in an effort to claim the high moral ground, there
is no doubt that you would like to see the Jewish people fade
away completely, as a people. Your advocacy of intermarriage
for the purpose of dissolving the Jewish people is proof that
you hate the Jewish people.
And by your effort to superimpose the meaninglessness of your
own Jewishness on all Jews, you've clearly demonstrated to me
that you hate yourself.
* * * *
"Who is a Jew? A person whose integrity decays when unmoved
by the knowledge of wrong done to other people." | 5 |
1,675 |
Of course, then there's the other side. An article in yesterday's Atlanta
Journal stated that there are many scientists who have misgivings that the
data being used to determine whether or not global warming is occuring is
faulty. The point that the article made is that all long term temperature
dataa collected has been in urban areas, and that any heat rise can be
attributed to the growth and urbanization of the area. They called it
the "asphalt temperature trend". We have no real long term data on remote
areas, such as the middle of the Amazon rain forest, or the top of Mt. Everest
or the Gobi desert, for that matter. An accompanying article mentioned that
a group of scientists at NASA had developed a method for using a satellite
to collect temperature data globally, and that preliminary results showed
a slight downward trend attributed to the Mt Pinatubo eruption. It went
on to say that even with the current downward trend, there appeared to be
*NO* change in global temperatures using trend prediction methods for at
least the next 50 years.
I can quote the article verbatim if you like.. | 5 |
2,034 | 5 | |
4,619 |
I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but since the majority
of the contributors (and may be even readers) of this newsgroup seem
to be muslims, christians and jews, my question could be of some
interest to any of them.
It's my impression that both Islam and Christianity pay great
respect to an obscure 1st century jewish lad from Judea/Galilee. Why
they chose this particular jew among all possible jews is a mystery
to me (personally, I prefer Woody Allen - his stories are much juicier)
- but perhaps it's an accident of history.
Anyway, it seems that they may be talking about two different
jews. According to the New Testament his father's name was Joseph,
while in Qur'an he appears as Zachariah.
Who's right and why the name difference? I'm really curious.
David.
| 5 |
4,007 |
Yeah, just like you shouldn't assume that Aryan Nations supports
genocide. Who are they (and you) fooling? | 5 |
5,585 | russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) writes...
It's fairly simple. It was decided to burn the place down,
and more than one agent was dispatched to set the fires in
separate parts of the compound. I doubt that "simultaneously"
means "at the exact same time" in this case. It likely means
"close enough together to preclude them from being part of
the same fire."
They might be waiting until the evidence comes in from the
site, and the investigation is at least well underway.
The same could be said of Jonestown.
Maybe. Then again, I've been suprised at what folks have missed
in the past in similar situations. Don't jump t oconclusions.
_____ _____
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Mitchell S Todd \\\\/ / _____/__________________________
________________ \\/ / mst4298@zeus._____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_'_/
\_____ \__ / / tamu.edu _____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_/
\__________\__ / / _____/_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_/
\_ / /__________/
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4,868 | Joachim Martillo writes
If you were to substitute the word "Jew"/"Jewish" in this posting where you
see the word "Muslim"/"Islamic", switch Joachim and Mohammed's names around,
and then repost this, you would get a flood of messages attacking the author
as an anti-semite. And rightly so. The author of this crap is a racist, pure
and simple. He obviously has no qualms about being open with it, either,
unlike some other Arab- and Mulsim-bashers on the Net.
Now, I for one, am not going to look at Joachim's posting and infer from it
that all Jews think this way. Sure, there might be some, but this view is not
a part of Judaism, and it is stupid to believe that all Jews' minds are this
twisted. However, some Muslims might look at Joachim's flame as a
reaffirmation of their worst fears about Jews: that they all hate Arabs and
are racists.
For this reason, I am alarmed that not more Jews on the Net have spoken out
against what Joachim has said. They have the chance to possibly change the
anti-semitic views of some people on the net, to show them that all Jews do
*not* hate all Arabs and Muslims, just like all Muslims do *not* hate all
Jews. Yet they are missing that chance. Remember, to many people, silence
implies consent.
Peace.
-- | 5 |
2,813 |
This does not change the *fact* that "Muslim" is a legal and political
term defined constitutionally in former Yugoslavia, and therefore has
meaning and consequences entirely *independent* and *immaterial* of
any religious considerations.
You only wish it were so.
More than 2,000,000 residents of Croatia and B-H have *not* accepted the
terms of secession which Tudjman and Izetbegovic unilaterally forced upon
them. Croats and Muslims may have a right to negotiated secession but
they do not have a right to grab the *entire* territories of the former
Yugoslav republics of Croatia and B-H.
Oh, BTW, *Yugoslavia* was *internationally recognized* when it was
destroyed by Tudjman, Izetbegovic, Milosevic, and the international
community led by Germany. If Yugoslavia's borders could be changed
against its will, then certainly Croatia's borders and B-H's borders
can be changed as well.
As I have stated many times: the civil war in ex-Yugoslavia will end
when the terms of secession (borders, etc.) for Croatia and B-H are
finally agreed upon. Serbs, Croats, and Muslims will *all* have to
make territorial concessions to reach such an agreement. | 5 |
7,293 |
He's 1/2 liar, 1/2 cheat and 1/2 demagogue. | 5 |
6,849 | THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
_____________________________________________________________________
For Immediate Release April 20, 1993
PRESS BRIEFING
BY DEE DEE MYERS
The Briefing Room
9:47 A.M. EDT
MS. MYERS: Okay, today's schedule. As you know, the
President jogged this morning with Senator Wofford.
At 1:15 p.m., he will have a photo opportunity in the
Rose Garden to present the Teacher of the Year Award. At 1:30 p.m.,
he will meet with his principal advisors on Bosnia. And at 5:00
p.m., he'll meet with President Vaclav Havel. There will be a photo
op at the top of that meeting; no formal press conference afterwards.
Any questions?
Q Is he moving towards some major decision this week
on Bosnia?
MS. MYERS: As we've said, he's continuing to discuss
his options. He's been talking extensively with his foreign policy
advisors, his Bosnia advisors, as well as with other world leaders.
He'll try to contact President Mitterrand again today, and he'll
continue to discuss it. We don't have any specific timetable, but
obviously the situation there is very serious.
Q Has he called Janet Reno today or yesterday?
MS. MYERS: I don't believe he's spoken to her today.
Q Why does he have nothing to say about this publicly
except on the piece of paper that was put out last night at 6:40
p.m.?
MS. MYERS: He did. He answered a question about it
yesterday.
Q Before anything had happened.
MS. MYERS: Before anything happened. He put out --
Q Since something has happened he's had nothing to
say.
MS. MYERS: He's put out a statement on it last night.
And we'll have more to say about it later today.
Q In what forum is that going to be?
MS. MYERS: It will be at the photo in the Rose Garden.
Q He will talk about Waco at that?
MS. MYERS: Yes, he'll have something to say.
Q Is that something we can take live?
MS. MYERS: I think it will be brief. We can talk a
little later about the exact structure as we work it out. But I
don't know if it's something you'd want to take live.
Q Will he take questions on Waco at that time as
well?
MS. MYERS: He'll probably take a few.
Q Is there any reason why he hasn't talked to the
Attorney General?
MS. MYERS: I'll have to double-check. I don't know
that he hasn't talked to her this morning.
Q And she didn't come here this morning to see him or
anyone else?
MS. MYERS: No.
Q And he didn't talk yesterday?
Q What's the reaction to her resignation statement
that she made last night?
MS. MYERS: She was asked a question about it, and she
answered the question. The President has absolutely no intention of
asking for the Attorney General's resignation. He stands behind her
100 percent. As you know, he was informed about the decision. He
takes full responsibility for that, and stands 100 percent behind
Attorney General Reno.
Q The question now arises -- yesterday we were told
that he was briefed on this, but we never got a firm idea of how much
he knew of what the plan was and the justification for the plan and
the justification of the timing. Was he fully informed on all of
that, all of this about the increasing levels of violence inside the
compound that made them want to go now, the feeling that nothing else
was going to succeed, et cetera?
MS. MYERS: He talked with the Attorney General about
the decision, about -- she talked to him about the factors that led
to her decision. He raised no objections. He supports her decision
to go forward with it. He was fully briefed.
Q Of course, hindsight is 20-20, but looking back
now, does the President, does the White House feel that the decision
he signed off on proved to be the right way to go when you look at
what actually happened?
MS. MYERS: I think everybody feels bad when life is
lost. But I don't think that that is reason to second-guess the
decision. He stands behind the decision that was made. He was
informed about it. He was fully briefed about it and he stands 100
percent behind the Attorney General, the Justice Department and the
FBI. It's a difficult operation and there's -- it had already gone
on for more than seven weeks. Four federal agents had lost their
lives in the line of duty -- let's not forget that.
This was a very difficult situation and all the
decisions involved were very difficult. But all the agents on the
ground, the FBI, the Justice Department all recommended moving
forward with this. They thought, given the circumstances, it was the
best possible course of action. There's just no point in second-
guessing those decisions. Now, I think that there's a reason --
Q Why not? They have to --
MS. MYERS: No, not to second-guess the decisions. I
think it's important to take a look at it, to have an investigation.
I think the President will talk some about that later today. But at
this -- from this vantage point, to second-guess those decisions,
it's not useful.
Q You sound like he's going to order an investigation
of what happened and whether --
MS. MYERS: I think he'll have more to say about that
later, yes.
Q He will order an investigation?
MS. MYERS: He'll have more -- yes -- he'll have more to
say about an investigation.
Q What kind of investigation?
MS. MYERS: He'll have more to say about it later.
Q But in the Monday morning quarterbacking, surely
there is some soul-searching now as to whether it was the right
decision. You can't say that we did the best we could when it turned
out to be a rather -- a debacle.
MS. MYERS: I think we'll -- obviously, we'll review
the situation and all the factors that lead to a very tragic outcome.
I don't think anybody disputes that the outcome was tragic. But,
again, the President stands behind the decisions that were made and
we'll take a look at the factors that contributed to that.
Q What was the FBI Director's role in this?
MS. MYERS: Well, he was obviously involved in setting
up the operation. He signed off on it, as did the agents that were
on the ground that were working with him. I don't believe he spoke
to the President, but I'll double-check that.
Q But he was very closely involved in every aspect of
planning and so forth?
MS. MYERS: I would refer you to the FBI on exactly what
aspects he was involved with.
Q Will Janet Reno be coming over to the White House
today?
MS. MYERS: There's no planned meeting. I don't believe
that she'll be here.
Q She won't be at this event at 1:15 p.m.?
MS. MYERS: No, no plans to be.
Q Do you think that there's going to be a jumping on
on the part of political opposition to make something out of this in
terms of -- to the President's detriment politically?
MS. MYERS: Well, I would certainly hope that people
wouldn't try to use this tragedy for political reasons. Obviously, I
think, again, that it's useful to look at the facts, to reevaluate
the facts, and I think the President will move forward with that.
But I think people understand that this was a difficult series of
decisions; that it was a very difficult situation; that it was caused
by a man who was a cult leader who was involved in the death of four
federal agents. And I think it's most tragic that a lot of innocent
children lost their lives in this. I don't think anybody disputes
the tragedy of the outcome.
Q Dee Dee, what was the White House role in handling
the, I guess, public relations aspect in the aftermath? Who was
talking -- who here at the White House was talking with people at
Justice to set up Reno's news conference, to do all that sort of
thing?
MS. MYERS: I think the Attorney General handled her end
of the situation herself and made the decision to go ahead with the
news conference once there was a point at which there was enough
information, I think, to talk with some accuracy about what had
transpired during the day. Obviously, people here at a number of
levels were keeping in touch with people at the Justice Department
and at the FBI to try to keep informed about what was happening
there.
Q But Reno said that she didn't talk to the
President, and there seemed to be an indication she hadn't talked to
anybody at the White House. So who --
MS. MYERS: There were people talking on a staff-to-
staff level.
Q I understand. But who at the Justice Department
was handling that for Reno? Who was talking to the White House?
MS. MYERS: There were a number of people. As you know,
Webb Hubbell is the liaison to the White House, and I know he talked
to a number of people here. There were a number of people at a
number of different levels involved. I don't want to get into
exactly who had what conversations with whom, but there were a number
of conversations. Obviously, the Justice Department was working to
keep the White House informed, the press informed to the best of its
ability as events unfolded throughout the day.
Q Did Webb Hubbell talk to the President?
MS. MYERS: I don't believe so. I don't know if he
talked -- he may have at one point.
Q And was the White House role just to seek
information about what happened, or was it to direct the public
information campaign that followed?
MS. MYERS: It was both to keep abreast of the situation
so the President could be on top of it, but I think the Justice
Department managed its press relations on it. We were obviously very
interested in what was happening there throughout the day, and the
President was following it very closely throughout the day.
Q Dee Dee, on that, though, if the President was
following it so closely and he had talked the night before with Janet
Reno, why wouldn't he talk to her at all since then?
MS. MYERS: Again, I don't know if he's talked to her
this morning. Again, he's kept fully aware of what has been going on
throughout the day. He stands 100 percent behind her decisions.
He's been fully supportive of her, as he said yesterday morning
before events transpired and yesterday afternoon in a written
statement.
Q But wouldn't he want to convey those thoughts to
her personally yesterday?
MS. MYERS: One more time, I don't know if they've
spoken this morning.
Q No, yesterday.
Q Clearly there's a perception that she was left hung
out to dry all day yesterday.
MS. MYERS: That's just not true. I think we said
throughout the day that the President takes full responsibility, that
he stands -- I don't know how much clearer we can be. The President
stands foursquare behind the Attorney General on this. He accepts
full responsibility for the events that transpired. He believes that
Janet Reno, the Justice Department, and the FBI acted as best they
could, given the circumstances and the facts that were evident at the
time. I don't know what else he can say to show that he supports her
1,000 percent.
Q One of the best indications of that is to pick up
the phone and tell her.
MS. MYERS: Again, I don't know whether they've spoken
this morning.
Q Why can't we find out?
MS. MYERS: Well, we can. I can't do it standing here
right now.
Q You've got six people here. All they've got to do
is pick up the phone.
MS. MYERS: Helen, we'll get back to you.
Q Dee Dee, when the President spoke with the Attorney
General on Sunday, is it safe to assume that either she volunteered
or he inquired about whether there was a possible downside to
increasing pressure on the Davidians?
MS. MYERS: I think that they discussed the situation.
Again, I'm not going to get into the specific details of what exactly
she told him, but I think that he was aware of the risks involved.
Q Dee Dee, the President yesterday morning said it
was entirely her decision. She then said that she told him what was
happening and he said, okay. Does the President regard it that he
gave the go-ahead or that she gave the go-ahead?
MS. MYERS: I think what they both said yesterday was
that she made a decision based on all the available facts. She
informed him about that and he raised no objections. Again, I don't
know how much clearer we can be about that.
Q And he said, okay. The issue is over the
responsibility.
MS. MYERS: He said, okay.
Q Does okay mean --
MS. MYERS: The President accepts ultimate
responsibility.
Q Dee Dee, the President's investigation that he's
going to announce -- would that be conducted by someone outside the
administration?
MS. MYERS: No.
Q It would be internal -- is it meant to preclude any
congressional investigation?
MS. MYERS: No, it's meant simply to follow up on the
incidents that occurred yesterday.
Q And you would, I assume, therefore, cooperate fully
with any congressional hearings that would be held?
MS. MYERS: To the best of our ability.
Q Dee Dee, there are two reports out this morning.
One that the Justice Department, or FBI, or whomever, apparently had
a bug planted inside the complex. And the other is that the children
may have been injected with some kind of poison that may have either
left them unconscious or maybe even killed them before the fire.
What do you know about those two --
MS. MYERS: Nothing more than I've seen in news accounts
this morning. We may get more on it later, but at this point, I know
-- I'm not sure anybody knows any more than what was reported by
people who came out of the compound.
Q Has the President received any report today in
terms of fatalities and actually what was going on -- what they've
been able to find out on in the compound now?
MS. MYERS: He's been briefed. I don't think that
they've gotten into the compound yet. They were still waiting for it
to cool off. I don't think there's much beyond what's been reported
in the news accounts. But he has been kept up-to-date on it.
Q Dee Dee, the President stands behind Attorney
General Reno, but does he feel that she perhaps got bad advice from
the so-called experts?
MS. MYERS: He believes that she made -- he stands
behind the decision that she made. It was the unanimous decision of
her advisors, of the FBI, of the agents on the ground, and he
supports that.
Q What about the validity of the decisions made on
the ground? Does he back those --
MS. MYERS: He's not going to second-guess decisions
made.
Q Dee Dee, you just said, he stands behind the
decision which she made. Normally, in a situation like this, the
President says, I made the decision. But you're saying she made the
decision?
MS. MYERS: I'm saying that the President was briefed
about the decision. He okayed it and he accepts full responsibility
for it.
Q But then why do you keep using the terminology, the
decision that she made, rather than the decision that he made --
MS. MYERS: Because, as he said yesterday, she evaluated
the facts based on evidence presented to her by Justice Department
and FBI, which is part of the Justice Department, and made a decision
and then briefed the President on that decision. That is how the
chain of command works. She briefed him. He signed off on it. The
operation went forward, and the President accepts full
responsibility.
Q In that chain of command analogy there, I want to
go back to Sessions a moment. Do you know if this was a plan that
came through him to Reno, or was it presented to her around him or
with his involvement? What was his involvement?
MS. MYERS: Again, you'd have to go to the Justice
Department for the specific interaction between the Attorney General
and the Director.
Q Does the President stand behind Director Sessions?
MS. MYERS: He supports -- again, I don't know how many
different ways I can say this -- he supports the decisions made by
the Justice Department and the FBI. He fully supports the Attorney
General in this. I'm not stepping away from the Director of the FBI,
I want to -- but Janet Reno is the one who briefed him, the one who
made the decisions as the head of the Justice Department. As you
know, the Director of the FBI reports to the Attorney General. The
Attorney General made the decision. She informed the President about
those decisions. He okayed it. He didn't raise any objections to
it, and he accepts full responsibility.
