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6,267 |
Timbo, Israel has not been recognized as a state by the Arabs, except for
Egypt, of course. Isn't that a gesture? What has Israel offered?
Well, it has been calling for peace talks for 45 years, asked for
economic relations, and asked for diplomatic ties. What else is there?
Would you have Israel sacrifice its security? Nay, I think not. | 5 |
438 | The honest answer to your question about Arabs who were expelled
from Jaffa, and/or who fled Jaffa, or anywhere else in Israel, having
the right to return is: Yes, unfortunately, they have the right to
return. They may apply for citizenship like any other non-Israeli and
then go to >Jaffa and try to buy their house back from the Jews who now
own it.
And now a question and answer for you: Can the Jews who were
born and raised in Hebron, or their descendants go back to THEIR homes
in Hebron? The answer is: absolutely NOT, because they were almost all
murdered by their Arab neighbors - the "palestinians".
Now, do I think the Arabs should be allowed to even visit
"their" homes in Jaffa? Hell, no. Bring back the Jews of Hebron, Petah
Tikva, Jerusalem, Safed, etc. Then, perhaps I would be in favor of Arabs
returning to their Jaffa homes. However, seeing as no Arab has yet been
able to bring people back from the dead, I'd say that's out.
With all the hope in the world,
Nissan Ratzlav-Katz | 5 |
552 |
I believe that this is not quite correct. My understanding is that LDS is
engaged on a project to "convert" the souls of deceased persons of other
religions, in order to spare them from damnation and gain them entrance into
heaven. To this end, the Church has compiled extensive genaeological records, so
that they will know the names of people to convert. A long article in the New
Yorker a few years ago described the LDS research methods in some detail (for
example, some researchers pay visits to local native storytellers to learn the
names of people long dead). This sounds like just the sort of lie that would be
made up about any unusual religion, but the New Yorker story convinced me that
there is some truth to it (the New Yorker used to do extensive fact-checking, and
the story was quite detailed). | 5 |
82 | In September 1990, our medical reserve unit was sent to the KETZIOT
prison camp to take care of Arab prisoner who were housed in 5
sections of 1500 prisoners each, with each section subdivided in
5 units housing 300 prisoners. The prisoners would "communicate"
with other distant sections (sometimes 50-100 yards away) by
taking stones, tying written notes to the stones, and throwing
them with incredible precision to other sections. I should have
been a recruiter for the Red Sox :-) There were at least three
prisoners who could have been outstanding pitchers. | 5 |
5,001 | It looks like Ben Baz's mind and heart are also blind, not only his eyes.
I used to respect him, today I lost the minimal amount of respect that
I struggled to keep for him.
To All Muslim netters: This is the same guy who gave a "Fatwah" that
Saudi Arabia can be used by the United Ststes to attack Iraq . That
Fatwah is as legitimate as this one. With that kind of "Clergy", it might
be an Islamic duty to separate religion and politics, if religion
means "official Clergy".
| 5 |
5,655 |
For those of you still unsure whether this is satire, the jury is still out:
"Also yesterday, even though the compound no longer exists, the
US attorney's office here released formerly sealed documents,
including a search warrant and related affidavits, that authorities
planned to use when the siege was over.
"These documents did not include the original warrants the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms had in late February, which to this
day have never been released.
"...one of the documents indicated the agency planned to seek
samples of Koresh's handwriting not only to verify that he had
signed for some gun purchases, but also that he espoused
'certain doctrines hostile to law enforcement and particularly
the ATF.'"
So, one of the charges against Koresh seems to be Contempt of Cop -- he
expressed hostility to the BATF. That chilly feeling in your gonads is
perfectly normal, folks... it should go away in about 51 days.
The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
That should save them the trouble of subpoena-ing samples. Heavens knows
I want to cooperate fully, meinherren.
-- | 5 |
5,779 |
This was not stated nor implied. Try asking.
This is laughable. Licenses? Right. So then I would need a
license to possess chlorine gas? It is a weapons grade poison.
Would I be breaking the law then if I were to, say, pour Chlorox
on the spot where my cat pissed on the floor? The reaction of
ammonia and bleach liberates pure chlorine gas. Do I go to jail
for this? Why or why not?
Would I need a license to possess other chemical agents? What about
nicotine? Deadly poison, and rather fast acting. Must I now become
licensed to posess tobacco? And what about nicotine sulphate, an even
deadlier poison? Will I need a license to possess this type of
insecticide? What about Raid(tm)? Black Flag? Gasoline? Benzene?
Hydrazine (a violent poison)?
Will I go to jail for possessing a can of tomatoes that went bad with
botulinus?
What about my mom & pop QC lab where I use cyanogen bromide (mustard
gas) to do lot analysis on certain non-prescription pharmaceuticals?
What if I wish to use potassium cyanide to recover gold from aqua
regia? A license?
Would I need a license to possess Beryllium, perhaps the most poisonous
non-radioactive metal? How about Beryllium-Copper alloy?
Do I need a license for nitrate fertilizers which *could* be used to
make VERY powerful explosive devices such as the one that the IRA
recently detonated, killing 1 and injuring 45?
Can I have vinegar without license? Hydrogen peroxide? Where is the
line drawn?
| 5 |
4,036 |
I have no idea what this guy means but the Syrian Jews are not allowed
to leave Syria because Assad welshed on his promise and is not letting
them go. Israel has nothing to do with it.