Q Do you have, based on what you know here at the
White House, any concerns about William Sessions' performance during
this --
MS. MYERS: Nothing to suggest that, no.
Q Along those same lines, just in your initial review
of the situation, how much do you think the problems might have come
from not having a Justice Department that's fully staffed and having
an FBI Director who is still quite uncertain about his status?
MS. MYERS: I just don't think that had anything to do
with it. I think the agents on the ground -- the operation went
forward. I'm not going to speculate on that.
Q Did the White House express any alarm that Janet
Reno chose to speak to the live network media before she chose to
speak to Clinton?
MS. MYERS: No. She was carrying forward her
responsibility to inform the public about the events of yesterday. I
think she did a very admirable job. The President agrees with that.
Q Before Sunday, how often was the President briefed
on the situation in Waco?
MS. MYERS: He was kept updated on a regular basis, on a
daily basis.
Q Who briefed the President?
MS. MYERS: Well, I'm not going to get into exactly who,
what conversations he had with whom, but he was kept up-to-date on
the events in Waco. He has daily briefings on a number of issues.
Q No, no, was this a regular briefing conducted by a
White House staff person, or was it by a Justice Department person?
MS. MYERS: He's briefed regularly by a White House
staff on a number of issues. Again, I'm not going to get into
exactly who briefs him on what subjects.
Q Another subject?
Q On another subject.
Q Now we're going to do gays in the military.
(Laughter.)
MS. MYERS: I welcome it.
Q How close are you to signing the biodiversity
treaty?
MS. MYERS: As you know, the President's giving a speech
on Earth Day tomorrow. We'll have more to say about it then.
Q Any details on where or when that speech is yet?
MS. MYERS: It's at 11:30 a.m. and I don't know where
yet.
Q Dee Dee, is this a major policy address? How would
you characterize the speech tomorrow?
MS. MYERS: I would characterize it as a Earth Day
speech. I wouldn't look for any major departures from his past
positions on these things. But, again, I don't want to get too much
into what he's going to talk about tomorrow.
Q On or off campus?
Q Is this at a location outside the White House?
MS. MYERS: It will be somewhere in Washington. We
don't know exactly where yet.
Q Dee Dee, what foreign leaders has the President
talked to since Friday on the situation in Bosnia?
MS. MYERS: Only Prime Minister Major. And again, he'll
try to reach President Mitterrand again this morning.
Q David Owen said yesterday and Joe Biden said today
-- both of them agree that the peace process is not going to work,
that the Serbs are not going to sign on. Does the administration
still believe that it can work and that they will sign on?
MS. MYERS: Obviously, the ultimate goal is some sort of
peaceful resolution to the conflict in Bosnia. As you know, the
administration is considering a wide variety of options at this
point. The situation there in and around Srebrenica and the rest of
Eastern Bosnia is quite serious. And the President will meet with
his Bosnian advisors today and continue to press forward on this.
Q Is that a question they're going to try to be
deciding whether or not the peace plan remains viable?
MS. MYERS: Again, they'll be reviewing a number of
options, including the peace plan.
Q Does the group that he's meeting with today include
Reg Bartholomew?
MS. MYERS: I don't believe he's here. But it will be
among the usual -- Secretary Christopher, Secretary Aspin, General
Powell.
Q Dee Dee, do you have anything on the apparent
encounter by U.S. F-15s over Bosnia today -- some aircraft violating
the no-fly zone?
MS. MYERS: No, I don't. I'll get back to you on that.
Q Will the President be meeting with every one of the
leaders coming to town for the Holocaust Museum?
MS. MYERS: He will. He'll be meeting, as you know,
with Vaclav Havel today and with Lech Walesa tomorrow, and then with
the rest of the group tomorrow afternoon.
Q As a group, or one by one?
MS. MYERS: I believe it's as a group. Now, Havel and
Walesa asked for meetings early and these have been on the agenda for
quite some time. But he will meet with all of the foreign heads of
state that are here.
Q Dee Dee, has the President decided whether he
supports the gay and lesbian civil rights act? And has anything been
worked out for him to address the march on Sunday?
MS. MYERS: I think he'll probably have a letter or some
kind of a statement to the march. We haven't worked out the exact
details of that.
Q Not a live phone hook-up?
MS. MYERS: Probably not, given the logistics of getting
to Boston. The speech, as you know, is at 4:00 p.m. The answer to
the other part of your question is, no, he hasn't taken a position on
it.
Q You said that speech in Boston was at 4:00 p.m.?
MS. MYERS: I believe so, yes.
Q Do you know what it's on?
MS. MYERS: We'll still working out --
Q General Vessey's coming back tonight from Vietnam.
When will he be meeting with the President?
MS. MYERS: No specific meeting is scheduled. We'll
talk to him at some point and see. We look forward to his report,
but exactly how he'll make that report is unclear.
Q So he's not going to come immediately to the White
House?
MS. MYERS: No.
Q The AIDS czar -- how close are you?
MS. MYERS: Still working on it.
Q Drug czar?
Q Do you expect it before the march?
MS. MYERS: I don't have a time line on it.
Q Did the President ask Senator Mitchell to try the
Lloyd Cutler ploy to break the filibuster?
MS. MYERS: I don't believe so.
Q Why not?
MS. MYERS: He's just not going to.
Q Are Senate Democrats here at this hour?
MS. MYERS: No, that's tomorrow -- tomorrow at 9:30 a.m.
Q Update on the stimulus, possible scaling down --
MS. MYERS: As you know, the Senate will vote on
amendments today. We'll continue to talk. The President is
committed to some kind of a jobs package; we'd like to see it passed.
And we'll continue in conversations throughout the day and see where
we end up.
Q When this briefing is over can you give us word
through the speaker or whatever whether the President's talked to
Janet Reno?
MS. MYERS: We'll be happy to.
Q It's become a pressing question for the last
several hours.
MS. MYERS: No, just this minute that I've been here,
and I haven't had a chance to follow up on it, Helen.
Q Does he have an opinion on Hatfield?
MS. MYERS: I mean, obviously, he prefers -- he offered
a compromise package of $12.2 billion. He believes that that's the
best alternative, believes that he's obviously willing to take a
second look at the package. And I think the Senate will vote on that
today, and we're hopeful that the President's bill, which will be the
Mitchell amendment, will be the one that will be approved.
Q Dee Dee, is there any White House official that
will be at the march on Sunday?
MS. MYERS: Somebody will be there representing the
President. I don't know who yet.
Q Well, has it been decided how he's going to
address? Is it going to be a videotape or a phone call?
MS. MYERS: I think it will probably be a letter, but
there hasn't been a final decision on that yet.
Q The official will read the letter, is that what it
sounds like?
MS. MYERS: Correct.
Q Lloyd Bentsen came in here this morning. Do you
know what was that about? Was that about this Waco thing?
MS. MYERS: No, actually it wasn't. It may have come
up, but it was about economic issues.
Q On health care -- is the 17th of May still the
target?
MS. MYERS: That's still the target.
Q And there's talk about a Joint Session of Congress
speech at the end of May --
MS. MYERS: We haven't resolved exactly how the
President will present the health care plan to the people. I
wouldn't rule that out as an option, but no decisions have been made. | 5 |
6,034 |
Isn't it ironic. I'm of that generation, and I remember the lesson. I
cry to see all the postings from domestic .edu sites that have naively
swallowed everything the government has seen fit to feed to them.
Especially contrasted to such a post from the .uk yet.
I suspect we saw the latter. However, the injustice implied in letting
those involved escape without investigation and/or prosecution is also
horrible to contemplate.
-- | 5 |
3,504 | It seems that Egypt is only interested in fighting wars against its own
people, while objecting to any steps for Bosnia.. I am not surprised,
WHo said that Mubarak represents Egypt (Hell he does not even represent
all the criminals of Egypt)
....
Thanks Saudia for the pocket change.
Compare that to the "Liberation of Q8" and to what they gave to some
weird causes.. O.K at least they are paying.
Mr. Amr Moussa was not worried about International law when he tortured
to death many of his citizens and when he shot people praying in a Mosque,
or when he is causing trouble to his neighbor just becasue the CIA says so.
Why doesn't he just shut up, he won't be involved in any Bosnian effort
anyway, or does the west have to be represented even in an Islamic conference?
The more I hear about the Egyptian regime, the more I understand the
existence of the "Jamaa Islamiyah" there. After all most of its members
and leaders are former and current victims of government torture, injustice,
or relatives of victims. In some other places they get psychiatric care AND
revenge in the COURTS. But all they got is more of the same resulting in a
cycle of madness that is initiated by the government with the illicit support
of the west who is more concerned about the safety of half naked tourists in
conservative neighborhoods than the dignity, social justice, and safety of the
majority of the poor oppressed people of Egypt. Enough said. | 5 |
6,024 |
As I said, I do not want to convice anyone, so, why should my opinions
convince anyone?
I do not believe that my opinions are refuted by facts.
Maybe youy view of a dictionary is the problem here. One thing is the
accepted meaning of a word by a dictionary, and sometimes a completely
different thing is what that word came to mean after a long time.
OK. Tell me how many people in Zionist movements define a Jew in a
different way, and how many are who define Jew based on a religious way.
You need to start reading before answering.
My point was that because some movement claims to be nationalistic, it
does not mean that I consider it to be nationalistic. I did not comapre
Israel to the IRA. I think that you are starting to put words on my
mouth and that is wrong.
I never said that Zionism is monolithic. If you are going to attribute
me things, present the quotes where I said that.
That is your problem. I could certainly interpret this like you are
running out of arguments. First, you put words in my mouth, now, you
say you do ot believe me.
Why don't you try reading for a change? Did I say that the Law of Return
demand a person to be religious? Now, how does the Law of Return define
who is a Jew and who is not? I said that it uses a religious standard:
If your mother is a Jew, you are a Jew, if your mother is not Jewish,
neither you are.
Do not twist my words, please.
I am not talking about the debate. I am talking about how things are right
now. When the debate is over, I'll see what happens.
Right now, things are like they are.
Let me ask you one thing. I understand that Israel differenciates between
Citizenship and Nationality. Suppose M(ale) and F(emale) have a child in
Israel. Which nationality will the child's ID show, according to each one
of the following cases:
a) F and M are both Jewish.
b) F is Jewsh and M is not.
c) F is Muslim and M is jewish.
d) F is Christian and M is Jewish.
e) F and M are both non-Jewish.
It called history. At some point it was OK. Now, I believe, it is not.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^
Interesting. How do you know? Had I ever talked to you about this and
forgotten about that?
Which definition are you now talking here about?
I do not know why you are so touchy. I never said that you did not support
Palestinian self-determination. I just gave an example of hypocrisy. I never
said that someone in this net is guilty of it. It was just an example. Nothing
more, nothing less than that. Why did you have to clarify what you think?
Here you have several problems.
First, you should know that words have more meanings than those given in
the dictionary.
Second, it may come to be a shock for you to know that there are more
words than those in the dictionary.
Third, we can exchange ideas if you want, but you come out with this nonsense
about being believable = using the definitions given in a dictionary.
It seems that you cannot answer to the ideas given by others without insulting
others. Sad.
If you did not put words in my mouth, it might be that you might
start reading what I had actually said. So far, you come over and over
twisting what I said or presenting things I never said as if I had said
them. In this way, you are answering to yourself. That is why you do not
find it believable. Maybe, if you start reading what I had actually said,
and not what you added, you might change your mind.
First, there is nothing resembling a fact in what you added to what I said,
as if I had said it.
Seconf, anyone else is supposed to mean "than I do"?
| 5 |
7,358 |
So could the defenders in the Alamo. You're clearly missing the
point here. Typically, I might add.
If it were me, I doubt that *I* would have come out.
BATF show up, start shooting at me, etc. Then they paint me
a child-molesting murdering fanatic, call up TANKS, hundreds
of automatic-armed goons. Restrict press access to two miles
away. | 5 |
526 |
I want to subscribe, I am located in Israel and my name is David Gotlieb
| 5 |
7,421 |
You have perhaps heard of the Dead Sea. I may be wrong, but I believe
it is not misnamed. And I don't believe that humans had a hand in it,
although it is possible since the great cedar forests of Lebanon were
but a memory by the time of Christ if not earlier.
But, more on the point, while Nature is the may be the more prolific
"despoiler", Man is certainly the more creative. We have to our
credit pesticides and heavy metals, not to mention radioactivity,
which is so wonderfully persistent and fatal (not that we invented
radioactivity or heavy metals, we only concentrated them so that they
would be a more lethal threat).
In general I find Mr. Bacon's arguments rhetorical, devoid of sense,
and therefore trivial.
BTW, is there any reason this discussion is on phl.misc? | 5 |
2,746 |
Proof that the entire private sector is vastly more inefficient?
Blue Cross is the government health insurance provider.
Oops.
[Ads for Z magazine deleted to Save the Earth] | 5 |
571 |
No wonder you clown are in such a mess. Let's take Sarkis Atamian's (an
Armenian Dashnak sociolog) book, "The Armenian Community", pages 97 and
105. Atamian quotes:
"... the immediate question concerned itself with the organization and
tactics of revolution. The liberation of Armenia, the immediate aim of
the Party, was to be attained by:
1. Oral and written propaganda.
2. Terrorism - both as punishment against the enemy and as a measure
of self defense.
3. The creation of an avant-garde of revolutionary groups to be
equipped and prepared for action when other nations were prepared
for a general uprising.
4. The organization of larger committees to be in constant contact with
each other and subject to a central body.
5. Organization of units of guerilla fighters."
Now, on page 105, Atamian's book quotes of Armenian constitution:
"... If the means was revolution, how was the revolution to be attained?
By:
1. Propaganda
2. Preparation of combat units and their indoctrination
3. Encouragement of the revolutionary morale of the people
4. The arming of the people
5. Organization of revolutionary committees
6. Espionage throughout the country and the exchange of information with
the official bodies and journals
7. Organization of financial zones for public collection
8. 'Fighting and using' the weapon of the terror on corrupt government
officers, spies, traitors, grafters, and all sorts of oppressors
9. Defense of the people against attacks from the brigandry
10. Building of roads for the transport of arms
11. Wrecking and looting of governmental institutions."
Many of the recent Armenian terrorist acts against the Turkish people
were committed by the brainwashed members of the "Tzeghagron", namely,
"race-worshipers" of the Dashnag Youth Organization. Ironically, again,
Tzeghagron was set up by an undisputed Armenian Nazi, Karekin Nejdeh,
in 1941 (see Atamian, loc cit, page 389).
Serdar Argic | 5 |
1,318 |
That "Federal land" and tax money could have been
used to commerate Americans or better yet, to house
homeless Americans.
jim@specialix.com (Jim Maurer) responds:
Why don't you contribute to a group helping the
homeless if you so concerned?
Jack Schmidling (arf@genesis.MCS.COM) reveals the true depths
of his cynicism:
I do (did) contribute to the ARF mortgage fund but
when interest rates plumetted, I just paid it off.
The problem is, I couldn't convince Congress to move
my home to a nicer location on Federal land.
In other words, Mr. Schmidling could care less for the plight
of the homeless, but is not above using them to score points
for his agenda. | 5 |
1,768 | (Please note followup)
In <1993Apr27.012045.8543@Virginia.EDU> ab4z@Virginia.EDU ("Andi
Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is name-calling of the lowest kind.
Please don't be disingenuous.
Do civil libertarians make no distinction between the Nazis and
Israel? Would you say that the Iraqis are like the Nazis?
If you do not make such distinctions, then all injustices are
equally evil, and the world is a completely evil place. In that
case, we may as well give up right now.
| 5 |
5,956 | In <1993Apr19.221331.26203@pony.Ingres.COM>, garrett@Ingres.COM sez:
[re Michael Friedman and Phil Ronzone]
Try asking Michael whether he still thinks the M-16 "is one of the
most beautiful machines around." Or ask Phil if he still claims that
the Due Process and Equal Protection clauses of the 14th amendment
apply to the federal government. The responses should be as
enlightening as the recent name-calling, and about as relevant.
--
They told me you had gone totally insane, and that your methods were unsound. | 5 |
5,809 | : # #The median number of sexual partners for all men 20-39 was 7.3.
: # Don't forget that 25% had 20 or more partners....
: Not surprising. Remember, that study includes homosexuals as well.
Implying, no so tacitly, that homosexual men are more promiscuous than
heterosexual men. Interesting, especially in the wake of a news report
last week about a group of high school seniors (heterosexual, I might
add) who boasted monthly conquests of up to *67* girls *each*. It
seems that promiscuity is not limited to homosexuals.
This is a sad fact of life: no matter what you look for -- whether it
be homosexual promiscuity, racial discrimination, or sexual harassment
-- you *will* find it. Whether or not it actually exists where you're
looking. | 5 |
1,777 |
Why don't you pull your head out of your ass and into reality? First off, what
is the deal with your subject lines? Do you think that you are being funny?
Ha ha. What a developed sense of humor you have, I'm surprised they let you
out of the cage. Why don't we not talk about the "official" definition of
foreign aid and talk about where money is really spent. More money is spent
stationing troops in Germany (ie paying the troops, maintaining bases and equip,
etc) than in Israel. Plus, Israel does not ask the US to send troops to fight
her battles. If you look at the amount of money spent defending Korean
shipping lanes, Norway, and other trouble spots in the world, you will see that
aid to Israel - from a practical standpoint - is not that much. And so what -
so what if Israel gets the most (assuming I buy your feeble argument)? What
is your point? Do you not want to subsidize Israel? Well, you have two options
1) Start your own campaign, get elected as president, and then force congress
to cut all aid to Israel or 2) get the fuck out! If you don't like how this
country operates and can't change it then move to Iran or something. | 5 |
5,805 | from alt.law-enforcement
-- | 5 |
4,426 |
Sigh. You're absolutely right. We have no political power whatsoever.
Therefore, we should be oppressed and ignored and denigrated, right? I
certainly hope you don't have an SO, sir, because if she heard how
disparaging you are towards political minorities, and if she had any shred
of self-respect, she'd be out the door.
Don't count on it, sweetheart.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Certainly not. Most major universities wouldn't touch views that display
the brainpower and the perspective of a mayfly with a ten-foot pole.
Drewcifer
P.S. Incidentally, I think even mayflies could come up with more
enlightenment than the above bullshit. Evolve a bit, will you? | 5 |
4,535 |
Larry King Live was both telling and sickening. Every other word
out of Janet REno's mouth was "the little children" ,etc. Sounded
like Clinton talking. She made claims that the children were
beaten, etc, DESPITE the pronouncements of social workers that none
of the children who left the compound were abused. But the REAL
crime:
Larry King, and his censored show. NOT ONE FUCKING QUESTION
about Reno's possible error. Just two calls about how she
had made a "good decision". Now, it doesn't take a rocket
scientist to figure out that SOME people are going to be upset. | 5 |
3,139 |
Your ignorance is showing. The BATF warrant was unsealed.
The entire operation was illegal from day ONE. | 5 |
2,591 | Throughout the years of the Israel/Arab-Palestinian conflict, the internal
Palestinian popultation has found itself essentially relegated to the
lower tiers of the economy. Given the major kinds of positions required
by the Israeli and the "Palestinian" economy, there are essentially two
different ones existing side by side aren't holding down many of the "
skilled" positions. So, when Gaza has to operate on its own, there are
few residents trained to fill the need for middle and upper management. | 5 |
4,990 | Dear Friends,
Hi!
I need some information about the Organization ofISlamic Conference (OIC). Does anyone know if there are books, articles, or journals that contains information regarding this organization? If you know would you please send me an E.MAil at my address! I thank you in advance and hope to hear soon since I need thisat present.
Regards!! | 5 |
2,171 |
Aw, gee, and whose fault is THAT?
Dear, dear. They could have COME OUT.
Dear, dear. They could have COME OUT.
The gas began filling the air,
It couldn't have gotten too heavy with all that wind blowing through.
Scattered throughout the house, the cult members made no efforts to
Sad, but they COULD HAVE COME OUT.
| 5 |
6,035 |
Why are you all playing these pathetic number games? The number of people
showing up at the MOW hardly constitutes the entire queer populace. I doubt
that it constitutes more than a handful of us. I'm queer, and I won't be
there, simply because I don't have the time or the transportation. What the
hell makes you think the participants in the MOW embody more than a minimum
number?
Face it, people, we're everywhere. There are always more of us than you
think. Our numbers are constantly GROWING, not diminishing...some of your
children will grow up to join us. Hell, some of MY children may grow up to
join us. The best way to deal with this phenomenon is not to fear it and
blind yourself to it, but to realize that you have nothing to fear. We're
not perverts, we're not dangerous, we're just here, and we're human just
like you--er, most of you.
Idiots like Cramer and Kaldis can rant all they like. It won't do them one
iota of good.
Drewcifer
P.S. I still can't get over the fact that some people actually believe that
every queer in the U.S. would show up at the MOW, and that these numbers are
meaningful. And, come to think of it, what about those of us in OTHER
countries? Tree.
| 5 |
3,612 |
Let's try that again: Why was the BATF concerned about surprise
when they intended to serve the warrant by knocking on the door? The
BATF appears to be inconsistant in their own description of events.
And in any case, how does one mount an ambush if one isn't
"on alert?"
So, were the BATF fired on before or after they left the trailers
to knock on the door to serve the warrant? Every description I've
heard indicates the BATF did not hang around in the trailers once
they decided to open them up.
For that matter, if they expect peaceful citizens, why come in live-
stock trailers to being with?
Ok, just to make sure we've got this straight: You consider
armed troops in disguised vehicles and multiple helicopters to be
used to serve search warrants on peaceful citizens. (And just so
we don't have one of those entertaining shifts, *you* described them
as the BATF expecting them to be, peaceful.)
I don't see how past abuses excuse present ones. Hell, you're
not even discussing the same government.
| 5 |
6,202 |
[many lines deleted]
Ah, here Freeman is being prejudiced (look it up and see what I mean Freeman).
Here Freeman is pre-judging someone before he knows all of the facts. Guess
it can happen to the best (and in his case the worst) of us.
Freeman thinks I am behind when actually I am quite on top of things. The
point he seems to be missing now is that after a certain point accuracy can be
very tedious and ridiculous. See Freeman's next post for an explanation.
| 5 |
3,811 | To all the readers of talk.politics.mideast,alt.flame,alt.stupidity
I am posting this message on behalf of a staff member at UCDavis whose
account had been broken into and used to post offensive messages to
all these groups.
--Dave
----begin included message from szljubi@othello.ucdavis.edu
Please be advised that the person(s) sending to you the inflammatory
remarks you have been receiving have been doing so by ILLEGALLY accessing
my account.
Our campus Information Technology security group has cut off my account's
access to this hacker, and every effort is being made to track down this
person.
I apologize profusely that you have been subjected to the derogatory
comments made by this person and I detest that my name was attached to
them.
Thank you to those of you who alerted our campus security about the nature
of this problem.
Sincerely,
P. Ljubi
| 5 |
7,417 | ...
One might well ask if CA gun owners have given up on the NRA/CRPA.
The national NRA doesn't march in and get things passed. They provide
a convenient label for local activities/activists.
-andy | 5 |
6,867 |
I would agree that a propane explosion is as likely as an
ammunition/explosives blast. My question was directed to the
person who claimed that the propane tank was likely ruptured
by the tank before, or just as, the fire started. If that were
true, shouldn't the explosion have happened very soon after
the fires started?
The FBI has made such a fuss over the videotapes and other
evidence that they have to release something sooner or
later. It's going to happen, and we'll get to see for
ourselves.
Often law enforcement agencies will withold evidence from
public view until the investigation is over.
_____ _____
\\\\\\/ ___/___________________
Mitchell S Todd \\\\/ / _____/__________________________
________________ \\/ / mst4298@zeus._____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_'_/
\_____ \__ / / tamu.edu _____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_/
\__________\__ / / _____/_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_/
\_ / /__________/
\/____/\\\\\\
\\\\\\ | 5 |
2,484 |
<Endless remarks of how the Davidians could have surrendered deleted.>
If they had been quiet there would have been no deaths?? I thought thier
neighbors said that the Davidians never bothered them. Oh, well, that couldn't
have been your point, then.
If they hadn't been stockpiling weapons, then the ATF wouldn't have felt
threatened and had to move in. Here's a newsflash: It isn't illegal to
own more than one firearm. It isn't even illegal to own *lots* of firearms.
They shot federales? The feds shot them, too.
How about that staying inside thing? Here's another newsflash: sometimes
the government does nasty things to you that you don't deserve. Since
they were so nice to the Davidians the first time round, I can see why
the Davidians didn't surrender so easily, especially because they were
expecting the end of the world.
--
Andrew Diederich diederic@spot.colorado.edu | 5 |
3,838 | FURY OF MOTHER NATURE
Man's contribution to environmental "pollution" are paltry compared to those
of nature. In her exceptional book TRASHING THE PLANET, former Atomic Energy
Commision Chairman Dr. Dixie Lee Ray notes based on the available data, "all
of the air polluting materials produced by man since the beginning of the
industrial revolution do not begin to equal the quantities of toxic
materials, aerosols, and particulates spewed into the air from just three
volcanoes: Krakatoa in Indonesia in 1883, Mount Katmai in Alaska in 1912, and
Hekla in Iceland in 1947." To which could be added Mount St. Helens in
Washington State in 1980 (which pumped out 910,000 metric tons of carbon
dioxide alone). El Chicon in Mexico in 1982 (which sent more than 100 million
tons of sulfur gases into the stratosphere), and Mount Pinatubo in the
Philippines (which in 1991 hurled upwards of 30 million tons of material into
the stratosphere).
LOS NINOS
Many environmentalists attributed the 1988 drought in the U.S. to global
warming, but researchers with the National Center for Atmospheric Research in
Boulder Colorado reported that the freakish weather was actually due to a
natural phenomenon, the interaction of El Nino and El Nina, two massive
currents in the tropical Pacific. El Nino is a huge strip of warm water that
periodically appears off the coast of South America and disrupts the world's
weather patterns. Now and then, it alternates with El Nina, a mass of cold
water that comes from the ocean depths along the equator and drifts for
thousands of miles.
CHICAGO TRIBUNE'S Peter Gorner summarized the phenomenon: "Cold water along
the equator clashed with warmer than normal water southeast of Hawaii. The
result was both the U.S. drought and the devastating floods that swamped
Bangladesh...... Nina's cooler water disrupted tropical weather patterns and
distorted the path of the Jet Stream across North America. Then the Jet
Stream shoved rain-producing weather systems away from the interior of the
U.S. resulting in drought."
TERMITE TERROR
Sundry animals and insects also contribute their share to environmental
"degradation. TIME for April 20,1992 noted that in "the Netherlands... manure
from pigs poses a major ecological threat, defiling water supplies with
excessive nitrites and acidifying local soils. Sheep have permanently scarred
the landscape in Spain and Portugal, while in India ... bovines [cows] are
ravenous wraiths whose constant quest for food drives them to ravage
standing forrests."
The February 1983 issue of SCIENCE DIGEST reported that "an international
team of researchers has discovered that termites generate more than twice the
Carbon Dioxide that fuel burning does." According to a study reported in
SCIENCE for November 5, 1982, the "estimated gross amount of Carbon Dioxide
produced [by termites] was more than twice the net global input from fossil
fuel combustion." In addition, "Termites are a potentially important source
of atmospheric methane: they could account for a large fraction of global
emmisions." The wood-eating pests have a bacteria that enables them too
digest carbon so efficiently that some 90 pe is converted too Carbon Dioxide,
methane, and other gases they belch into the atmosphere.
Ants are another natural source of "pollution." In 1987, an atmospheric
chemist with Bell Laboratories, and zoologists from Cornell University,
reported that ants of the subfamily FORMICINAE make and store huge quantities
of the formic acid that contributes most of the acidity of rain that falls in
remote areas and is found in atmosphere gas and precepitation around the
globe. It is abundant, for instance, in the fog and mists that hang over the
rain forests of Central Africa. According to the July 6, 1987 INSIGHT
magazine, the "ants release the acid when defending themselves and
communicating with each other and upon dying. Since 30 percent of the world
ant population belongs to this subfamily, there is significant concern about
the acid the ants release," an amount estimated at "600,000 metric tons
annually." which is equal to the combined formic acid contributions of
automobiles, refuse combustion and vegetation."
Clearly, man has a long way to go to match nature as a "despoiler" of the
environment.
By Robert W. Lee.
| 5 |
6,988 |
CCW's are issued at the discretion of the police chief, so it varies
town by town.
In my town, forget about anything more than "target and sport" (carry to
and from the gun club / hunting area only) unless you're Mr. Moneybags
with Large Daily Deposits. ("Your life isn't worth shit, but your money --
now, that's important.") In other towns, they treat law abiding citizens
like adults.
Secret game hint: you never know when the rules will be changed -- a change
in police chief can throw a town from either side of the board to the other
-- fun for the whole family!
Some chiefs will grant you a "personal protection" permit if you have been
attacked or threatened. Some other blue-suited assholes have been known to
count this as a NEGATIVE against applicants.
It's a crap shoot, and your rights are the stakes.
-- | 5 |
6,040 | A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of the FREE State,
the right of the people to KEEP and BEAR arms, shall not be infringed.
I know that as a Canadian, I don't have much to stand on...
But, I think that the right to KEEP and BEAR arms is very important to
maintaining a FREE society. The America is still the most enviable
place to live on this Earth (by anyone with their head on straight)
and will stay that way only if more people stand-up PUBLICLY for what
they believe!!
Remember, that if you stand for nothing... You'll fall for anything...
including "well-meaning" socialists, they did in Canada. | 5 |
255 | In the following report: _Turkey Eyes Regional Role_ ANKARA, Turkey (AP)
April 27, 1993, we find in the last paragraph:
[Turanist] Although Premier Suleyman Demirel criticized Ozal's often
[Turanist] brash calls for more Turkish influence, he also has spoken
[Turanist] of a swath of Turkic peoples "stretching from the Adriatic
[Turanist] Sea to the Great Wall of China."
Who does Demirel think he is fooling? It seems at both ends of his envisioned
pan-Turkic Empire -- the Balkans and the Caucasus -- Turkey's fascist boasts
are being pre-empted.
I would suggest Turkey let the world feel some of their "Grey Wolf Teeth", and
attempt to stretch from the Adriatic to China! Turkey will have cried "wolf"
just once too much!
| 5 |
105 |
In this case, it was unimportant as to who set the fire. The Davidians
would have burned no matter what, ESPECIALLY if the BATF/FBI set the
fire as this would make the beseiged martyrs to Vernon Howell and
therefore rocket to heaven. A few comments from the remaining
Davidians scattered throughout the country seemed to confirm this
theory (One cult member said that she wished that she had been there,
and that now she would have to wait for Vernon to Return for them. She
actually seemed upset that she did not burn with them).
While I think that Vernon started the fire (his followers anyway),
it is incidental to their reaction.
| 5 |
7,211 | ...
Oh they'll get it back, with exposed film. :(
Shortly after the Rodney King episode, a woman here in Dayton used a
camcorder to tape the police arresting several youths.
Upon noticing her, the police arrested her (for jaywalking!) and
"accidently" erased the tape while they had it.
Yep, they'll get their film back allright.... | 5 |
2,943 |
...
I must object to the characterization of those opposed to the
government's handling of the Waco situation as "gun supporters".
Your argument tries to paint the BATF critics as right-wing
gun nuts, and just mixes up two issues.
I am one of the BATF/FBI critics, and yet I am a liberal
and just as anti-gun as you are. I just happen to believe
that everyone has civil rights, even religious crazies.
They're all human beings, not some nest of wasps that
you're trying to exterminate.
The BATF created the crisis situation by the way they handled
the original raid. It was well known that Koresh regularly
went jogging outside his property. He could have been served
with a search warrant then. He could have been arrested if
he had refused to comply. Instead officers armed with grenades
invaded the property. This escalated into a shooting war
with tragic deaths on both sides.
Those were the first two mistakes: the bad judgment of
asking for a no-knock warrant, and the bad and probably
illegal way the already-unwise warrant was served.
At this point, the situation escalated to where it was
described as an armed standoff and a hostage crisis.
That's when the government started covering their traces,
sealing the warrant, revising their reported history of
the incident, etc.
Things were already building up to disaster. Now the
government could have simply closed the supply routes
and waited. But according to Janet Reno, that option
had "never been seriously considered". So, supposedly
because the agents were "frustrated and fatigued", and
because there supposedly were no backups, they felt
they had to go in.
Now it's entirely possible that Koresh was responsible
for the fire. If that's so, he deserves the blame
for the deaths of the people in his compound.
But the government's hands are far from clean.
Their first raid demonstrated bad judgment plus
contempt for the 4th amendment. The motivations
for the second raid are just too unbelievable.
And their coverup of the events of the first
raid undermines their credibility in anything
they do thereafter. We have only some very
biased FBI agents' word for what happened.
And please let's not turn this into a pro-gun vs. anti-gun
discussion. Anti-gun people do not believe that gun-owners
deserve to get frontally assaulted by armed government
agents. And Koresh's civil rights exist whether his
guns were legal, illegal, illegal-but-should-have-been-legal,
or whatever!
| 5 |
4,946 | \input amstex
\documentstyle{amsppt}
\pagewidth{6.5in}
\magnification=1200
\pageheight{7.5in}
\
\title {Letter to the Editor} \endtitle
\author {Matthew L. Fante} \endauthor
\date {April 20, 1993} \enddate
\endtopmatter
pull back the heavens and show you my anger?! ... fear me.'' The 51 day
standoff between federal agents and the Branch Davidians ended on April 19
in what appeared to be a mass suicide by fire. Now that the multi-million
dollar standoff is over, a few things remain: cleaning up the mess, and
assigning blame.
\
From the onset of the April 19 tear gas attacks by federal agents, President
Clinton already started passing the buck by saying ``Talk to the attorney
general or the FBI... I knew it was going to be done, but the decision was
{\it entirely theirs}. {\it They} made the tactical decision.'' Enter
Attorney General Janet Reno. After most of the Branch Davidians died,
Reno said she took ``full responsibility'' for the decision. ``I approved
the plan'' she said adding that she ``did not advise him [Clinton] as to the
details.'' In fact, she told Clinton that it was ``the best way to go.''
As the fire was roaring through the Branch Davidian's compound Clinton said
that he was ``deeply sadened by the loss of life'' and in the same breath that
``the law enforcement agencies involved in the Waco siege recommended the
course of action pursued today.'' Later he went on to say ``I stand by that
[Reno's] decision.''
\
How did this all begin? At 0930 on February 28 agents of the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) launched a full-scale, high-profile
assault on the Branch Davidian's compound. This raid was much
more than an assault on a group suspected of possessing illegal weapons. The
assault was a planned media circus used as a propaganda device of the BATF
to show their might and just purpose.
\
At the onset of the ``no-knock'' raid, gaggles of heavily armed BATF agents
made their way inside the compound without identifying themselves or state
that they had a warrant until long after the shooting began.
Silently, the agents made their way to the compound's buildings and started
their ``search'' by charging at the buildings and throwing concussion grenades
and ordering the cult members to come out of the buildings.
\
If unknown persons dressed in black ninja costumes and combat fatigues
were to attack you, throwing grenades and brandishing firearms, would you not
assume that these people are criminals and attempt to defend yourself? The
tactics employed by the BATF provoked the battle.
\
The initial assualt by the BATF was not successful. Unfortunately, lives
were lost on both sides. But, had the assault been a success, the liberal
media would have praised the BATF by showing the footage of BATF agents
carting away a bunch of gun-wielding religious nuts. Of course, any
violation of the cult's rights would have been overlooked and the media
would proclaim America's fortune in having super-cop organizations like the
BATF that can systematically ``take out'' terroristic groups such as the
Branch Davidians.
\
As far as I can see, the BATF and the FBI dropped the ball - just like
Philadelphia did in the 1985 MOVE crisis which left 11 dead, 250 homeless,
and a city block razed.