As for the other Arab countries there are still small communities left
in some Arab countries. Morocco has the largest group I think comprising
perhaps just over a thousand (but I have lost the exact figure. Maybe
someone will be so kind as to post it). There are communities left in
Yemen (which went to the polls yesterday in what might appear to be a
free-ish election), Algeria (this is a tiny group, a couple of leftist
intellectuals I think), of course Syria and Lebannon.
The circumstances of the departure of the Jews from various Arab countries
is controversial in some cases - like Iraq - and I do not want to get into
a dispute about it. Egypt expelled most of its community outright. Most of
the French North African Jews left rather than face Independence. I think
that Moroccans might have been encouraged by some AntiSemitic acts but I
am not sure. Someone else around here will know for sure. There are claims
that Israeli intellegence officers spread rumours around Algeria that the
Jews would not be welcome but this is probably just propaganda. It would
take a very stupid person not to realise the benefits of a move to France
(as most did) or to Israel. Yemeni Jews were airlifted to Israel. Those
left were rumoured to have another airlift last year but I heard nothing
about it so I guess it was just a rumour. Any I left out except Iraq?
Joseph Askew
| 5 |
1,773 |
Radiating from someone who is incapable of providing a single scholarly
source on his 'genocide apology program', it is rather amusing. Again,
where is your non-existent list of scholars and scholarly sources?
Here is mine:
"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of
the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at
least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The
memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and
eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
(Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990)
"In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats
in this alien land."
(Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity")
"The crime of systematic cleansing by mass killing and extermination
of the Muslim population in Soviet Republic of Armenia, Karabag,
Bosnia and Herzegovina is an 'Islamic Holocaust' comparable to the
extermination of 2.5 million Muslims by the Armenian Government
during the WWI and of over 6 million European Jews during the WWII."
(Tovfik Kasimov - Azeri Leader - September 25, 1992)
"Today's ethnic cleansing policies by the Serbian dictatorship against
Croatians and Muslims of Yugoslavia, as well as the Soviet Republic
of Armenia's against the Muslim population of neighboring Azerbaijan,
are really no different in their aspirations than the genocide
perpetrated by the Armenian Government 78 years ago against the
Turkish and Kurdish Muslims and Sephardic Jews living in these
lands." (Cebbar Leygara - Kurdish Leader - October 13, 1992)
SOME OF THE REFERENCES FROM EMINENT AUTHORS IN THE FIELD OF MIDDLE-EASTERN
HISTORY AND EYEWITNESSES OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE OF 2.5 MILLION MUSLIMS
1. "The Armenian Revolutionary Movement" by Louise Nalbandian,
University of California Press, Berkeley, Los Angeles, 1975
2. "Diplomacy of Imperialism 1890-1902" by William I. Lenger, Professor
of History, Harward University, Boston, Alfred A. Knopt, New York, 1951
3. "Turkey in Europe" by Sir Charles Elliot,
Edward & Arnold, London, 1900
4. "The Chatnam House Version and Other Middle-Eastern Studies" by
Elie Kedouri, Praeger Publishers, New York, Washington, 1972
5. "The Rising Crescent" by Ernest Jackh,
Farrar & Reinhart, Inc., New York & Toronto, 1944
6. "Spiritual and Political Evolutions in Islam" by Felix Valyi,
Mogan, Paul, Trench & Truebner & Co., London, 1925
7. "The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia" by E. Alexander Powell,
The Century Co., New York, London, 1924
8. "Struggle for Transcaucasia" by Feruz Kazemzadeh,
Yale University Press, New Haven, Conn., 1951
9. "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey" (2 volumes) by
Stanford J. Shaw, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, New York,
Melbourne, 1977
10."The Western Question in Greece and Turkey" by Arnold J. Toynbee,
Constable & Co., Ltd., London, Bombay & Sydney, 1922
11."The Caliph's Last Heritage" by Sir Mark Sykes,
Macmillan & Co., London, 1915
12."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill,
Bobbs Co., Indianapolis, 1928
13."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925
14."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952
15."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17
(Spring 1964)
16."Armenia on the Road to Independence" by Richard G. Hovanessian,
University of California Press, Berkeley, California, 1967
17."The Rebirth of Turkey" by Clair Price,
Thomas Seltzer, New York, 1923
18."Caucasian Battlefields" by W. B. Allen & Paul Muratoff,
Cambridge, 1953
19."Partition of Turkey" by Harry N. Howard,
H. Fertig, New York, 1966
20."The King-Crane Commission" by Harry N. Howard,
Beirut, 1963
21."United States Policy and Partition of Turkey" by Laurence Evans,
John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, 1965
22."British Documents Related to Turkish War of Independence" by Gothard
Jaeschke
1. Neside Kerem Demir, "Bir Sehid Anasina Tarihin Soyledikleri:
Turkiye'nin Ermeni Meselesi," Hulbe Basim ve Yayin T.A.S.,
Ankara, 1982. (Ingilizce Birinci Baski: 1980, "The Armenian
Question in Turkey")
2. Veysel Eroglu, "Ermeni Mezalimi," Sebil Yayinevi, Istanbul, 1978.
3. A. Alper Gazigiray, "Osmanlilardan Gunumuze Kadar Vesikalarla Ermeni
Teroru'nun Kaynaklari," Gozen Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1982.