It appears that the BATF has adopted the shoot-first tactic of no-knock
raids to execute search warrants. Don't let the BATF convince you that
the no-knock raid was justified. No-knock assaults make sense when looking
for, say, drugs that can easily be hidden or disposed of in a few seconds.
The BATF was looking for illegal weapons, not drugs that could be hidden or
flushed down the toilet in a matter of a few seconds. What ever happened to
``This is the police! You are surrounded...''? {\it This policy of no-knock
raids, by federal and local agencies, should be restricted}. Further, the use
of military firepower against presumed innocent citizens is a very scary idea,
and is why the Davidians were justified in using lethal force to ensure that
their fourth ammendment rights [``the right of the people to be secure in
their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches
and seizures''] are not denied.
\
\
\
\noindent Matthew L. Fante \newline
\end
--
____________________________________________________________________
Matthew Fante
mlf3@Lehigh.EDU For a good prime call 2^756839 - 1 | 5 |
6,337 |
Which was my point. By converting to another religion I do not loose
my cultural identity, I just loose my religious identification.
I consider that defining the belonging to a nation that claims the
right to have a State based on religious belief is a form of racism.
To be a part or not of the Jeish Nation is defined by my culture and not
by my religion. Actually, if I am an atheist, which is in fact like
converting into a non-Jewish in terms of religion, I am still considered as
part of the Jewish Nation.
I can be proud of my Jewish culture while not giving any importance to the
Jewish religion. Or, even more, I can be proud of my Jewish culture while
still be convinced that the real god is another one.
I do not know anyone who lost his memebership to the American nation
because he changed of god.
I still believe that we should never confusse the actions of States with
the individuals who happen to live there.
In the same way that I do not think it is right to blame all Israelis for the
human rights violations of Israel, I do not think that we should assume
that all Arabs are guilty of the actions of the Arab States.
Some people fled their homes because they were scared. Now they are in
there, still suffering for what they are not responsible.
And, remember that we also were told the same at some point. We ended in
the diaspora. And, of course, I am not for doing to others what I did not
want done to me.
| 5 |
469 |
What is so honorable about placing bombs in passenger airliners,
promising to execute Rushdie, killing 1-2 million people in the
Iran/Iraq war, murdering tourists and persecuting ethinc Christians in
Egypt, massacring Christians in Sudan, harassing Christians in and
barring Jews from Saudi Arabia? How are paranoid Muslims "righteous
in defending themsselves" in these situations? Who are they even
afraid of?
Considering that you seem to be posting from central New Jersey, this
is an odd comment coming from you. I dare you to speak your mind in
the Middle East in any country besides Israel.
| 5 |
1,262 |
Don't be so vague. Let us reexamine it - shall we?
Here you descend into total inanity. Your inability to distinguish
between 'the cold-blooded genocide of Muslim people by the Armenians'
and 'the Armenian war' is incredible. Now, please provide us with your
corrections.
Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.
"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city
of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population,
closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan
on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized
and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during
the next two days."
"Knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions,
Armenians looked to Russia and Europe for the fulfillment of their aims.
Armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the First
World War with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse
to serve their state, the Ottoman Empire, and to assist instead other
invading Russian armies. Their hope was their participation in the Russian
success would be rewarded with an independent Armenian state carved out of
Ottoman territories. Armenian political leaders, army officers, and common
soldiers began deserting in droves."
"With the Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of
World War I, the degree of Armenian collaboration with the Ottoman's enemy
increased drastically. Ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks,
Armenian revolutionaries armed Armenian civil populations, who in turn
massacred the Muslim population of the province of Van in anticipation of
expected arrival of the invading Russian armies."
"...Meanwhile, Czar Nicholas II himself came to the Caucasus to make final
plans for cooperation with the Armenians against the Ottomans, with the
president of the Armenian National Bureau in Tiflis declaring in response:
'From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the
glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian
arms...Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the
Bosporus. Let, with Your will, great Majesty, the peoples remaining
under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey
who have suffered for the faith of Christ receive resurrection for a new
free life under the protection of Russia.'[155]
Armenians again flooded into the czarist armies. Preparations were made
to strike the Ottomans from the rear, and the czar returned to St. Petersburg
confident that the day finally had come for him to reach Istanbul."
[155] Horizon, Tiflis, November 30, 1914, quoted by Hovannisian, "Road to
Independence," p. 45; FO 2485, 2484/46942, 22083.
"Ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt, and
the way was prepared for a new Russian push into eastern Anatolia, to be
accompanied by an open Armenian revolt against the sultan.[156]"
[156] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," pp. 45-47; Bayur, III/1,
pp. 349-380; W.E.D. Allen and P. Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields,"
Cambridge, 1953, pp. 251-277; Ali Ihsan Sabis, "Harb Hahralaram," 2 vols.,
Ankara, 1951, II, 41-160; FO 2146 no. 70404; FO 2485; FO 2484, nos.
46942 and 22083.
"An Armenian state was organized at Van under Russian protection, and it
appeared that with the Muslim natives dead or driven away, it might be
able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient Armenian
civilization. An Armenian legion was organized 'to expel the Turks from
the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted
Russian drive into the Bitlis vilayet.'[162] Thousands of Armenians from
Mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new
Armenian state...By mid-July there were as many as 250,000 Armenians
crowded into the Van area, which before the crisis had housed and fed
no more than 50,000 people, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.[163]"
[162] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," p. 56; FOP 2488, nos. 127223 and
58350.
[163] BVA, Meclis-i Vukela Mazbatalari, debates of August 15-17, 1915;
Babi-i Ali Evrak Odasi, no. 175, 321, "Van Ihtilali ve Katl-i Ami,"
Zilkade 1333/10 September 1915.
I went through this just a few weeks ago; here it comes again. The
entire Turkish population of Armenia (which Armenians called Tartars)
constituted at least about 40% of the total population of Armenia
was deliberately exterminated. (For the population statistics, please
look to the book of Richard Hovannessian, "Armenia on the Road to
Independence.") I listed three books earlier of such a monstrous crime
by the writings of one Armenian, one American, and one British. They
are: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard R. Hartill; "Adventures in the Near
East" by A. Rawlinson; "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn.
Also, I personally have copies of documents of this crime by the writings
of two Armenians and also one American. The official British report about
this massacre mentioned in one of these documents (Lord Curzon-Aharonin
interview) is the report of the British High Commissioner to Caucasia,
Sir Oliver Wardrop.
"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of
the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at
least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The
memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and
eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
(Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990)
Need I go on?
Serdar Argic | 5 |
272 |
As you're no doubt aware, Phill, there are probably five or six
different, mutually contradictory versions of the events in Waco on
Feb. 28 all of which are from reputable news sources, ranging the the
Associated Press to TIME to Newsweek.
Some of the earliest reports issued by the AP were not at all
flattering the to BATF, and produced some question as to who fired first.
Now, for all I know, you were there to witness it. But
I kind of doubt that.
The BATF, in a letter they've been sending out to people,
says both that they were ambushed because they lost the element of
surprise, and that they went up and knocked on the door and had it
slammed in their faces.
It strikes *me* as kind of strange to rely on surprise to
serve a warrant by knocking on the door.
There are at least questions that need to be answered.
This paranoid assertation was made by witnesses to the original
assault who stated that the BATF initiated hostilities by throwing
concussion grenades and reported by the Associated Press.
Phill, the BATF were in a firefight with the BD for *forty-five*
minutes. I find it hard to believe that if they were expecting peaceful
citizens they *wouldn't* have shown up in live-stock trailers and would
have retreated immediately.
If they *were* expecting peacful citizens, why show up with over
a hundred officers, some of which clearly visible on video to be carrying
sub-machineguns, and *3* National Guard Helicopters?
I don't know who did what, but, as I said, there are questions that
need to be answered.
| 5 |
2,970 | Accounts of Anti-Armenian Human Right Violations in Azerbaijan #015
Prelude to Current Events in Nagorno-Karabakh
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
| |
| . . . They beat up the husband, dragged the wife outside, |
| and stood her naked next to our burning things; her |
| husband was lying at her feet on the ground. The crowd |
| shouted, "Look at the naked Armenian!" They were going to |
| throw the poor woman into the fire...Mamma wouldn't allow |
| it but I went to the window and saw her standing there, |
| and they took skewers that had been heated in the fire |
| and stuck them into her body. |
| |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
DEPOSITIONS OF:
ZINAIDA POGHOSOVNA HAKOPIAN
Born 1937
Dispatcher
Kavkazenergoremont Electric Booster Station
Her daughters
GAYANE (GAYA) VAZGENOVNA HAKOPIAN
Born 1970
Orderly
Sumgait Municipal Hospital No. 1
DIANA VAZGENOVNA HAKOPIAN
Born 1978
Second-Year Student
Sumgait Secondary School No. 13
Residents at Building 21/31, Apartment 47
Microdistrict No. 3
Sumgait [Azerbaijan]
-Zinaida: On March 20 we arrived in Yerevan, and the next day they registered
us at the train station and took us to the boarding house. The conditions were
wonderful, thanks to our Armenians, who received us. But it's not relaxing all
the same. I don't know how everyone else feels about it, but for me it's
torture. We don't have a place to call our own. I had a two bedroom apartment
in Sumgait, my children went to school and we lived well, in friendship. It's
painful that in our times, in 1988, in the Soviet period, people can break
into our apartment and try to kill me and my children, in whom I've put all my
efforts and my whole youth. Everything was going well for us: my older
daughter was studying at the Institute, the middle one was preparing to enter
medical school and was interning as an orderly, and my youngest had been sick
for a long time, but had returned to health. I have been though a lot in my
life: it's been seven years since I lost my husband, I raised my children by
myself. Lots of women have similar fates, but there's nothing to be done about
it. But I can't control myself when I remember what happened in Sumgait on
February 27, 28, and 29, it was just a horror, it's indescribable.
On February 27 our relative, Ira, came to visit us. She's better friends with
my oldest daughter, and so right away she asked, "Where's Vika?" I say,
"Vika's off in Pirkuli on a trip for three days, she's supposed to come back
tomorrow." My middle daughter, Gaya, had baked a cake and we sat there talking
and laughing, drinking tea. Then Gaya and Diana went to walk Ira home.
They left and a few minutes went by; suddenly I hear noise. I raced out to
the balcony--our balcony is right across from the bus station, we live at the
corner of Mir and Druzhba Streets--I look and see that there are hoards of
people near the bus station and they're all shouting something. What they're
shouting I can't understand. Our neighbor is standing on his balcony, too. I
ask, "Nufar, what's happened?" He says, "I don't know, I can't figure it out
either." I got scared--the kids had gone outside, and I wanted to run after
them, but then there was a knock at the door. I open the door and it's the
kids. "Mamma," says Gayane, "you'll never believe what's going on out there!
It's awful!" Ira says, "Aunt Zina, they're shouting, 'Karabagh! Karabagh!
Karabagh is ours!' We didn't know what was going on. They're threatening to
drive out the Armenians and slaughter them."
I called my brother, and his wife answered the phone. I said, "Aunt Tamara,
don't worry, Ira is staying here with us, and we'll see her home later." I
couldn't shut my eyes all night long, even until morning. I was worried about
Vika. My God, what was going on, what had happened?!
-Gayane: That day, on the 27th, we stood on the balcony and observed what was
happening, although Mamma wouldn't allow us to watch all of it. There weren't
50 yards between our building and the bus station. We could see and hear
everything perfectly. They were stopping buses, dragging people out, leading
all the passengers out, looking for Armenians. If they found an Armenian on
the bus, then it started . . .I don't know what to call it . . .
-Zinaida: It's called slaughter.
-Gayane: The mob would descend on people and beat them. I don't know if they
were killing them or not, but when they left them, they lay still, not moving,
as though nothing was left of them. One person was lying there and they
started dragging him. The police were standing right there, to the side, not
doing anything, they didn't take any steps to calm that mob.
It was awful to stand there and watch it all from the balcony. And you
couldn't go anywhere, somehow . . . you wanted to be able to see everything
so as to tell of it later. We wanted to leave Sumgait that day. What kept us
was the idea that we live in the Soviet Union, and that something would be
done about it. Where in the world was our government?!
-Zinaida: We couldn't leave town, of course, because our older daughter wasn't
home. And at the same time I was terrified for Gaya and Diana. On Sunday
morning when I went to see Ira home, our neighbor said, "Zin', you know they
went into Valodya's house and smashed everything he had. They murdered his
father and two sons." Valodya is our neighbor, he's an Armenian, he lives on
the first floor. I think, my God, what is happening?! And in broad daylight!
I saw Ira home and when on the way back I came across a mob shouting "Slay the
Armenians! Karabagh is ours!" This was at 12 o'clock in the afternoon. On the
way I stopped into a bread store and the saleswoman says, "They beat our store
manager, they thought he was an Armenian and they beat him, but he was an
Azerbaijani." And I asked, "Did they kill him?" She says, "No, he's in serious
condition." I left there and started to walk home on that same street, but the
mob started moving in my direction. I turned off the street and went down the
little way that goes toward the Sputnik store. There I met another crowd, but
these weren't bandits, these were our people from Sumgait. I was so frightened
that I walked without knowing where was going, I couldn't feel my legs or the
ground under my feet. I was walking and there was a boy standing before my
eyes. This was on the 27th, around evening time. He ran under our balcony, and
the mob surged toward him shouting, "He's an Armenian, get him!" He wore a
black coat. They grabbed him, that boy, near the bus stop, I saw it. They
grabbed him by the legs and struck his head on the asphalt.
I made it home but I just couldn't calm down. My oldest daughter was in my
thoughts. I was thinking, my daughter's coming home now, they'll stop her bus
and she'll be gone. There's no police, no protection, nothing. It's like they
had all died, there's no one, nothing, no authorities whatsoever. I can't even
find the words for it! I look and see an Ikarus arriving. Before going to the
bus station they stop near our place, across from the Kosmos movie theater. So
this Ikarus stops there and the gang is yelling, the Azerbaijanis are running
toward it yelling, "Armenians out!" And I see them take the Armenians and beat
them, killing them. I can't watch it any more. It was a nightmare. I just
couldn't watch it. But Gaya was standing there watching it, and I scolded her.
She says, "Mamma, I have to see it, I have to know what's happening, I have to
see it with my own eyes so I can tell our people of it later. So our children
will know."
Gayane: We saw a great deal on the 27th. They caught no less than 20 people
before my eyes. I can't say for sure if they killed them or not . . .
-Zinaida: There were too many people there, the mob was too big. You couldn't
make anything out. But I saw that boy in the black coat with my own eyes. He
was 18 or 19 years old.
-Gayane: I think he was older, probably, about 22. A tall fellow, a big guy,
in a coat. He was walking quickly, but when they shouted that he was an
Armenian, he tore off running. And the mob went after him. They caught him
right under our balcony. I don't know. I don't think there could have been
much left of him after that. You can imagine what happens when a crowd attacks
one person. It was a mob, big, angry, and featureless. You know, there was a
similarity in the way they were dressed, mostly they were wearing long black
coats. You couldn't even tell them apart, they were all wearing black and they
all looked alike.
-Zinaida: When they picked up that boy and struck him against the asphalt and
he cried "Mamma!" I ran into the room. I couldn't watch any longer. An awful
lot was going on right then, in various places, it wasn't only that boy,
several people were being beaten up. You couldn't see all of it at once, but
when that boy cried "Mamma!" I immediately started watching only him.
-Gayane: On that first day it went on from about six in the morning until
twelve at night. At midnight they dispersed and the police took their place.
They were scattered about in all districts. But how can you explain the fact
that by morning, when it had already started getting light, around seven
o'clock, our police were gone? The police disappeared and yielded their
positions to the bandits. In the morning they started gathering at our inter-
section again, at the bus station and at the entrance to downtown. From
morning on all the roads and mass transit stops were covered, and by nine
o'clock you couldn't even see the ground. There were thousands of people in
the crowd. Again they began stopping vehicles and checking for Armenians.
-Zinaida: They had signals. I realized that when I noticed that they made a
cross with their arms, they crossed their arms over their heads. The cross,
evidently, meant that the vehicle had Armenians in it. They let the
Azerbaijani cars through, and they stopped the Armenian ones and started
their pogrom.
-Gayane: They stopped a white Zhiguli and asked the driver what his
nationality was. He got out and said they were from Baku. "But what is your
nationality?" He says Armenian. They immediately start shouting, "Ermeni,
Ermeni!" And he says, "What's going on? I'm coming from Baku. I don't live
in Sumgait." "Doesn't matter, who cares if you're from Baku or Sumgait."
Anyway the crowd pounced on him and started beating him, and they dragged a
woman--his wife, probably--out of the car. At this point the police came and
took the two and led them away. Then the mob started smashing the car, and
then burned it. The flames blazed . . . it was a horrible fire! Then everyone
ran away, they thought the car was going to explode. About 20 minutes later
another car comes along, a green Moskvich. They ran up shouting "Ermeni!
Ermeni!" But this time they didn't pull the people out of the car, they didn't
beat them. Maybe they burned them along with the car, because no one emerged
from the flames. The neighbor boy Vakhit was standing on the balcony too,
acquaintances of his walked by below, and he asked them and they said, "Yes,
they burned them along with the car." About two hours later a whole wedding
procession came by, and there was a doll on the first car. We thought they
were Armenians, but the cars started to honk loudly. They were Azerbaijanis,
and they were immediately allowed through.
-Zinaida: The driver waved his hand as if to say 'get out of the way.' The
whole crowd parted and the procession passed through freely.
-Gayane: By the way, at the marriage hall, which is right in the courtyard
of our building, there was a wedding that day. The Azerbaijanis were cele-
brating and dancing. On the streets there was grief and death, people were
being killed, and people were celebrating the whole time.
-Zinaida: Before the apartment itself was attacked I asked Gaya to call and
find out when the tourist bus was supposed to arrive. She went to her
girlfriend's in the building, she lives in the first entryway, on the third
floor. Gaya came back and said, "Mamma, the bus is supposed to come around
eight, after eight." You can imagine what I was feeling, how hard it was:
Vika knew nothing about what was happening and was coming to meet her death.
Then I heard shouting. I raced to the window and see that the belongings of
our neighbors from the second entryway are being thrown outdoors. They were
thrashing about with the pillows and the feathers were lying like snow. I
started to cry. I am walking around the room, crying, wailing: Vika's not
here, what will come of her . . . Gaya, of course, was consoling me: "Mamma,
nothing will happen to her, don't worry, calm down, she's in good company,
they'll look out for her."
Diana: I saw the green car burn. The car was burning when we went out onto the
balcony. Gaya pushed me away, telling me to get off the balcony. I left. Then
they came up to the balcony and asked if there were any Armenians here.
-Zinaida: You're right, I forgot about that, that was on the 27th.
Diana: There's a small, grassy area in front of our balcony; there are trees
planted there. The mob asked if there were any Armenians in the building.
All the neighbors said, no, there are no Armenians here. There weren't a lot
of Armenians in our building, but there weren't just a few Armenian families,
either.
-Gayane: They fell upon the apartments on the 28th. There were terribly many
of them. Our courtyard is huge, and it was completely filled with them.
-Zinaida: Katusev had made an appearance on television earlier. He said that
two people, Azerbaijanis, had been killed in Karabagh. And when he said that
. . . you know how bees sound, have you heard how they buzz? It was like the
buzzing of millions of bees . . . and with this buzzing they flew into our
courtyard, howling and shouting. I don't know how to describe it. By this
point we were afraid to watch from the balcony, but when I looked out of the
bedroom window--the Znaniye Bookstore is down there, and Armenians live on the
second and fourth floors--I saw their things being thrown out the windows. I
realized that they would be upon us any minute. I shouted to Gayane, "Gaya,
hide the gold." That's honestly what I told my child. I grabbed Diana. I
didn't know what to do! Vika still wasn't home, and it was already getting
dark. I was afraid to look at the time because I was already horrified as it
was.
-Gayane: Just in case, we changed the television channel from the Moscow
station to the Azerbaijani one.
-Zinaida: And turned it up loud.
-Gayane: We never listened to Azerbaijani music. It just didn't do much for
us. In all those years we almost never listened to it. But sometimes we would
watch some entertainment show or film on Azerbaijani television. And that was
it. And here we had it turned up full blast. So they would think we were
Azerbaijanis.
-Zinaida: Well you can imagine, they're slaughtering Armenians, robbing them,
and we're listening to this concert music from Baku. Our Azerbaijani neighbors
suggested we do it, they knocked on the door and told Gaya to turn on
Azerbaijani music. But we already had it on anyway. Turn on the lights, they
told us, so they will think you're not Armenians. They're saying the Armenians
are afraid to turn on their lights, they're hiding.
-Gayane: Apparently there was some kind of arrangement, because we noticed
that the lights were off only in Armenian apartments, that is, the
Azerbaijanis were warned, and every last one of them had their lights on.
When we turned the lights off two of our neighbors came immediately, and
later, another one. "Turn on the lights," they told us, "please. Nothing will
happen. Be calm. Nothing will happen."
-Zinaida: "We won't allow them to come into your apartment."
-Gayane: We believed those people. We had never done anything bad to them.
-Zinaida: After the whole nightmare, about March 15, before we left for
Armenia, when I was coming into the building they were all crying. The
Azerbaijanis were crying, saying, "Can it be there is no God? How could
they raise their hands against your family? You never did anyone any harm,
you never refused anyone anything, not in hard times, or in time of fortune,
or in time of mourning. How could they give you away? How could they sell you
down the river?" They really had given us away. Some of them protected us, but
others gave us away. They sold us down the river.
-Gayane: I was wearing slacks that day, and when it all began I became
cautious for some reason and I changed my clothes. Azerbaijani women don't
wear pants. Young Armenian and Russian girls in Sumgait wore pants, but the
Azerbaijanis found that very strange. And I thought I better put on a skirt,
otherwise they won't believe me if I told them we were Azerbaijanis. There was
nothing else we could do. No other way out. I was forced to turn myself into
God knows who. I let my hair down, tousled it, and threw a scarf over my head.
-Zinaida: And she told me, "Mamma, you hide. Take Diana and go into the other
room. You two look more like Armenians. They'll figure out that we're
Armenians right away." But how could I go away and leave her there?!
-Gayane: I went out onto the balcony. It worked out better that way. We were
the only Armenian family in the fourth entryway. This gave us hope: we were
the only ones, the neighbors wouldn't let them in. They, the Azerbaijanis,
would fear for themselves and for their children. I looked and saw someone
crawling up on the balcony from below, it was easy to get up onto our balcony.
When we would lose the keys the neighbors would let up into their places and
we would crawl across onto our balcony and get in that way. So I turned around
and saw a guy with a knife on our balcony. He looks at me and shouts, "What
nationality are you here?"
-Zinaida: At the same time they were knocking on the door.
-Gayane: "What nationality are you?" he's shouting. Well at first I was
frightened, but then I got control of myself and answered in perfect
Azerbaijani, "You should be ashamed of yourself, asking a question like that.
Can't you see I'm an Azerbaijani? If I were an Armenian would I come out to
meet you face to face and look you in the eyes?" He looks at me and tells the
people with him, "Yes, Azerbaijanis live here." From below they tell him,
"Check it out, it can't be, they have to be Armenians." And he asks me again,
"What nationality are you?" I say, "Can't you see?" I started fuming. I could
not say anything else. "You're blind, that's for sure! You can yell all you
want, but that won't make us Armenians." I hear them breaking down our
door, and Mamma went toward the door. I say, "I don't have time to deal
with you, they're breaking down our door." 1 go to the door and ask, "Who is
it?" They answer, "Open up!" I say, "Wait, why are you breaking the door?
What's going on? I'm opening up." We never locked the lower lock, it was
broken, but now they had locked it out of fear, and I couldn't get it open. I
say wait, I'm looking for the key. I opened the door--it was almost broken
down already. I opened the door and they burst in. I say, "What's going on?
Why are you breaking down our door?"
-Zinaida: Then they started climbing in from the balcony. They're shouting,
"Why don't you open the door?" And I say, "Well you've already come in the
balcony." Then Diana sees their knives, runs into the bathroom, and closes the
door. Gaya cries out, "Mamma, Diana ran into the bathroom!" I ran to the door
and forgot that we were pretending to be Azerbaijanis, and said in Armenian:
"Diana, open the door!" Gaya tried to calm them down, and I'm shouting with
tears in my eyes for Diana to open the door.
-Diana I was sitting on the couch with my doll, Little Red Riding Hood. That
guy climbed in from the balcony with a big knife with a yellow handle. They
put it up to Mamma's stomach. I ran to the bathroom, opened the door, and
slammed it behind me. I was frightened, and started to cry. I shouted, "Mamma,
they want to kill you!" And then . . . then they started shouting, "Give us
your passports." And Gaya says, "What do you need passports for, we're
Azerbaijanis."
-Gayane: I tried to convince them that we were Azerbaijanis, I was trying
everything I could, I could get on my knees and plead. I could humble myself,
because at that moment I was worried about other lives than just my own. To be
honest I didn't care about anything else, as long as my little sister would
survive, her life and health had cost us so dearly! I tell them, "What, don't
you understand anything?" They started shouting, they were tremendously
excited, shouting with terribly loud voices, saying that in Stepanakert their
girls were being killed, raped, and tossed around with pitchforks. Why
shouldn't they do the same to us? I said, "Who's doing all that? Who is doing
it? Some Armenians! What does that have to do with us? Give me the knife, I'll
cut my own face." "Now you calm down," they tell me.
Zinaida: I told them, "Why didn't you deal with them there! There, in
Karabakh? Nothing has happened here, no one has been fighting here, not we
with the Armenians, nor they with us. Why didn't you give it right back to
them there? What've we got to do with this?" I got confused. I had been
saying that we were Azerbaijanis, but suddenly I started speaking as though
I were an Armenian, but they didn't notice. One of them was next to me,
with a knife at my breast. And he says to the others, "What pretty girls." He
meant Gaya and my 10-year-old Diana. I was terrified. Gaya started assuring
them that we were Azerbaijanis. One guy stood in the doorway and gave us bad
looks.
-Gayane: He demanded the passports. I said, "Young man, I don't have my
passport here." He says, "Let's have the passport, we won't believe you
without your passport." And one of them started hurriedly searching for
documents. They turned the wardrobe in the other room upside down, took the
picture off the wall, and started pulling the clothes off their hooks, yelling
and shouting, "Passport! Passport!" They all started yelling, there was so
much noise in the apartment. They were all shouting. My hair stood on end.
Suddenly I said, "Listen, my Papa died, 40 days haven't passed yet, we have a
Muslim household, we're in mourning, you should be ashamed of yourselves,
you've disgraced your honor." And then Mamma started to cry.
-Zinaida: I started crying: "My husband died, 40 days haven't yet passed,
aren't you ashamed of yourselves!" In fact my husband had died seven years
earlier, in 1981. "We're in mourning, and you burst in here demanding docu-
ments. The documents are at the housing office, I'm filing for my pension."
Well it seemed like they believed us. Then one guy said, "They're Lezgins.
Can't you see, there are no men here, only women. Leave." Another fellow in
the group agreed with him, he also said that we were Lezgins. But a third
said, "No, they're Armenians." Well the other two convinced him, I don t know
how, and all the rest of them listened to them too. There were about 50 of
them, if not more, all in our three-room apartment, even the entryway was
filled. They started leaving. Yes, we're Lezgins, we're Lezgins." They started
leaving, and one of them took our tape recorder with him. And the one who had
first called us Lezgins says, "Leave that, what are you doing?" They seemed to
obey that guy.
-Gayane: He was tall, wearing baggy jeans and a coat.
-Zinaida: With a little moustache, I think.
-Gayane: No, he didn't have a moustache, he was tall with brown hair, he
wasn't a bad-looking sort. He didn't have anything in his hands.
-Zinaida: He stood at the threshold.
-Gayane: Yes, he didn't look like a bad guy, and you know, his face seemed
familiar to me. I had seen him somewhere. And more than once. But I can't
remember where. When he came in I was stupefied, I had a premonition that he
wouldn't be able to remain indifferent. When he said that we were Lezgins and
that they should leave, such gladness started to glow inside of me. Hope. They
continued to argue on their way out. Some said, "They're Armenians all the
same." And that fellow answered, "even if they are Armenians, it's shameful,
the father died, they're mourning, there's nothing but women in the house,
there's no men. We should stay out of the apartment." "What do you mean, stay
out? We can go in there!" And he said, "No, we should stay out, they're
Lezgins, we're leaving here." The three of them protected us.
-Zinaida: No, the two of them. The one in the short coat and the one in the
grey suit, who stood at the threshold, about 19 or 20 years old. Well they
were all young really. The two of them defended us.
-Diana: Three, three!
-Zinaida: Do you remember the third one, Diana?
-Diana: Yes, he was wearing dark clothes.
-Gayane: The third one was the one who came back. He wore a long brown coat.
-Diana: He wore a long, darkish brown coat, and his hair was dark too. When
they left, they told him downstairs that those women were Armenians, and ran
back and said that they were going to kill us.
-Zinaida: They had all left, and we had started to calm down a little, and I
closed the door. And then there is a knock. I told Gaya, "Take Diana and go
into the other room." My daughters went into the dining room, and I opened the
door. There was a guy there who said, "Run, hide! They're coming to kill you
now!" We ran up to the third floor. We had some good neighbors up there,
Azerbaijanis. I sent the kids and stood there alone, not knowing what to do.
I was so far gone . . . Out of a whole room I couldn't even think of anything
to take. I even forgot to take my work documents; at the time I had been
preparing a report to send to Baku, and the documents were at home. I couldn't
see anything . . . I could only see Vika, my older daughter. I sent Gaya and
Diana upstairs, and stood there asking that fellow, "Should I close the door
and leave everything like this?" He says, "What do you mean, door? Get out of
here, they're coming to kill you! What are you standing there for?" And I ran
after the children.
-Gayane: We barely had time to get up to the third floor when they burst into
our apartment and started shouting, "Where are the Armenians?" We were already
at the neighbors'. They had an infant at the time, and the neighbor said,
"Don't you worry, I'm not letting anyone in this apartment no matter what."
-Zinaida: On the third floor there I started asking the folks, our neighbors,
to go meet Vika. The bus was due to arrive at eight o'clock. I dissolved in
tears, Gaya was soothing me, Diana was next to us, she was crying too, and I'm
already thinking that I've lost my older daughter, but deep in my heart I
still believe she's alive . . . And my tears choked me. I was going out of my
mind. But no one could leave the building, the courtyard was packed with
people, swarming with them. From the balcony the neighbor in whose apartment
we were hiding asked the bandits, "Where are those Armenians, the ones who
were at home? Where did they make off to?" They told him they didn't know.
They asked him where he lived. He answered, "Can't you see, on the third
floor." He asked them specially to divert attention from his own apartment. We
heard them taking free reign of our apartment, and they threw our color
television off the balcony and it exploded.
-Gayane: Mamma was crying the whole time. She fell into a faint and we brought
her around and held her back, because the whole time she kept making for the
door to go outside, alternately raving and sobbing, shouting, and calling
Vika. She didn't notice us, probably because we were next to her. Her thoughts
were only on Vika. The neighbors who were hiding us were calming her too,
offering tea.
-Zinaida: We are very grateful to them. Thanks to them my children and I are
alive, well, and unharmed. When they were throwing our belongings out and
burning them--the beds, the pillows, and the chairs--our neighbor came to us
and said, "How lucky you are that it's not you standing there naked, but some
other woman instead. You're from our part of the building you lost your
husband, you have children, thank God you're not in her position, we wouldn't
have been able to take it. I don't know what I would do." He of course
wouldn't have done anything, he was just trying to calm us down. In the yard
they were torturing our neighbors, fellow Armenians They lived on the fifth
floor, in the third entryway. A married couple, Vanya and Nina, and their
three children. Their last name is V. They hid their two daughters, and stayed
with their son to defend themselves, they even got boiling water ready, and an
axe, and held them off for a long time, but the . . . They beat up the
husband, dragged the wife outside, and stood her naked next to our burning
things; her husband was lying at her feet on the ground. The crowd shouted,
"Look at the naked Armenian!" They were going to throw the poor woman into the
fire. The neighbors came out, an Azerbaijani woman threw her a scarf, and she
covered herself with it, and the neighbors led her off to their apartment.
All the neighbors saw and heard it . . .
-Gayane: Mamma wouldn't allow it but I went to the window and saw her standing
there, and they took skewers that had been heated in the fire and stuck them
into her body. Our neighbor, who lived in the same entryway as Nina--she
lives with us in the same boarding house now--saw what they had done, Nina
showed her, from her knees up, almost up to her neck, her whole body was
covered, riddled, with wounds.
-Zinaida: In the morning, during the night of the 29th, rather, after one
o'clock, two buses approached the station. I wanted to run out. By then I
didn't care any more if I lived or died, but Gayane wouldn't let me go, and
the neighbors said that I would bring disaster to them and they would be
slain along with their children. Gaya was crying and said that I forgot about
them, my other children, but I could only think of Vika. I imagined her torn
to pieces, I'm a mother, and they're just children, they don't understand I
would have jumped off the balcony and run to the soldiers for help. I was
going to do it but Gayane wouldn't let me: "Mamma, please! Mamma, I beg of
you!" The neighbors were sleeping and Gayane woke them with her cries. So we
held on that way till morning.
On the morning of the 29th I told our neighbor I was going to go downstairs to
our apartment, maybe Vika was lying there, murdered. He told me he would go
himself. He was gone for about five minutes, but it seemed like an eternity to
me. He returned and said there was no one there, nothing. I went down too,
stole down like a mouse, and slipped in everything was thrown all about. I
didn't go to the soldiers because the armored personnel carriers were far
away, farther than the bus station. I began looking for the briefcase with my
work in it. I was miserable because of my daughter, and at the same time
because of my work. My documents were there, my travel papers--I worked in the
transport division -- and my trip sheets.
-Gayane: Mamma is a very responsible person, she was always ready to work
around the clock to do her job.
-Zinaida: I look around and I can't find the briefcase. I didn't care about
the fact that everything had been stolen out of all three of my rooms, that
everything was smashed, and the furniture was broken, I worried about that
later, but at first I was concerned about the lost documents. I went into the
kitchen. My daughter had hidden some valuables in the gas stove: my ring and
my earrings. It was all there. Five minutes passed and Gayane ran in and said,
"Mamma, hurry." And Diana came downstairs too. Gayane found her coat among
the debris, and Diana found her track shoes, her coat, and some of her
dresses.
-Diana: Immediately after we got back up to the neighbors they started
throwing things around in the apartment under us. They threw a television onto
the asphalt, it exploded so violently it sounded like a thunderclap. Then,
when Vika wasn't there, I wouldn't eat, and they forced me, but I couldn't
eat. Because I loved Vika terribly and she and I had always gone to the movies
and gone for walks in the park. When we went into our apartment the next day
and everything was broken, right away I started looking for my dolls and my
books, but I didn't see anything. When we went back upstairs I managed to take
two cups from my tea service, and Gaya took Vika's suit and one of her own
dresses. My Italian boots were gone, my brown coat, it was beautiful, there
wasn't a one of my beautiful dolls, and my giant lion was gone too, the one
that had been on top of the television. He was very large and very handsome.
I had two satchels, one for first grade and the other for second grade, one
was yellow-green with a boy and a girl on it, they're playing a drum and a
violin, and there is a dog sitting there closing its ears, and on the other
one were the letters A, B, C, D, E and the numbers 4+5, two girls and a boy
with their mouths open like they are singing. They were beautiful satchels.
They were gone too. I had many books, I collected them, they were in the
bedside tables. And a boy had given me a little apron and a headband for my
birthday, they weren't around either. And I had some big books, fat ones, and
they disappeared, only one was left, The Malachite Box. The Adventures of
Karlson, Pippi Longstockings, and Fairy Tales of the World were left. All the
other books were gone.