4. Dr. Kirzioglu M. Fahrettin, "Kars Ili ve Cevresinde Ermeni Mezalimi,"
Kardes Matbaasi, Ankara, 1970.
T.C. Basbakanlik Osmanli Arsivi, Babiali, Istanbul:
a) Yildiz Esas Evraki
b) Yildiz Perakende
c) Irade Defterleri
d) Cemaat-i Gayr-i Muslime Defterleri
e) Meclisi Vukela Mazbatalari
f) Dahiliye Nezareti, Kalem-i Mahsus Dosyalari
g) Dahiliye Nezareti, Sifre Defterleri
h) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Siyasi Kartonlar
i) Babiali Evrak Odasi: Muhimme Kartonlari
T.C. Disisleri Bakanligi, Hazine-i Evrak, Defterdarlik
a) Harb-i Umumi
b) Muteferrik Kartonlar
British Archives:
a) Parliamentary Papers (Hansard): Commons/Lords
b) Foreign Office: Confidential Print: Various Collections
c) Foreign Office: 424/239-253: Turkey: Correspondence - Annual Reports
d) Foreign Office: 608
e) Foreign Office: 371, Political Intelligence: General Correspondence
f) Foreign Office: 800/240, Ryan Papers
g) Foreign Office: 800/151, Curzon Papers
h) Foreign Office: 839: The Eastern Conference: Lausanne. 53 files
India Office Records and Library, Blackfriars Road, London.
a) L/Political and Security/10/851-855 (five boxes), "Turkey: Treaty of
Peace: 1918-1923"
b) L/P & S/10/1031, "Near East: Turkey and Greece: Lausanne Conference,
1921-1923"
c) L/P & S/11/154
d) L/P & S/11/1031
French Archives
Archives du ministere des Affaires entrangeres, Quai d'Orsay, Paris.
a) Documents Diplomatiques: Affaires Armeniens: 1895-1914 Collections
b) Guerre: 1914-1918: Turquie: Legion d'Orient.
c) Levant, 1918-1929: Armenie.
Official Publications, Published Documents, Diplomatic Correspondence,
Agreements, Minutes and Others
A. Turkey (The Ottoman Empire and The Republic of Turkey)
Akarli, E. (ed.); "Belgelerle Tanzimat," (istanbul, 1978).
(Gn. Kur., ATASE); "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXI (81),
(Dec. 1982).
----; "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi," V. XXXII (83),
(Dec. 1983).
Hocaoglu, M. (ed.); "Ittihad-i Anasir-i Osmaniye Heyeti Nizamnamesi,"
(Istanbul, 1912).
Meray, S. L. (trans./ed.) "Lozan Baris Konferansi: Tutanaklar-Belgeler,"
(Ankara, 1978), 2 vols.
Meray, S. L./O. Olcay (ed.); "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Cokus Belgeleri;
Mondros Birakismasi, Sevr Andlasmasi, Ilgili Belgeler," (Ankara, 1977).
(Osmanli Devleti, Dahiliye Nezareti); "Aspirations et Agissements
Revolutionnaires des Comites Armeniens avant et apres la proclamation
de la Constitution Ottomane," (Istanbul, 1917).
----; "Ermeni Komitelerinin Amal ve Hareket-i Ihtilaliyesi: Ilan-i
Mesrutiyetten Evvel ve Sonra," (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Idare-i Umumiye ve Vilayet Kanunu," (Istanbul, 1913).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. I (Istanbul, 1914).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. II (Istanbul, 1915).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. III (Istanbul, 1916).
----; "Muharrerat-i Umumiye Mecmuasi, V. IV (Istanbul, 1917).
(Osmanli Devleti, Hariciye Nezareti); "Imtiyazat-i Ecnebiyye'nin
Lagvindan Dolayi Memurine Teblig Olunacak Talimatname," (Istanbul, 1915).
(Osmanli Devleti, Harbiye Nezareti); "Islam Ahalinin Ducar Olduklari
Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; (IV. Ordu) "Aliye Divan-i Harbi Orfisinde Tedkik Olunan Mesele-yi
Siyasiye Hakkinda Izahat," (Istanbul, 1916).
Turkozu, H. K. (ed.); "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi,"
(Ankara, 1982).
----; "Turkiye Buyuk Millet Meclisi Gizli Celse Zabitlari," (Ankara, 1985),
4 vols.
Russia
Adamof, E. E. (ed.); "Sovyet Devlet Arsivi Belgeleriyle Anadolu'nun
Taksimi Plani," (tran. H. Rahmi, ed. H. Mutlucag), (Istanbul, 1972).
Altinay, A. R.; "Iki Komite - Iki Kital," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Kafkas Yollarinda Hatiralar ve Tahassusler," (Istanbul, 1919).
----; "Turkiye'de Katolik Propagandasi," Turk tarihi Encumeni Mecmuasi,
V. XIV/82-5 (Sept. 1924).
Asaf Muammer; "Harb ve Mesulleri," (Istanbul, 1918).
Akboy, C.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi, V. I: Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun
Siyasi ve Askeri Hazirliklari ve Harbe Girisi," (Gn. Kur., Ankara, 1970).
Akgun, S.; "General Harbord'un Anadolu Gezisi ve (Ermeni Meselesi'ne Dair)
Raporu: Kurtulus Savasi Baslangicinda," (Istanbul, 1981).
Akin, I.; "Turk Devrim Tarihi," (Istanbul, 1983).
Aksin, S.; "Jon Turkler ve Ittihad ve Terakki," (Istanbul, 1976).
Basar, Z. (ed.);"Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara, 1974).
----; "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler - Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978).
Belen, F.; "Birinci Dunya Harbinde Turk Harbi," (Ankara, 1964).
Deliorman, A.; "Turklere Karsi Ermeni Komitecileri," (Istanbul, 1980).
Ege, N. N. (ed.); "Prens Sabahaddin: Hayati ve Ilmi Mudafaalari,"
(Istanbul, 1977).
Ercikan, A.; "Ermenilerin Bizans ve Osmanli Imparatorluklarindaki Rolleri,"
(Ankara, 1949).
Gurun, K.; 'Ermeni Sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir?', "Turk Tarihinde
Ermeniler Sempozyumu," (Izmir, 1983).
Hocaoglu, M.; "Arsiv Vesikalariyla Tarihte Ermeni Mezalimi ve Ermeniler,"
(Istanbul, 1976).
Karal, E. S.; "Osmanli Tarihi," V. V (1983, 4th ed.); V. VI (1976, 2nd ed.);
V. VII (1977, 2nd ed.); V. VIII (1983, 2nd ed.) Ankara.
Kurat, Y. T.; "Osmanli Imparatorlugu'nun Paylasilmasi," (Ankara, 1976).
Orel, S./S. Yuca; "Ermenilerce Talat Pasa'ya Atfedilen Telgraflarin
Icyuzu," (Ankara, 1983). [Also in English translation.]
Ahmad, F.; "The Young Turks: The Committee of Union and Progress in
Turkish Politics," (Oxford, 1969).
Serdar Argic | 5 |
599 |
once upon a time, that's exactly what they would have done & everyone
could have just gone on living a peaceful (if well armed) life. what
is it that makes people think they have the right -not- to just leave
others be?
jason
| 5 |
6,831 | To Rob and all others that have been debating about the wood stove.
The original post claimed that the ATF/FBI was pumping napalm into the
building with the hopes that the wood stove inside would ignite it. I responed
with why would the wood stove be lit in the first place? It wouldn't be lit
for heating purposes because of the weather in Texas. Everyone now claims
that it was for cooking. Stop and think about this. CS gas was being pumped
into the building and I presume that everyone was wearing gas masks (either
bought or some type of makeshift type) and this had been going on for 6 hours.
I don't know if you have ever been around CS, but I have. Being exposed to CS
gas was part of my Army training, so I know that without a mask it VERY
uncomfortable and makes your eyes water, nose run, and makes you sick in
the stomach. And with the mask it is very difficult to drink water much less
eat. So my question now is "why were they cooking food?"
I will buy that a lantern could have been knocked over and caused the fire.
But that stove was not being used for cooking (unless they were even more
crazy than the ATF/FBI claim). | 5 |
2,852 |
Two notes of interest from Texas:
The Tarrant Couonty ME (who is doing the autopsies) is well known for rendering
judgements that are contrary to the police view. He presented evidence a few
years ago that a man who police said was pointing a gun at them actually had
his hands in the air. This does not bode well for the boys in black.
The Texas Dept. of Public Saftey and the Texas Rangers have no great love for
the ATF. I have heard them referred to as "those fucking cowboys". The DPS
was totally squeezed out of the BD operation and resented being left as
"traffic cops". ATF now has two strikes against them.
Finally (I guess that makes three notes), rumour from Waco is that four ATF
agents were stopped by four Waco police cars and a DPS trooper after one of the
flashed "an automatic weapon" at a cop. Lots of pissed of cops. And you
wonder why there were so few cops really cheering on the ATF. | 5 |
4,141 |
You're sitting in your home reading a good book. Your neighbors think
you're a quiet, upstanding citizen. A random person anonymously calls
the authorities and tells them you beat your children, sleep with all
the neighbor wimmen, and own a bunch of "nasty 50mm machine guns."
Now what are they supposed to do?
Ah, I see. They're supposed to send 100 men in horse trailers with
automatic weapons, storm onto your roof, and throw grenades at your
house with no warning. Then, after subjecting you to noise torture
and telling the national news media for a month what a filthy son of
a bitch you are, they're supposed to gas you and knock your house
around a bit until they manage to collapse it, cause a fire, or
something equally conclusive.
Hope your neighbors don't tumble to this -- at least none of them that
might have a craving for a ringside seat at some cheap but dramatic
local entertainment at someone else's expense. Or maybe even
PARTICULARLY at your expense.
At least they won't have to read you your rights, Joe -- obviously you
had no use for them anyway.
-- | 5 |
1,573 |
On the other hand, Rush made an interesting point: The Democrats ran
one of their best campaigns in years against a pathetic Republican and
a paranoiac and still only pulled 43% of the vote, lost 10 seats in
the House, and gained 0 seats in the Senate. 1994 might be pretty
interesting.
Clueless of the world, take heart! 57% of the electorate is willing
to vote for "a pathetic Republican and a paranoiac"!! | 5 |
4,439 | OK, you've already disqualified yourself (who ever you are) from
being objective.