-Zinaida: I continued searching for my briefcase, and then my supervisor
arrived. He had waited for me until nine o'clock, but I didn't appear, and he
thought something must have happened, so he came. He's a Russian, Aleksei
Semyonovich Lomakin. Alik Aliyev, the mechanic, came with him. When they saw
my wrecked apartment they were just petrified, they could not say a thing.
When I saw them I started crying. My Azerbaijani neighbors came in. Some of
them were crying, others were helping me pick up. I go on looking for my
documents and at the same time put things into the wardrobe. Now that I
remember it it's both funny and painful: How could I have thought that I had
returned to my apartment and that everything had gone back to normal?
Incidentally, later, when I went back to the apartment again those things were
gone too. And the door was gone. After my supervisor left, in the afternoon,
the neighbor said that we should leave, find another refuge. "I'm afraid," he
said, "that someone saw you come to my apartment, and that they could kill you
and us too. My God, where could I go it was daytime and those . . . I don't
even know what to call them, the bandits, those marauders, those jackals, I
don't know what to call them, I can't find the words, they were everywhere.
Where should I go with two girls? When I opened the door I had tears in my
eyes, and I was terrified . . . And he said, "Go to Alik's, he's an
Azerbaijani, too." and I say, "You should have said that earlier, when my
supervisor was here with the car, he could have taken us with him." Everyone
feared for their own lives. What could I do? I went out into the entryway and
stood. And he says, "any other time I would keep you here a year, or two. But
right now, I'm sorry . . . " Then another door opened, also on the third
floor. I ask the neighbor, "Tayara, can we hide at your place?" She's an
Azerbaijani too. She says, "What kind of question is that? Come in!" She hid
us. There were many people in the courtyard, and Gaya and I hid in the
wardrobe, and they put Diana under a mattress, leaving a small opening so the
child could breathe. Tayara said that when the bandits left she would let us
out, and when they came back she would hide us again.
We sat in the wardrobe for about a half hour. Gaya became ill, and I allowed
her to get out. My legs fell asleep and felt like cannons. We hadn't eaten or
drunk anything for so long, since the 27th, when we saw that horror--and all
of it just snapped in me. Tayara's husband went outside, even though I begged
him to stay, saying there should be a man in the house. He said that he'd be
in the courtyard, and if anything happened his wife would signal him. She put
her passport and all of their documents on the table so if they suddenly came
in she could show them that they were an Azerbaijani family. My girls went to
the window--and what was going on out there! I feared for my children, that
someone would recognize them from the street. Gaya let her hair down and put
on a scarf so she would resemble an Azerbaijani, but directly across there was
a 9-story building, their windows were right across from us, and I shouted
that someone would see her and give us away on the spot. But she kept on
looking.
-Diana: I watched too.
-Zinaida: Downstairs the bandits were fighting with the soldiers. The soldiers
didn't shoot, they didn't have orders to. I saw them throwing rocks at
the soldiers, they were young boys, 18- and 19-year olds, and they defended
themselves . . . I'm a mother after all, and they were no different from my
children. When one of the soldiers fell and his head started bleeding I had to
stop looking, l couldn't watch anymore . . . I imagined my children in their
shoes . . .
-Gayane: The troops had assumed their defense that morning and had cordoned
off the buildings, and some of the soldiers surrounded the bus station, Block
36, and our Microdistrict 3. But they only cordoned them off from the outside.
The mob fell upon the soldiers, who started to protect themselves, and the mob
surged into the courtyard with the soldiers after it. They caught several
Azerbaijanis and started beating them with their clubs. One fell down and they
cracked open another's head . . .
-Zinaida: They show Lebanon on television, and the war in Afghanistan--that's just
what it was like. Like in America, how they attack demonstrations with shields
and clubs--that's just how it was in our courtyard.
-Gayane: Don't compare it with America, those were peaceful demonstrations,
but these?!
-Zinaida: But how could it happen here and not off somewhere in America! They
attacked the soldiers, hurled stones at them . . . Then I thought, where's the
tear gas that the Americans use to disperse demonstrators? If they had used
gas on those jackals they all would have scattered.
-Gayane: They would not have scattered. The soldiers had been there since
morning, they didn't bring in fresh troops. They hadn't eaten, they were fine
standing there for about three hours, but then they got tired. They weren't
even allowed to sit down . . . At noon they, the soldiers, attacked them, and
then the tables were turned. The mob went after the soldiers, the guys were
bunched into a group in the center street and covered themselves with their
shields, and the Azerbaijanis surrounded them and threw paving stones at them.
And those guys sat there covering themselves with their shields. And meanwhile
tanks with machine guns were cruising the streets . . . They always say, "Our
children have never seen war." I never even dreamed about it, there was no
need to. But then I thought about those people who had lived through a war. It
was truly horrible . . . The guys were tired, exhausted, some had had their
clubs taken away, others, their shields, they had been beaten, they were
covered in blood . . . so many died! They beat the soldiers with their own
clubs and shields. And those guys stood there and couldn't defend themselves,
they couldn't open fire. They couldn't even defend themselves, let alone us.
It's comical . . .
-Zinaida: What are you saying? How can it be funny?
-Gayane: No, I didn't mean that: How could something like that happen during
our Soviet period? It's painfully embarrassing! And they burned the armored
personnel carriers, too. Someone shouted, "Get away, it's going to blow!"
Everyone scattered away, and the armored personnel carrier exploded. The
soldiers lost their senses. And when they drove the personnel carrier and the
bus at the mob out of rage and fury, they drove right up on the sidewalk.
-Zinaida: The bus that had brought the troops. Only the driver was in it. The
bus ran over three people straight off, I saw it. And two armored personnel
carriers ran over four more. All in one or two minutes. The bus ran over
three, one of the carriers ran over two, and the second, two more. Right on
our street there's a dry cleaners and appliance and watch repair places; one
of the armored personnel carriers went that way, and they say it ran over
several over there, too. But they ran over seven before our eyes. Then the bus
ploughed into a book kiosk.
-Gayane: No, that was a flower place. It was a new booth. He drove straight
into it.
-Zinaida: The driver jumped out and they dragged the vehicle out to the
middle of the road and set it on fire.
-Gayane: And I also saw the troops put a bunch of Azerbaijanis in a bus and
take them in a convoy to Baku. There were many arrests.
-Zinaida: Our neighbor, the one who hid us, couldn't take it, and he told his
wife that we should leave. They were running around in the courtyard looking
for the Armenians. They knew that they were hiding with Azerbaijanis, and they
were saying that they were going to check the Azerbaijani families. Poor
Tayara got scared too, and started to cry; I pleaded with her, I said that I
would remember forever how she saved my children and me, but where could we
go?
-Gayane: She didn't make us leave, she said that she would do anything, but
she was afraid.
-Zinaida: I told Tayara that we would just stay a little longer and that at
night we would return to our apartment. Then her husband came back and said
that a curfew had been imposed. He says, "Zina, you owe us a drink. Gorbachev
announced a curfew." And Bagirov [First Secretary of the Communist Party of
Azerbaijan SSR] was on television, he said that two people had been killed in
Karabagh, but nothing was wrong, automobile windows had been broken, but there
hadn't been any killings. He kept making statements, and there were
Azerbaijani songs and dances. Tayara turned the TV all the way up. When we
learned of the curfew we calmed down, but then a crowd ran into the courtyard
again, a large one. Our neighbor told them that there had been only one
Armenian family here, but they had already killed them all, there was no one
left. We hid in the wardrobe again. and they stuck Diana back under the bed.
-Gayane: Tayara went down to our apartment to see what was happened there, and
found two bandits. They asked her, "What are you doing here" Tayara answered,
"I came to take something for myself." "Take all you want, they're gone now."
-Zinaida: Yes, she had wanted to get something for us, at least some bedding.
She said, "What are you going to do, empty handed, naked, with three children,
nothing remains of your entire apartment." In short, we calmed down, and the
crowd raced off to the other building, the one across from us. I don't know
what went on there.
-Gayane: The curfew had its effect on the gangs, many started to disperse:
they were warned that they would open fire on them. The soldiers didn't know
the city, they couldn't get oriented, they drove up and down the main streets,
but didn't go into the courtyards. When we were at the City Party Committee
they asked people from Sumgait to go with them and show them the way.
-Zinaida: The tanks entered the city on the night of the 29th.
-Gayane: No, Mamma, the tanks had been there earlier, but were near the City
Party Committee, where the Armenians were . . . After midnight, on March 1,
when I had finally gotten to sleep after two sleepless nights, Mamma said,
"Get your things together, they have sent buses for us." As it was we had been
dressed the entire time. Mamma went to check it out . . .and came back for us.
-Zinaida: When I came back for the children Tayara said that Vika was alive
and well, some guys had come and told her that they had hidden her in a safe
place. I both believed it and didn't believe it. We ran out to the tanks. The
Gambarians were there, Roman and Sasha; their father, Shurik, the clarinetist,
was killed, and their mother was there. Sasha came over and asked about the
girls. I was surprised, how did he know my girls? He said that he knew me and
the girls. Our neighbor himself went for Gaya and Diana and it seemed like he
was taking forever so I went after him. Another neighbor came out, Anna
Vasilyevna, a Russian: "Zinochka, my dear, goodbye and good luck." She kissed
Diana. They put us in the bus and the captain gave the order for us to be
taken to the City Party Committee. The bus wouldn't start, so they put us on
another one. It was pouring rain.
-Diana: When they imposed the curfew there were many soldiers on the streets,
and they all had clubs and shields. And when the Azerbaijanis attacked them,
many of the soldiers died. They threw paving stones--huge rocks--at the
soldiers. I saw this myself. The soldiers ran over those Azerbaijanis with the
tanks. The soldiers saw that the Azerbaijanis were doing violence to people
and they ran over them out of rage. We got scared and they hid me under a
mattress and a blanket, and Gaya and Mamma crawled into the wardrobe. And they
were fighting right down there on the street . . . Near the building they were
blowing up buses and tanks, and cars were burning, and there were many dead in
the courtyard. They drove without looking to see if it was a sidewalk or a
street, they just drove, and the ones who didn't manage to get out of the way
were run over by the tanks. And when we left--it was evening, it was already
dark--there were three buses, and one of them had soldiers in it. Mamma ran up
and said, "Get your clothes on, let's go." Gaya was wearing slippers, and I
had on my blue dress, but it was an old one. I was wearing my old jacket, my
old dress, and slippers. And nothing else. Gaya had on a skirt, her Angora
sweater, and slippers. It was raining hard, and there were puddles on the
street. They gave Mamma an old coat because she was wearing a short-sleeved
dress; she put it on and we ran out. We got onto the bus and I was hungry, one
of the soldiers from Yerevan gave me rations and carried me from one bus to
the other in his arms. I gave him the little glass that remained from Vika's
trousseau, and he gave me his telephone number.
-Gayane: In the bus there was a soldier with a shield sitting at every window.
We had to be ready for anything. They took us to the City Party Committee, let
us out, and then took us into the City Party Committee building under armed
guard. It was jammed with people and you couldn't breathe. We asked, "Are
these all us? Armenians?" They answered yes. We were surprised that there were
so many Armenians in Sumgait. All those years we lived there and didn't know
there were so many Armenians, 18,000. We were struck by that, we had never
noticed. Going downstairs the next day I ran into the Secretary of the
Komsomol from Vika's plant, the Khimprom. He said that Vika was alive and
well. When I told Mamma she of course calmed down some more. But you know,
after all that it was hard to believe anything, our faith in everything was
just gone. She didn't believe it completely.
-Zinaida: I didn't believe it because I had heard all kinds of things. When
we arrived at the City Party Committee we heard everything imaginable! It
was the fear of God. I saw many of our acquaintances, they were kissing each
other and asking how their children and homes were. Many people already knew
that there had been a pogrom of our apartment. They had seen the broken
windows. I cried, saying that I didn't know where Vika was. One woman said
that they had taken two of her daughters and that she couldn't find one of
them; the other had been slashed all over. A second said that her husband and
her son had been murdered. That was Nelli Aramian. She lived in Building 6 in
our microdistrict. They killed her husband, Armo, and her son Artur. I heard
so many things like that that I was already starting to lose touch; my
patience had run dry waiting for my daughter. Later an Azerbaijani fellow came
to me and said, Aunt Zina, Vika sent me, she's alive and well and hidden in a
safe place; if you want I'll call her there and you can speak with her. We
went downstairs to the first floor and he called Vika. I spoke with her, heard
the voice of my child. She had managed to survive in that hell. Then I started
begging that Azerbaijani to bring her to the City Party Committee. He tried to
talk me out of it: "I'll bring her wherever you go, don't worry, I've looked
after her better than a brother does a sister." All the same I asked him to
get her. He brought her and I calmed down. On the second day there was a
meeting with Demichev [Member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the
Communist Party of the USSR,] and people started shouting. One shouted, "Give
me my son back!", another yelled, "Where is my daughter?!", a third wanted her
husband . . . Bagirov was there too, and he stood there blinking, not saying
anything.
-Gayane: When Demichev asked where we wanted to go, everyone shouted, "To
Russia!" To be honest we were all frightened of Armenia, there were such wild
rumors it was as though we were in a terrible dream, and no one wanted to go
to Armenia. But he said that he couldn't evacuate 18,000 people to Russia and
that he would meet with everyone individually the next day and speak with
them. And he also said that today he was going to go look at all of our
apartments. On March 3 we went to the military barracks in the village of
Nasosny. We were taken care of marvelously by the military. They sent special
flights of children right from there to Minvody, Yerevan, and Moscow. One
woman left for Moscow with a letter for Gorbachev and Gromyko.
-Zinaida: The worst was truly behind us by then. Everything had passed, but
the pain will remain for our whole lives. It cannot be forgotten. Under no
circumstances should we, our children, or our grandchildren forget. Who will
answer for those who died? For our mothers, sisters, brother, sons and
daughters? Who will bear the responsibility? Who will wash away their blood?
Someone should be made to answer, and severely, so it has an effect on the
people that did with us as they pleased . . . It isn't over yet, now we live
here, in Armenia, protected, but the issue isn't resolved. We would like
to stay in Armenia, in our homeland, so that all the Armenian people will be
united. Then we will be invincible. Armenians won't be scattered throughout
the Soviet Union, about the world, and if we're all together this won't happen
again. As a mother of three children, as a woman, as a sister, I ask Armenians
to be united so that what happened in Sumgait will never happen again. Our
homeland . . . The only request we have is that we be helped in obtaining an
apartment and getting jobs. So that our children can work for the good of
Armenia. If we aren't able to, then let our children do it. And if it's
possible, we'll work for the good of Armenia too. This is the land of our
forefathers. Our grandfathers and great-grandfathers lived here too, it was
only later that people dispersed all over. Like a mother, the land here bore
and reared us. It is our wife, and will protect us, too. I want but one thing:
that our people never see the hardship that our children saw, that your
children here, in Armenia, never see anything like it.
May 28, 1988
Yerevan
- - - reference - - -
[1] _The Sumgait Tragedy; Pogroms against Armenians in Soviet Azerbaijan,
Volume I, Eyewitness Accounts_, edited by Samuel Shahmuradian, forward by
Yelena Bonner, 1990, published by Aristide D. Caratzas, NY, pages 187-203
| 5 |
208 |
Unlikely. Ammunition is not as dangerous when simply burned as it
is when fired from a gun. The brass case is not capable of holding
the pressure generated by burning powder, and will (unless supported
by the walls of a gun barrel or chamber) simply split open. While
this may cause small pieces of brass to fly around, it will not
propel the bullet with any significant velocity.
In fact, it was not uncommon in years past to dispose of old loaded
cartridges by burning them. As long as you were not close enough
to take a piece of flying brass in the eye, you were reasonably safe.
Thus, the detonation of loaded magazines or loose rounds might cause
slight injury but would be unlikely to cause fatal bullet wounds. | 5 |
6,889 | From article <1993May12.111030@IASTATE.EDU>, by jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan):
First of all, this is NOT a strife; this is a massacre of innocent
Moslem poeples by the Christian West.
Since Ottoman lost the control of Balkans, many tens and hundereds
of millions of Muslem peoples (Turks, Albanians, Bosnians, and others)
have been tortured, raped, massacred, and driven out of their homes
by the Cristians of both the region and Europe. Some lucky ones
escaped to relative safety in Turkiye. The remaining others are being
finished now by local Christians, the USA, and the rest of Europe.
The Christian West is maintaining a tight arms ambargo on the Muslem
peoples of Bosnia so they cannot deffend themslves while letting
Christian Serbs and Croats torture, rape, and massacre the innocent
Moslem peoples of Bosnia. | 5 |
4,328 |
Say WHAT? Surrounding the compound with armed men and throwing
grenades isn't a provocation?
You're smoking something not legal in the US. They never rang the
doorbell. Not even the BATF has claimed that they have. This was a
no-knock search.
As to the good reason the BATF has-- the warrant and supporting
affadavit have not been made public.
| 5 |
6,785 |
That doesn't count as getting rid of the press. Getting rid of the press
would mean getting them far enough away so that they wouldn't be able to
see what is going on. | 5 |
179 |
This story was in the LA Times a few months ago.
The Clinton administration is exploring every avenue of
"revenue enhancement", but not all will be chosen. | 5 |
3,648 |
At all times in human history, people have killed and stolen from one
another. If you can find an example of where this hasn't happened in
history, then you have discovered a new phenomenon in nature.
It is pointless asking whether people "should" do this;
they DO do this. It has just evolved that way. Humans have evolved to
have this characteristivc. You can debate whether this should be
particular matter should be left up to the individual or not, but it is
the nature of humans to kill and steal from others and you will not find
a single counterexample (of a society without these types) in nature.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please find a better argument than that's the way it has always been.
Child mortality has always been, yet we find it in our hearts to have
made an attempt to change that. | 5 |
3,826 |
No Cramer it does not. In this instance you are telling porkies to
*yourself* as well as everyone else. Haven't you ever been to a
cafe or restaurant and been absalutely stuffed full of goodies and yet
when one more item, just a little different, with a new texture and
a new taste, was presented you *somehow* found the space for it.