Jews are a people with a common cultural heritage, religion, and history.
We are not a race.
You don't see a difference between killing British soldiers (who were
preventing Jews who tried to escape the Nazis from entering the
British mandate) and Arab terrorist who kill civilian men, women, and
children?!?
That's ridiculuous on atleast two counts. First of all, even if you identify
yourself as completely Jewish that doesn't rule out the possibility that you're
a self-hating anti-semite. One can always find Jews who are uncomfortable with
their identities (since they only want Jews to be cowering victims) and are
willing to speak up for their enemies. Secondly, the strength or weakness of
your arguments does not depend on your identity. | 5 |
5,017 | This is such Bullshit. Deir Yassin was an unprovoked attack on
the part of the Jews, and a massacre defines it best in my
opinion. The village of Deir Yassin had had a pact with the
Jews, a peace pact, but the Irgun purposely broke this
agreement in order to scare off the Palestinians. I might
grant that this village housed armed Arabs [I doubt it] but
nothing in the archives and available literature indicates that
this was a motivating force amongst the Irgun. The Deir Yassin
MASSACRE was part of an over all strategy to intimidate the
Palestinians to flee the Jewish Homeland.,...and contrary to
your belief, many civilians were killed. Deir Yassin was later
advertized by the very Jews who perpetrated it because it was
useful in getting many Palestinians to leave. The Palestinians
were rightfully scared off, because they did not want another
Deir Yassin.
I'm not necessarily condemning the Israelites here;
atrocities were aslo committed on the part of the Arabs.
Israelophiles should just be careful in thinking that they are
and were the good guys in the middle east. Both Arab and Jew
suck equally.
| 5 |
3,824 | Cancel private health insurance?
When government care that only covers 20% of the population consumes
42% of the spending for health care?
NOT!
National Health Expenditures: 1960 to 1990
(Includes Puerto Rico and outlying areas.)
Year Health Services and Supplies ($billions)
Private Public
====================================
1960 $19.8 $5.7 (22% of total)
1970 $44.1 $24.9 (56% of total)
1980 $140.7 $98.1 (41% of total)
1990 $374.8 $268.6 (42% of total)
[Source: American Almanac, Page 97. 1992-3 Edition]
Now you understand where most of that 12.2% of GNP is going--to waste.
By these figures, private insurance is spending 58% of the money to
cover 4 times as many people.
Go figure. | 5 |
5,164 |
My god, a sane person! Somebody asking intelligent questions rather
than spouting of unsubstantiated drivel and making comparisons to Nazi
Germany. I question, along with others, the initial raid by the ATF.
There are some definite questions needing answers.
Probably. Which is why there are so many people angry at the
initial confrontation. Why attack a compound with as many people in that
compound who are willing to die for their leader? Further, they attacked
in the daylight hours without proper backup, medical support, etc. That
was rather stupid...
This I doubt. While I question the ATF's initial raid, I believe
that the remainder of the standoff was handled fairly well with the single
exception of the psychological "warfare" by blaring music, etc. I think
that was uncalled for and probably hindered the outcome.
See above...
Agreed.
Which is actually rather refreshing nowadays. Most of the time, the
higher-ups claim "I don't remember..." or "I had no involvement..." :-)
| 5 |
2,106 |
I don't have the faintest idea what literature it is to which you
refer. Is this an explicit statement by some document? Or is it your
interpretation of statements in such literature? Or is this a figment
of your imagination or a Nazi Armenian propaganda movie script? In
any case, a fascinating piece of analysis. Here are the facts:
Source: Walker, Christopher: "Armenia: The Survival of a Nation."
New York (St. Martin's Press), 1980.
This generally pro-Armenian work contains the following information
of direct relevance to the Nazi Holocaust:
a) Dro (the butcher), the former dictator of x-Soviet Armenia and the
architect of the genocide of 2.5 million Muslims, the most respected
of Nazi Armenian leaders, established an Armenian Provisional Republic
in Berlin during World War II;
b) this 'provisional government' fully endorsed and espoused the social
theories of the Nazis, declared themselves and all Armenians to be members
of the Aryan 'Super-Race;'
c) they published an Anti-Semitic, racist journal, thereby aligning themselves
with the Nazis and their efforts to exterminate the Jews; and,
d) they mobilized an Armenian Army of up to 30,000 members which fought side
by side with the Wehrmacht.
In fact, by 1942, Nazi Armenians in Europe had established a vast
network of pro-German collaborators, that extended over two continents.
Thousands of Armenians were serving the German army and Waffen-SS in
Russia and Western Europe. Armenians were involved in espionage and
fifth-column activities for Hitler in the Balkans and Arabian Peninsula.
They were promised an 'independent' state under German 'protection' in
an agreement signed by the 'Armenian National Council.' (A copy of
this agreement can be found in the 'Congressional Record,' November 1,
1945; see Document 1.) On this side of the Atlantic, Nazi Armenians
were aware of their brethrens alliance. They had often expressed
pro-Nazi sentiments until America entered the war.
In 1941, while the Jews were being assembled for their doom in the Nazi
concentration camps, the Nazi Armenians in Germany formed the first
Armenian battalion to fight alongside the Nazis. In 1943, this battalion
had grown into eight battalions of 30,000-strong under the command of Dro
(the butcher), who was the former dictator of x-Soviet Armenia and the
architect of the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds
between 1914-1920. An Armenian National Council was formed by the notorious
Dashnak Party leaders in Berlin, which was recognized by the Nazis. Encouraged
by this, the Armenians summarily formed a provisional government that endorsed
and espoused fully the principles of the Nazis and declared themselves as the
members of the Aryan super race and full participants to Hitler's policy of
extermination of the Jews.
This Armenian-Nazi conspiracy against the Jews during WWII was an "encore"
performance staged by the Armenians during WWI, when they back-stabbed and
exterminated 2.5 million Muslims by colluding with the invading Russian army.
Serdar Argic | 5 |
1,828 | A really sad op-ed appeared in my school's newpaper today. It
claimed that full-auto weapons are illegal in the U.S.
I understand that full-auto weapons made and registered before
May 19, 1986 are still legal in 40 of the 50 states. Is
Texas one of those states?
Can anyone point me to a source for info on how many people have been
killed by legal full-auto weapons in the U.S.?
And finally, I think it would be great if anyone was keeping a digest
of facts on the Waco incident. In particular, I would like a source
for the FBI/BATF mentioning the supposed methamphetamine lab, and
information on the beginning of the raid, specifically BATF
lies.
I am also interested in past BATF no-knock warrents which have lead
to personal and property damage against innocent citizens.
I intend to put together a reply to this op-ed very soon. The author
of the piece states he wants to work for the BATF. gack! | 5 |
6,376 | From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Zionist leaders' frank statements
The following are quotations from Zionist leaders. They appear in
numerous scholarly works dealing with the Palestine question. I urge those
who have access to original sources, to verify the authenticity of the
source and post here their finding, adhering to the truth whatever it be.
Thanks.
Elias Davidsson
------------------------------
Quotations from Zionist leaders
1. "There was no such thing as Palestinians"
(Golda Meir, Prime Minister of Israel, London Sunday
Times, 15 June 1969)
2. "There is, however, a difficulty from which the Zionist
dares not avert his eyes, though he rarely likes to face it.
Palestine proper has already its inhabitants."
(Israel Zangwill, The Voice of Jerusalem, London 1920,
p.88)
3. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be
able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged
cockroaches in a bottle."
(Raphael Eitan, Israeli Chief of Staff, New York Times, 14
April 1983)
4. "[The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs."
(Menachem Begin, Prime Minister of Israel in a speech to
the Knesset,
quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, 'Begin and the "Beasts", New
Statesman, 25 June 1982)
5. "Both the process of expropriation [of the Palestinians]
and the removal of the poor must be carried out
discreetly and circumspectly".
(Dr. Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, Herzl Press,
1960, I., p.88)
6. "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no
room for both people together in this country...The only
solution is a Palestine.....without Arabs. And there is no
other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to the
neighboring countries, to transfer all of them; not one
village, not one tribe, should be left."
(Joseph Weitz, Jewish National Fund, administrator
responsible for Zionist colonization. Davar, 29 September
1967).
7."We shall try to spirit the penniless population [the
Palestinians] across the border by procuring employment
for it in the transit countries, while denying it any
employment in our own country"
(Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, Herzl Press, 1960,
I, p.88)
8. "[Zionists]...looked for means...to cause the tens of
thousands of sulky Arabs who remained in the Galilee to
flee...I gathered all the Jewish muktars, who have contact
with Arabs in different villages and asked them to
whisper in the ears of some Arabs that a great Jewish
reinforcement has arrived in Galilee and that it is going
to burn all of the villages of the Huleh. They should
suggest to these Arabs, as their friends, to escape while
there is still time....The tactic reached its goal....wide
areas were cleaned."
(Yig'al Alon, Sepher Ha Palmach, in Hebrew, II. p.268,
quoted in Khalidi, From Haven to Conquest, IPS, 1971).
10. "[Jews] must expel Arabs and take their place"
(David Ben Gurion, 1937, quoted in Shabtai Teveth, Ben
Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press,
1985, p. 89)
11. "We must do everything to ensure they [the
Palestinian refugees] never do return"
(David Ben Gurion, in his diary, 19 July 1948, quoted in
Michael Bar Zohar, Ben Gurion: The Armed Prophet,
Prentice-Hall, 1967, p.157)
12. "The country was mostly an empty desert, with only
a few islands of Arab settlement"
(Shimon Peres, Minister of Defense, quoted in David's
Sling: The Arming of Israel, Weidenfeld and Nicholson,
1970, p.249)
13. "All this story about the danger of extermination [of
Jews] has been blown up....to justify the annexation of
new Arab territories"
(Mordechai Bentov, Israeli Cabinet Minister, Al
Hamishmar, 14 April 1972)
14. "Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can
disqualify terrorism as a means of combat"
(Yitzhak Shamir, Hehazit, Summer 1943 [Journal of the
LEHI, the Stern Gang], translated from the Israeli daily
Al-Hamishmar, 24 December 1987
14. "The domination of Jewish agriculture by Arab
workers is a cancer in our body"
(A. Uzan, Israeli Minister of Agriculture, Ha'aretz, 13
December 1974)
15. "There can be only one national home in Palestine,
and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership
between Jews and Arabs"
(Montague David Eder, President of the Zionist
Federation of Great Britain, 1931,
in Doreen Ingrams, comp., Palestine Papers 1917-1922,
Seeds of Conflict, George Braziller, 1973, p. 135)
16. "I hope that the Jewish frontiers of Palestine will be
as great as Jewish energy for getting Palestine"
(Dr. Chaim Weizmann, first President of the State of
Israel, Excerpts from His Historic Statements, Writings
and Addresses, Jewish Agency for Palestine, 1952, p.48)
17. "There is not a single Jewish village in this country
that has not been built on the site of an Arab village"
(Moshe Dayan, Ha'aretz, 4 April 1969...)