Maybe you haven't, so what? It is a widely reported phenomina and
I reckon the same applies to sex.
| 5 |
4,073 |
How generous Andi. Thanks for your validation. | 5 |
3,965 |
I hope, I hope, that we can begin to involve ourselves in the issues
and concerns related to this peace process. We have differing opinions,
certainly, on these aspects but it is clear that we all share the hope
that "resolution" of the tensions and conflict **will** happen.
As we "run to the defense" of our side, there is no need to constantly
involve ourselves in name-calling. All of us are regularly confused by
the "other's" reactive posting because "they" spend most of the post
applying "labels" and presenting slogans than in just presenting their
honest views. Then...when we "react", we do the same thing.
-------------=--------------------+-----------------------=-----------
Do you, as I do, agree that this (sort) of "peace process" is needed?
What about the particular points mentioned in the article? Is what
Israel is (supposedly) going to propose "good"? Does it go too far?
Not far enough?
If you don't agree that a "peace process" is needed, what is?
| 5 |
3,601 |
Of course. When the catbox begines to smell, simply transfer its
contents into the potted plant in the foyer.
"Why Hillary! Your government smells so... FRESH!"
-- | 5 |
4,254 | (misc.legal trimmed)
Well, that's the obvious conclusion, given your train of logic. The
corollary then is that it must be a waste of time for the party to run
candidates until the educational program has shown some results.
Followups to a.p.l.
-- | 5 |
7,383 | I just read a clari article about how, among the other weapons
the BD had purched, they had two "Barrett 50-caliber armor-piercing
rifles." How the hell do you use an armor-piercing rifle? Run
up to a tank and try to stab it?
Once again, ignorance prevails amongst the media . . . | 5 |
7,040 |
Oops...small mistake. Thanks for mentioning it. I just read on
the.Israel.line that a village just got shelled by terrorists last week
and some children were killed. I guess the terrorists must have gotten by
the security zone. Just think at how much more shelling would be
happening if the security zone weren't there.
L8r...
Steve
-- | 5 |
1,851 |
But aren't you imposing your moral standards against gay people because
you do not want to rent to, or hire, or as you put associate with, (
and I do not know of a law that requires you to associate with gay
people)? It works both ways. | 5 |
5,135 |
..
funny, if Koresh did say that, he was quoting St. Paul. of course,
the early Christians were persecuted too. if Koresh is a loony
because he quotes the Bible, how long is it before mainstream
Christians become the target of the FBI's loving care and attention?
jason
| 5 |
7,368 |
True.
No more risk than smaller stashes unless the stash is somehow confined so
the heat from early ignitions could somehow bulk-heat the remainder.
Two years ago this month my house and office burned. In my office was my
reloading bench. On the top shelf next to the wooden ceiling was
about 100 lbs of smokeless powder, 5 lbs of black powder, several thousand
primers and a couple thousand loaded rounds, primarily in .45ACP, .30-20
and .308. The fire was extinguished before the area containing the
reloading supplies were fully involved. There was about 1/2" of char on
the joists, subsequently removed by sandblasting. Lots of heat in other
words.
None of the powder kegs ignited. One 1lb can of pistol powder ignited.
No explosion, as the can opened at the seam as it was designed to do.
The black powder cans were charred and got so hot the plastic lids
completely melted and ran down inside. The smokless powder was
contained mostly in 8 lb cardboard or metal kegs. The kegs were charred
badly enough that the paper labels burned completely off and in the case
of the metal cans, the plastic lids melted completely away.
Many of the rounds cooked off. They were in close proximity to wood
on all sides so the effects were easy to observe. In most cases with the
rifle ammo, the cartridge cases ruptured in the middle. Many bullets were
found still in the neck. Small shards of brass were lightly stuck into
the wood. Lightly enough that brushing them with a fingertip would usually
dislodge them. Primers generally popped out of the primer pockets.
The .45ACP rounds that cooked off left empty cases and bullets laying around.
No dents were observed above the storage area, indicating the bullets
left the cases slowly enough not to be a hazard.
Ordinary small arms ammo is NOT a hazard when cooking off regardless
of what the FBI says.
John
| 5 |
5,565 |
I'd have to agree with you there Joe. | 5 |
5,380 | ABOLISH CULTS! | 5 |
2,334 |
As does the idea that a CS gas canister can get hot enough to ignite dry
baled hay.
| 5 |
3,118 | :
: >You might -- except that gay men are MUCH more promiscuous than
: >straight men -- which shows how damaged and screwed up gay men are.
:
: Okay Claytoon, let us say that hypothetically I agree with you that
: gay men are much more promiscuous than straight men. Why does
: this indicate they are screwed up people?
:
: BTW - It occurs to me that since, in my experience, men are much more
: interested in sex than women and want to have sex much earlier
: in a relationship than women do, that homosexuals would have
: sex more often simply becuase their partner is of a like mind.
: i.e. heterosexual men would be more promiscuous if they could.
It's my observation that women are more likely to me more strongly
indoctronated into now wanting sex that are men.
Also there are definite double standards for men and women who are
promiscuous.
Could there also be a factor of communication being more direct in
homosexual relationships and culture.
-- | 5 |
221 |
What a load of crap ! The BDs had absolutely NO RIGHT to fire
upon the BATF agents. If they didn't know who they were at
first, then they should have surrendered immediately when they
did realize who they were dealing with. Little groups of loonies
do not get to decide just what laws they will obey or disobey
or what sorts of warrants are justified. Like the rest of us,
they get their say at the voting booth and if their personal
wants are not backed by the majority of voters, then too bad.
If they wanted to keep automatic weapons, then they could apply
for the proper permits. If they had a problem with the warrant
then they get to argue that in court. In no event do they get
to establish their own little nation inside our own and pretend
that our laws and law-enforcement personel have no jurisdiction
within their borders. You live on US territory, you live by
US laws - period. (unless you are a congressman)
Sure, the situation was handled badly by both the BATF and
the FBI. It would have been all so easy to detain Koresh and
his core members while they were out in the streets of Waco.
The BATF, threatened with budget cuts, was trying for a
propaganda coup ... and dragging the press along for the big
commando-style assault is proof of that. They should be
roasted for both their imcompetance and their mindset. On the
other hand, they DID have the legal right to do what they did.
Once the attack was begun, they should have pressed on and
finished it rather than let an interminable situation like that
take root. | 5 |
6,840 |
Since your criminal grandparents ruthlessly exterminated more than
600,000 Kurds between 1914 and 1916 in Eastern Anatolia. Referring to
notes from the personal diary of Russian General L. Odishe Liyetze on
the Turkish front, he wrote,
"On the nights 11-12 March, 1918 alone Armenian butchers
bayoneted and axed to death 3000 Muslims in areas surrounding
Erzincan. These barbars threw their victims into pits, most
likely dug according to their sinister plans to extinguish
Muslims, in groups of 80. My adjutant counted and unearthed
200 such pits. This is an act against our world of civilization."
On March 12, 1918 Lieut-colonel Griyaznof wrote (from an official
Russian account of the Turkish genocide),
"Roads leading to villages were littered with bayoneted torsos,
dismembered joints and carved out organs of Muslim peasants...
alas! mainly of women and children."
Source: Doc. Dr. Azmi Suslu, "Russian View on the Atrocities Committed
by the Armenians Against the Turks," Ankara Universitesi, Ankara,
1987, pp. 45-53.
"Document No: 77," Archive No: 1-2, Cabin No: 10, Drawer
No: 4, File No: 410, Section No: 1578, Contents No: 1-12, 1-18.
(Acting Commander of Erzurum and Deveboynu regions and Commander
of the Second Erzurum Artillery Regiment Prisoner of War,
Lieutenant Colonel Toverdodleyov)
"The things I have heard and seen during the two months, until the
liberation of Erzurum by the Turks, have surpassed all the
allegations concerning the vicious, degenerate characteristic of
the Armenians. During the Russian occupation of Erzurum, no Armenian
was permitted to approach the city and its environs.
While the Commander of the First Army Corps, General Kaltiyin remained
in power, troops including Armenian enlisted men, were not sent to the
area. When the security measures were lifted, the Armenians began to
attack Erzurum and its surroundings. Following the attacks came the
plundering of the houses in the city and the villages and the murder
of the owners of these houses...Plundering was widely committed by
the soldiers. This plunder was mainly committed by Armenian soldiers
who had remained in the rear during the war.
One day, while passing through the streets on horseback, a group of
soldiers including an Armenian soldier began to drag two old men of
seventy years in a certain direction. The roads were covered with mud,
and these people were dragging the two helpless Turks through the mud
and dirt...
It was understood later that all these were nothing but tricks and
traps. The Turks who joined the gendarmarie soon changed their minds
and withdrew. The reason was that most of the Turks who were on night
patrol did not return, and no one knew what had happened to them. The
Turks who had been sent outside the city for labour began to disappear
also. Finally, the Court Martial which had been established for the
trials of murderers and plunderers, began to liquidate itself for
fear that they themselves would be punished. The incidents of murder
and rape, which had decreased, began to occur more frequently.
Sometime in January and February, a leading Turkish citizen Haci Bekir
Efendi from Erzurum, was killed one night at his home. The Commander
in Chief (Odiselidge) gave orders to find murderers within three days.
The Commander in Chief has bitterly reminded the Armenian intellectuals
that disobedience among the Armenian enlisted men had reached its
highest point, that they had insulted and robbed the people and half
of the Turks sent outside the city had not returned.
...We learnt the details this incident from the Commander-in-Chief,
Odishelidge. They were as follows:
The killings were organized by the doctors and the employers, and the
act of killing was committed solely by the Armenian renegades...
More than eight hundred unarmed and defenceless Turks have been
killed in Erzincan. Large holes were dug and the defenceless
Turks were slaughtered like animals next to the holes. Later, the
murdered Turks were thrown into the holes. The Armenian who stood
near the hole would say when the hole was filled with the corpses:
'Seventy dead bodies, well, this hole can take ten more.' Thus ten
more Turks would be cut into pieces, thrown into the hole, and when
the hole was full it would be covered over with soil.
The Armenians responsible for the act of murdering would frequently
fill a house with eighty Turks, and cut their heads off one by one.
Following the Erzincan massacre, the Armenians began to withdraw
towards Erzurum... The Armenian renegades among those who withdrew
to Erzurum from Erzincan raided the Moslem villages on the road, and
destroyed the entire population, together with the villages.
During the transportation of the cannons, ammunition and the carriages
that were outside the war area, certain people were hired among the
Kurdish population to conduct the horse carriages. While the travellers
were passing through Erzurum, the Armenians took advantage of the time
when the Russian soldiers were in their dwellings and began to kill
the Kurds they had hired. When the Russian soldiers heard the cries
of the dying Kurds, they attempted to help them. However, the
Armenians threatened the Russian soldiers by vowing that they would
have the same fate if they intervened, and thus prevented them from
acting. All these terrifying acts of slaughter were committed with
hatred and loathing.
Lieutenant Medivani from the Russian Army described an incident that
he witnessed in Erzurum as follows: An Armenian had shot a Kurd. The
Kurd fell down but did not die. The Armenian attempted to force the
stick in his hand into the mouth of the dying Kurd. However, since
the Kurd had firmly closed his jaws in his agony, the Armenian failed
in his attempt. Having seen this, the Armenian ripped open the abdomen
of the Kurd, disembowelled him, and finally killed him by stamping
him with the iron heel of his boot.
Odishelidge himself told us that all the Turks who could not escape
from the village of Ilica were killed. Their heads had been cut off
by axes. He also told us that he had seen thousands of murdered
children. Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov, who passed through the village
of Ilica, three weeks after the massacre told us the following:
There were thousands of dead bodies hacked to pieces, on the roads.
Every Armenian who happened to pass through these roads, cursed and
spat on the corpses. In the courtyard of a mosque which was about
25x30 meter square, dead bodies were piled to a height of 140
centimeters. Among these corpses were men and women of every age,
children and old people. The women's bodies had obvious marks of
rape. The genitals of many girls were filled with gun-powder.
A few educated Armenian girls, who worked as telephone operators
for the Armenian troops were called by Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov
to the courtyard of the mosque and he bitterly told them to be
proud of what the Armenians had done. To the lieutenant colonel's
disgusted amazement, the Armenian girls started to laugh and giggle,
instead of being horrified. The lieutenant colonel had severely
reprimanded those girls for their indecent behaviour. When he told
the girls that the Armenians, including women, were generally more
licentious than even the wildest animals, and that their indecent
and shameful laughter was the most obvious evidence of their inhumanity
and barbarity, before a scene that appalled even veteran soldiers,
the Armenian girls finally remembered their sense of shame and
claimed they had laughed because they were nervous.
An Armenian contractor at the Alaca Communication zone command
narrated the following incident which took place on February 20:
The Armenians had nailed a Turkish women to the wall. They had cut
out the women's heart and placed the heart on top of her head.
The great massacre in Erzurum began on February 7... The enlisted men
of the artillery division caught and stripped 270 people. Then they
took these people into the bath to satisfy their lusts. 100 people
among this group were able to save their lives as the result of
my decisive attempts. The others, the Armenians claimed, were
released when they learnt that I understood what was going on.
Among those who organized this treacherous act was the envoy to the
Armenian officers, Karagodaviev. Today, some Turks were murdered
on the streets.
On February 12, some Armenians have shot more than ten innocent
Moslems. The Russian soldiers who attempted to save these people were
threatened with death. Meanwhile I imprisoned an Armenian for
murdering an innocent Turk.
When an Armenian officer told an Armenian murderer that he would
be hanged for his crime, the killer shouted furiously: 'How dare
you hang an Armenian for killing a Turk?' In Erzurum, the
Armenians burned down the Turkish market. On February 17, I heard
that the entire population of Tepekoy village, situated within
the artillery area, had been totally annihilated. On the same
day when Antranik entered Erzurum, I reported the massacre to
him, and asked him to track down the perpetrators of this horrible
act. However no result was achieved.
In the villages whose inhabitants had been massacred, there was a
natural silence. On the night of 26/27 February, the Armenians deceived
the Russians, perpetrated a massacre and escaped for fear of the
Turkish soldiers. Later, it was understood that this massacre had
been based upon a method organized and planned in a circular.
The population had been herded in a certain place and then killed
one by one. The number of murders committed on that night reached
three thousand. It was the Armenians who bragged to about the details
of the massacre. The Armenians fighting against the Turkish soldiers
were so few in number and so cowardly that they could not even
withstand the Turkish soldiers who consisted of only five hundred
people and two cannons, for one night, and ran away. The leading
Armenians of the community could have prevented this massacre.
However, the Armenian intellectuals had shared the same ideas with
the renegades in this massacre, just as in all the others. The lower
classes within the Armenian community have always obeyed the orders
of the leading Armenian figures and commanders.
I do not like to give the impression that all Armenian intellectuals
were accessories to these murders. No, for there were people who
opposed the Armenians for such actions, since they understood that
it would yield no result. However, such people were only a minority.
Furthermore, such people were considered as traitors to the Armenian
cause. Some have seemingly opposed the Armenian murders but have
supported the massacres secretly. Some, on the other hand, preferred
to remain silent. There were certain others, who, when accused by
the Russians of infamy, would say the following: 'You are Russians.
You can never understand the Armenian cause.' The Armenians had a
conscience. They would commit massacres and then would flee in fear
of the Turkish soldiers.
The incidents that occurred only recently clearly manifest the real
nature of the Armenian ideology. Nothing which is already done can
be undone."
Serdar Argic | 5 |
2,764 | Yedi'ot Ahronot, April 9, 1993. Excerpt.
EACH ONE AND HIS OWN NEVO*
(* A reference to General Azri'el Nevo, Shamir's Military Secretary.
Irrelevant to this excerpt.)
By Nahum Barne'a
. . .
In mid '91 SHABAK found itself in the center of another storm [...].
A year and a half earlier, Khaled Sheikh Ali, 27, a member of the
Islamic Jihad, died at the SHABAK installation in Gaza prison. The
two SHABAK interrogators who were responsible for his death were put
on trial. In September '91 the Supreme Court rejected their appeal and
sentenced them to 6 months in prison. As far as is known, this was
the first time in Israel's history that SHABAK operatives were sent to
prison. The Supreme Court unanimously rejected the warning by the
director of SHABAK that the sentence will be detrimental the
effectiveness of other interrogators. [...] The judges in the case
were [...] Barak, Goldberg, and Matza.
When they realized that they were on their own, the interrogators
agreed to talk. Deputy State Attorney Rachel Sukkar[sp?] was placed
in charge of investigating the affair. She [...] questioned the
directors of all SHABAK divisions. She investigated only the matter
of the death in Gaza prison. She discovered that not only torture,
but also "the culture of lies", which Judge Landau had described in
his report of two years before, were still very much in existence.
Nothing had changed.
The report was classified and was seen by only some ten people, among
them the Prime Minister, the people at the top of the judicial system
and Judge Landau. The director of SHABAK claimed that he did not
know. After all, they were dealing only with a single jail and with
low ranking people. The system bit the bullet and accepted the
explanation. One of SHABAK's high-ranking officials was transfered
from his very high position to a less high position.
. . .
["The culture of lies" referred to above is the SHABAK interrogators'
policy of lying in court when denying detainees claims that they were
tortured in the course of interrogation. The Landau commission sought
to correct this problem by legalizing a list of torture methods --
thus eliminating the fear that a detainee might be released if those
methods were used to extract a confession. The fact that the need to
lie still persists would seem to indicate that SHABAK is not sticking
to the "approved" torture methods. -- Yigal] | 5 |
7,422 |
This is the first I hear that Koresh refused to release
someone. In fact, a lot of people, including children, came out
during the stand-off.
How do you know Koresh killed his followers? The FBI said
he had had no such plans (and they had the place bugged), Koresh's
attorney said the same thing, and the survivors claimed that the
fire was started by goverment agents.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's. | 5 |
86 |
You forgot the part about encasing it in a small shaped charge so that
if anyone tries to tamper with it, it explodes and kills you.