18. "Some people talk of expelling 700,000 to 800,000
Arabs in the event of a new war, and instruments have
been prepared"
(Aharon Yariv, former chief of Israeli military
intelligence, 1980, Inquiry, 8 December 1980)
19. "If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace]
with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their
country."
(David Ben Gurion, in Nahum Goldmann, The Jewish
Paradox, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p.99)
20. "We should there [in Palestine] form a portion of the
rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization
as opposed to barbarism."
(Dr. Theodor Herzl, The Jewish State, London, 1896, p.
29)
21. "I deeply believe in launching preventive war
against the Arab States without further hesitation. By
doing so we will achieve two targets: firstly, the
annihilation of Arab power; and secondly, the expansion
of our territory"
(Menachem Begin, in a speech to the Knesset, 12 October
1955)
22. "During the last 100 years our people have been in a
process of building up the country and the nation, of
expansion, of getting additional Jews and additional
settlements in order to expand the borders here. Let no
Jew say that the process has ended. Let no Jew say that
we are near the end of the road."
(Moshe Dayan, Ma'ariv, 7 July 1968)
23. "Until the British left, no Jewish settlement, however
remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the
Haganah, under severe and frequent attack, captured
many Arab positions and liberated Tiberias and Haifa,
Jaffa and Safad"
(David Ben Gurion, Rebirth and Destiny of Israel,
Philosophical Library, 1954, p.530)
24. "In the months preceding the Arab invasion [of
1948], and while the five Arab states were conducting
preparations, we continued to make sallies into Arab
territory. The conquest of Jaffa stands out as an event of
first-rate importance in the struggle for Hebrew
independence early in May, on the eve of the invasion
by the five Arab states."
(Menachem Begin, The Revolt, Nash, 1972, p.348)
25. "What the French could do in Tunisia, I said, the Jews
would be able to do in Palestine with Jewish will, Jewish
money, Jewish power and Jewish enthusiasm"
(Dr. Chaim Weizmann, First President of the State of
Israel, Trial and Error, Harper, 1949, p.244)
26. "I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions
he sent to the Sinai on May 14 [1967] would not have
been sufficient to launch an offensive against Israel. He
knew it and we knew it."
(Yitzhak Rabin, Le Monde, 29 February 1968)
27. "To pretend that the Egyptian forces massed on our
frontiers [in 1967] were in position to threaten the
existence of Israel constitutes an insult not only to the
intelligence of anyone capable of analyzing this sort of
situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal [Israeli
army]"
(General Res. Matti Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972)
28. "when we have broken the strength of the Arab
Legion and bombarded Amman, we would wipe out
Transjordan; after that Syria would fall....we would thus
end the war, and would have put paid to Egypt, Assyria
and Chaldea on behalf of our ancestors"
(David Ben Gurion in his diaries, quoted in Michael Bar-
Zohar, The Armed Prophet, A Biography of Ben-Gurion,
Prentice-Hall, 1967, p.139)
29. "These Jews of the Diaspora would like to see us, for
their own reasons, heroes with our backs to the wall. But
this wish can in no way change the realities."
(Israeli General Ezer Weizmann, Le Monde, 3 June 1972) | 5 |
4,376 | Los Angeles Times, Saturday, May 8, 1993. Page A11.
FIGURE IN ADL SPY CASE ARRESTED AT S.F. AIRPORT
ESPIONAGE: Former police officer is taken into custody upon
arriving from Philippines, where he had fled after FBI
interrogation.
By Jenifer Warren, Times staff writer
San Francisco -- A former San Francisco police officer who fled to the
Philippines amid accusations that he funneled confidential law
enforcement information to an investigator for the Anti-Defamation
League was arrested at the airport here on 11 felony charges, police
said Friday.
Thomas J. Gerard who abruptly left the United States in October after
the FBI questioned him about his activities, was apprehended Thursday
night after a source in the Philippines told investigators that Gerard
was returning home.
Gerard, 50, was booked into San Francisco County Jail early Friday
morning on eight counts of theft of government documents and one count
each of computer theft, burglary and conspiracy.
If convicted on all charges, Gerard could face 16 years in prison and
$40,000 in fines. Bail was initially set at $250,000 after police
argued that he was a flight risk, but it was later reduced to $20,000.
A friend of Gerard was trying to post bail late Friday afternoon, a
sheriff's spokeswoman said.
Gerard returned to the United because he missed his wife and child,
with whom he lived on a houseboat in Sausalito, and "wanted to have
his day in court," said Police Capt. John Willett, his former boss and
one of two arresting officers.
Gerard, an undercover agent for the Central Intelligence Agency from
1982 to 1985, also feared that the CIA was out to kill him, Willett
said. In an interview with The Times last month, Gerard threatened to
disclose illegal CIA support of death squads in Central America if he
was indicted and tried on the San Francisco spying charges.