Oh, and the shaped charge can be set off by remote control...but only
if you get out of line. Properly patriotic citizens have nothing to fear. | 5 |
130 |
Oh, you mean something like moving the press back to a single
location, 2 miles away from the "compound"? The press was allowing
into foxholes in Vietnam, but it's "too dangerous" to allow them near
the Branch Davidians?... There's something skewed about the logic here.
--
Charles Scripter * cescript@phy.mtu.edu
Dept of Physics, Michigan Tech, Houghton, MI 49931 | 5 |
6,592 |
All Muslims knew that the whole thing was set up to destroy Iraq, not
to "Liberate Kuwait", The people who were killed by the invasion are
more (many many more), than the ones that were killed by the Iraqis
in their smaller invasion. I lived in the west, and I have seen how
your media prepared you (helpless naive Americans) for a war against
Iraq even before the artificial conflict between Iraq and Kuwait that
led to the invasion, as the CIA correctly predicted (and pretended to
be surprised not to know).
It just happened that Saddam was so predictible and so arrogant and stupid.
What would I have done: Most Muslims would choose 300 dead Kuwaitis over
200,000 dead Iraqis and 1000 dead Kuwaitis. The first case would happen
if no western intervention happened, and the second case was a direct
or indirect result of western envolvement.
Human rights in Kuwait? what about human rights in Iraq? why the west
gave Saddam a green light to slaughter his own people? I will give my
reason: because the rich Kuwaitis do not mind to be your salves, so
they deserve some democracy, but Iraqis might not, so they don't.
As simple as that, whether or not you want to admit it.
Not necessarily the best solution, my view of an Islamic state (and
that of Turabi that your media made you hate) includes all the benefits
of a secular state minus the injustices. Did you ever read a book by
Rashid Al-Ghannoushi (Tunisia), Hassan Turabi (Sudan)? You only know
about them from your Self-censured, self-controlled media.
If they make this kind of campaign against such a moderate thinker as
Turabi is, and keep quite about such an extremist Muslim scholar as Bin
Bez of Saudi Arabia is, it just does not encourage any moderation in
our ARab world.
No it was not that, it was just some irrelevent stuff that I took out
to go around the copyright (;-))
I ceased to take the Newyork times seriously. In issues concerning Islam
it has become one of the biggest enemies (although less than the other
NewYork daily since Mortimer took it over). It lies, selects facts that
fits its agenda and even prints racist and open anti-Muslim editorials.
What they claimed in that articles is a bunch of lies because while
the selected facts are true about some of those persons, the other members
are actually defence lawyers and University science professors who wanted
to fight corruption, uncover atrocities against opposition activists and
Shia minority, and generally increase awareness about the rights of all
citizens. The only thing that is common between those people is their concern
for the deterioration of human rights since the Saudi clan took a green
light from AMerica (after the gulf) to do whatever is necessary to stay
in power.
Do you know that ALL OF THE SAUDI ULEMA have been taught the same things?
the ones in the official Iftaa are as conservative as the ones that are
opposing it. SOme of the members of the human rights committe are MORE
PRO-WOMEN and wanted to defend them, and that is precisely one reason that
Bin Bez's Fatwah implied for the "Illegality " of this committee
and for his claim that it represents "Outside interests"
There is a human rights issue in Saudi ARabia, and YOU and NY times chose
to ignore the main issue and select some of the members of that committee
and actually defend the actions done against them (including banning them
from their Jobs.
What a hypocricy. I am not surprised really, THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME.
The official Ulema are the most extremist anti-women meat-heads in Saudi
Arabia, the west continues on its campaign to discredit itself in the
Muslim community, by supporting them. Well after Bosnia, I guess it has
ZERO credibility to begin with, so what the heck. | 5 |
482 |
At Algor's insistance, the shaped charge will automatically detonate after
thirty years, a la "Logan's Run," in order to maintain population control.
| 5 |
2,687 | Do you have a problem with the language? I said
everyone suffered emotionally because they sympathyzed with the
victims of Holocaust. I wasn't implying that anyone suffered
more than the actual victims. Neither was I implying any
wrongdoing on the part of the Jews as the cause for the
Holocaust. What is wrong with you guys? Regardless of what one
says you keep hearing what you want to hear.
| 5 |
2,534 |
There is something terribly wrong, however, with a culture which
condemns, attacks, and all too often kills any of its members who
attempt to get an education. My mother is an elementary school
teacher, and she tells me that she and her african american collegues
are frustrated to tears by the fact that any african american child who
attempts to do well in school and get an education is accused by
his/her peers of "trying to be white", and is beaten, bullied, and
tormented by them. It goes beyond each passing grade on a test earning
a beating. In my mother's school, one of the most promising young
students, who happened to be african american, had her throat cut by
one of these young thugs.
Nobody who buys into such a culture has any hope of being anything but
poor and/or a thug and/or dead, regardless of their color.
What has to be changed is the culture. If that culture can't be
changed, then those african-american kids who are willing to separate
from it *must* be separated from it and the murderous thugs of whatever
color. Otherwise, future bright young african american girls who
wanted to be doctors will end up dead on the school bus. | 5 |
5,287 |
Jefferson was not the author of the Bill of Rights. My history
books aren't here, but Jefferson might have been in the group
that did not think that enumerating rights was necessary.
Cheers,
Steve | 5 |
5,526 |
pete zakel is right, we don't need to worry about capitalization
rules. after all, the punctuation gives all the necessary information
about the sentence structure. why should anyone worry about whether the
text is as close to the original as possible. (sarcasm intended).
Then you didn't understand my grumble... Again, I said to get a
CORRECT version of the Constitution. The first indicator that
something is wrong (i.e. the copy has been modernized) is the modern
capitalization rules. The next thing to go is the spelling, and then
I've even seen versions where the GRAMMAR was modernized (oh, but
don't worry, modernizing the grammar won't change the meaning of the
text, right?... ;-) [p.s. I have found about 10 *different* versions
of the Constitution on the network; And accuracy DOES matter...]
--
Charles Scripter * cescript@phy.mtu.edu
Dept of Physics, Michigan Tech, Houghton, MI 49931 | 5 |
1,320 |
NOT an accurate analogy. David Koresh did not take a bunch of
hostages and then call the BATF with a ransom note. You make
it sound as if the BATF showed up to save those children in the
first place. I have some interesting news for youBATF
has absolutely NO jurisdiction in child abuse cases.
It seems to me that the BATF showed up, took the Davidians hostage.
Then the FBI showed up, negotiated to have a few of the hostages
released, but were unable to keep the BATF from killing the rest
of the poor people trapped inside the compound.
Steve Martin
Steve_Martin@msmgate.mrg.uswest.com | 5 |
3,717 |
Wow, hang on a second. The libertarian party stands for personal freedom,
lassez-faire economics and minimal government. Whoever is describing the
self as a Libertarian (maybe you were refering to the posters who call
themselves civil libertarians) are not talking at all about Libertarian
philosophy. | 5 |
4,422 | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Joachim
I have restrained from involvement in flame wars. These comments however make
me long for the days when I was a flame warrior. I would hope that you would
refrain from such idiotic slander.
Winslow (formerly of Madison)
P.S. I might have to drop the formerly and become the "old" Winslow of Madison. | 5 |
6,303 |
Murderous, huh? Yeah, there was all sorts of carnage going on there in
the 60 YEARS they were there -- BEFORE the government assaulted them.
Oh, I forgot -- you probably consider self-defense as murder.
Damn right. This is not a partisan thing; it's about individual
liberties -- the right of a citizen to be left the hell alone.
That's another indication that you don't understand the issue.
"Our appropriations are coming up soon. We need a good PR boost. Let's
find a socially unpopular group who happen to have a lot of guns, go in
like gangbusters, be heros, and have the local media get it all on video
tape. Then we won't have to worry about our budget until next year."
Why don't you knit one to match his jogging outfit?
-- | 5 |
81 |
I have indeed heard of Pythagoras, but I don't know that he was ever
disparaged as a "bean eater". In the American Southwest and West
(e.g., Texas, California, Colorado), the term "bean eater" is
sometimes used as a slur against those of Hispanic heritage (generally
Mexicans, in those parts) -- much like how the Irish in the Northeast
are perceived (by some) as voracious beer guzzlers. | 5 |
7,396 | From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Help Palestinian education
HOW TO HELP PALESTINIAN EDUCATION
(From 'Educational Network', No. 11, April 1993,
publ. by Ramallah Friends Schools, P.O.Box 66,
Ramallah, West Bank, via Israel
Tel. 972-2-956230, Fax. 972-2-956231)
Many of our readers have written to us asking how
individuals and organizations can help Palestinian
education. We have compiled a list of suggestions to guide
you. If you are interested in pursuing one or more of
these suggested activities, the Educational Network can
aid you by /coordinating/ the initial contacts, /following
up/, and /providing any other support/ you may need.
1. Link your teachers' union with a teachers' union here
--- linkage should be based on a shared pedagogical
enterprise.
2. Get your union to actively support the right of
Palestinian teachers in the Occupied Territories to form
unions:
a. through the International Labor Organization (if your
union is a member)
b. contacting other international unions which have
supported our right to form a union -- we can supply
names and addresses.
3. Establish a SCHOLARSHIP FUND for one or more
Palestinian students to study at a Palestinian university
or school -- or establish a scholarship fund for a
Palestinian student or teacher to study at a university
abroad.
4. Reproduce and publish information about Palestinian
education:
a. for your union membership;
b. for the outside community.
The Educational Network can supply up-to-date
information and statistics.
5. Send delegations of teachers to visit the Occupied
Territories during periods when our schools are in
session.
The Network can arrange an itinerary, make hotel and
local travel arrangements, and provide a guide for the
visit.
6. Sponsor Palestinian teachers to visit your city for an
educational tour:
a. to see schools and speak with educators in order to
learn about progressive pedagogical ideas and
experiences;
b. to speak about the conditions of Palestinian
education.
The Network will coordinate from Palestine.
7. Establish teacher-exchange programs for one year in
which a Palestinian teacher from a private school teaches
at a public or private school abroad while a teacher from
that school spends a year in a Palestinian private school.
8. Send an experienced educator to the Occupied
Territories to give workshops (all-day workshops or two-
day workshops) on innovative teaching techniques.
The Network will pay for the person's food, lodging, and
travel while in Palestine, and will serve as guide.
9. Set up a pen-pal program with a Palestinian school in
either English or French.
10. Set up a sister-school program with a Palestinian
school which would actively involve teachers as well as
students at both schools -- a great tool for building
international understanding and mutual sensitivity.
11. Keep the Educational Network informed about
important educational conferences so that we can send a
Palestinian teacher to attend.
12. Send to the Educational Network articles or other
writings or books dealing with innovative approaches and
ideas in the field of education so that we can then
disseminate the information locally. | 5 |
6,942 |
Back your statments with proof, or shut up.
Again, back your statements or shut up.
Hmm... Tell me, did you go to the Mickey Mouse school of logic? You have
just stated that there are not many homosexuals as Kinsey reported in his
survey (and the surveys of the Kinsey Institute since). Then you say that
the reason many young people are promiscuous is because homosexuals form
a large part of that group, or there are some homosexuals whose lives
consist of having sex, with no gaps for eating &c. Using *your* logic
it would seem to suggest that on average gay men have about 2000 partners each
a week! Try to think through your arguments carefully. Or then again, not,
because I like to laugh every now and then.
Hence the argument cannot be resolved using this data. Next point, please.
This depends on the premise that there are only three types of behaviour: gay, bi
and hetero. This has yet to be proved. See an earlier post about the Kinsey
Institute of grading. This, although rough, seems more logical. Also you use
"this would show", defining a fact and not an assumption. Again, back your
statements or shut up.
| 5 |
6,055 |
[re McElwaine]
I just heard this week that he has started on COMPUSERVE flying models
forum now. Sigh.
-- | 5 |
1,421 |
Lucky they brought the situation to a prompt resolution before they had to
turn things over to the amateurs.
God help us all.
-- | 5 |
1,545 |
Jason - I've heard the people who are talking about this dismissed as
conspiracy nuts, but nobody seems to be talking about a conspiracy, at
least at the beginning. There were a lot of bad decisions that went into
this tragedy, and some people may now be taking some serious evasive
action to avoid being held responsible for the unexpected results of
those bad decisions. Actually, the only ones I see that are tied into
a conspiracy theory are the ones raving about deranged cultists with
stockpiles of weapons and suicide pacts.
I think there are a lot of us that have been following this pretty closely
from the beginning, and we woud probably agree that this tragedy was more
the result of stupidity than malice.
| 5 |
5,288 | From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Arab H.R. Assoc.,Nazareth
The Arab Association for Human Rights
P.O. Box 215
Nazareth, 16101 Israel
Phone (972)-6-561923
Fax (972)-6-564934
The Arab Association for Human Rights (HRA) was
formed in 1988 to address discriminatory practices and
human rights abuses by Israel against its Palestinian
citizens.
It is a unique association concerned with the civil,
political, economic, social and cultural rights of the
Palestinian national minority in Israel. Among the issues
of concern are land confiscation, education, prison
conditions, unemployment, torture and the unequal
allocation of Israel's resources.
Today there are around 800,000 Palestinian Arabs living
within the Green line (the pre-1967 borders of Israel),
constituting 18% of Israel's citizens. For them it is an
empty citizenship in a system geared exclusively for the
needs of the Jewish population. Legally and practically,
Israel has proclaimed itself a Jewish state and early
promises of equality for non-Jewish citizens have not
been fulfilled. This is apparent in many areas strongly
affecting the Palestinian national minority.
Most Arab agricultural land has been confiscated since
1948. The Arab sector is vastly underfunded and does
not receive a fair share of state resources. On a day-to-
day level, Palestinians face discrimination in many
different forms and find it is a struggle to get permission
to build a house, start a business, find a job or educate
their children.
ACTIVITIES | 5 |
2,033 |
That has not been demonstrated. Had he come to trial, there was a very real
possibility that Koresh would have gotten an acquittal on grounds of self-
defense. All survivors of the debacle have sworn that the BATF shot first.
They "rang the doorbell" using a concussion grenade! And if the bloody
warrants were "legal" then why were they _sealed_ after the fight started?
And if Koresh had declared himself a "private state" and was just daring the
gov't to go in, then why did he surrender last year to a local sheriff who
served a warrant _for_his_arrest_ (as opposed to the BATF search warrant,
which did not include arrest unless violations were found) by just calling
him up to tell him and then going out to collect him with his squad car?
That doesn't sound like a dictator to me, it sounds like someone who knows
he has a court battle. Things might have gone very differently if the BATF
_had_ "rung the doorbell".
This is stupid. That is no paranoid assertion, it is testamony from surviving
witnesses, and the BATF _has_ no tanks, nor am I aware of either the BATF _or_
the FBI using any until yesterday. When they use maximum force they do just
what they did that first day that got four officers killed.
"Underarmed"? You flabberghast me, they were loaded for bear and every
picture shows them wearing bullet-proof vests! They were using concussion
grenades and full-auto weapons, what was missing low-yield tac-nukes? This
is a transparent attempt to retcon a justification for the ridiculous amount
of force used, both initially and yesterday. You should be ashamed.
They _had_ a sure-fire method: keep them bottled up and talk them to death or
surrender without giving him justification for some looney-tune religious
stunt.
Phil, I've been reading your postings for months and I'm convinced that you
will back anything, no matter how damaging it may be to yours or anyone
else's rights if you think it will hurt people you don't like. It's people
with that attitude that set up the preconditions for the Holocaust, a process
that is in place _now_ in this country, even if the tattered, pitiful remains
of the Constitution is slowing its progress. This isn't a Libertarian issue,
others may argue that line, but from a strictly Constitutional view of a
democratic gov't, what the FBI and BATF did was wrong, wrong, wrong, even if
their _reasons_ for trying to arrest Koresh were 100% right. _Anything_ that
leads to the deaths of 17 children, if nothing else touches your stoney
heart, is _wrong_ no matter who pushed the button. For God's sake, man, get
your morality back.
Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com) No, I don't speak for Cabletron. Need you ask? | 5 |
3,215 |
About 2 years ago, there was a lot of noise about a Church in the Old
City of Jerusalem being taken over by a Jewish group. In fact, the
building in question was a dormitory that belonged to a church and was
not physically connected to any church. It had been leased to a
Palestinean Arab for 99 years and a Jewish group sub-leased it from
him. The church that owned the building disapproved and legal action
was started to revoke the sub-lease. The media, however, made it look
like Jewish vigilantes were stealing Church property in Jerusalem by
force.
The damage has already been done by the press in the above case. It
is not surprising by now, of course, that many "decent people" regard
the press "with utmost suspicion".
You appear to be referring to Moshe Dayan. How do you know that the
"evicted Jordanians" were not provided with something else? In fact,
this thread indicates that they were squatters on land that they did
not own but received compensation for their loss, anyways! Woe to
Jews when they feel that recovering land that has been taken from them
by force (with "ethnic cleansing" of any remaining Jews) is
"disgusting and shameful".
| 5 |
5,333 |
In the videos of the original BATF attack on the BD church, did anyone
happen to see BATF agents on the highest structure, where Koresh's
room was? I don't recall seeing BATF agents higher than the roof of the
lowest structures, so I made an assumption that BATF helos did the
firing down into the tower. Any other info on how the rounds came
through the roof?
| 5 |
5,443 | [ ... ] | 5 |
4,213 | Of course you do. You married it a while ago, remember?
| 5 |
5,495 | Try this one, a favorite around here:
Bureau of Assholes, Tightwads, and Facists.
And remember, they were created by the Infernal Revenue Code.
--msa
| 5 |
877 | [Posting the text of H.R. 893 ...]
[ ... ]
[page break]
OB ill-wind-and-all-that: with Bill the Prez in there, at least the
anti-gunners are out of the closet. The provision that any existing
so-called "assault weapons" die with their current owners was worked
into H.R. 3371 (102nd Congress bill number) a couple of years ago,
in a complicated way that the anti's claimed was a "drafting error."
Can't call 'em "lying bastards" any longer. (Not all the time ... :-) | 5 |
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