Gerard is a central figure in a scandal over an intelligence network
operated by the Anti-Defamation League, a prominent Jewish civil
rights organization. Investigators allege that Gerard illegally gave
criminal histories to Roy Bullock, a San Francisco art dealer who said
he has been an undercover ADL intelligence operative for 40 years.
Investigators said they found confidential police files in Bullock's
home computer -- which contained entries on 10,000 people and 950
groups -- and in boxes in his apartment. Files have also been seized
under search warrants from ADL offices in San Francisco and Los
Angeles but authorities have not disclosed their contents.
Gerard could not be reached for comment Friday, and his attorney,
James Lassart, did not return telephone calls seeking comment. In the
interview with The Times last month, however, Gerard acknowledged
snooping and sharing some information with Bullock, but denied any
criminal wrongdoing.
Bullock and Gerard also are under investigation for selling
intelligence to South Africa.
ADL officials have described Bullock as a $550-a-week independent
contractor and have vigorously denied knowledge of any illegal
activity. On Friday, ADL lawyer Jerrold Ladar said Gerard's arrest
"has nothing to do with ADL. Other than that, we have no comment on
the case."
Arab-American groups -- which were a main target of the spying,
according to police -- applauded the arrest and pressed authorities to
pursue the investigation.
"We urge investigators to carry this case forward and to publicly
disclose the full extent of ADL and law enforcement involvement," said
James Zogby, head of the Arab American Institute in Washington.
Police, meanwhile, characterized Gerard's arrest -- the first in the
inquiry into the spying scandal -- as an unexpected breakthrough. A
former police colleague of Gerard, Inspector Fred Mollat, visited
Gerard several weeks ago and urged him to return home.
"I knew he wouldn't want to live on an island on the lam forever, but
we didn't think it would happen this quickly," Capt. Willett said.
"This development really speeds up our timetable on the case."
During his 25-year career on the police force, Gerard was a highly
regarded officer known for his work in the department's intelligence
division. His last assignment was on the gang task force.
After FBI agents questioned Gerard last fall, he took early retirement
and fled to the remote jungle island of Palawan, 300 miles south of
Manila.
Gerard was arrested at 8:40 p.m. as he stepped from his Philippines
Airlines flight. He was traveling alone and looked tanned but haggard
after his six-month hiatus, police said.
"He was surprised when he saw us standing there, and got a shocked
look on his face," Willett said. "Then he said, 'Hello, I'm back.'"
| 5 |
1,763 |
How about the following scholarly source?
Source: Pierre Oberling, "The Road to Bellapais: The Turkish Cypriot
Exodus to Northern Cyprus", Social Science Monographs, Boulder,
1982, ISBN 88033-000-7.
Well, I am forced to disagree with you. The Greeks started massacring
the Turkish population on Cyprus in 1974. In 1974, Turkiye stepped into
Cyprus to preserve the lives of the Turkish population there. This is
nothing but a simple historical fact. Unfortunately, the intervention
was too late at least for some of the victims. Mass graves containing
numerous bodies of women and children already showed what fate had been
planned for a peaceful minority.
The people of Turkiye know quite well that Greece and the Greek Cypriots
will never abandon the idea of hellenizing Cyprus and will remain
eternally hopeful of uniting it with Greece, someday, whatever the
cost to the parties involved. The history speaks for itself. Greece was
the sole perpetrator of invasion on that island when it sent its troops
on July 15, 1974 in an attempt to topple the legitimate government of
Archibishop Makarios.
The release of Nikos Sampson, a member of EOKA [National Organization
of Cypriot Fighters] and a convicted terrorist, shows that the
'enosis' mentality continues to survive in Greece. One should not
forget that Sampson dedicated his life to annihilating the Turks
in Cyprus, committed murder to achieve this goal, and tried to
destroy the island's independence by annexing it to Greece. Of
course, the Greek governments will have to bear the consequences
for this irresponsible conduct.
Turkish Cypriots are simply seeking guarantees that will preclude a
repeat performance by the fanatical cadres of the Greeks' EOKA. If
such assurances are not perfectly implemented, there is every reason
to expect that the local Greeks will be misguided enough to perpetrate
their past mistakes. On such an occasion, the Turkish side may not find
it satisfactory to act with reluctance to go any further than before,
for it is unacceptable to remain always defensive against cyclical
vicious attacks. Therefore it would be better to have a true federation
of two separate sections living in obligatory peace, rather than another
armed confrontation that would be started by the Greeks and obligatorily
but decisively terminated by the Turks.
The present Greek government is trying to tyrannize the Turkish population
in western Thrace by forbidding it its ethnic and religious rights, which
were established through international treaties. One might be better
advised to remember that misadventures against Turkiye do not serve
Greece well.
An offer of membership in the European Common Market as bait for concessions
that may doom the Turks in Cyprus to extinction is not a viable course for
Greece or her friends. Neither Turkish lives nor Turkish honor has been
placed on the bidding block to be sold for commercial gain.
Serdar Argic | 5 |
289 |
Sorry, but this is a red herring.
Are you contending that the "mountain of forms" are processed by Blue
Cross? Having had Blue Cross insurance both as a government employee
and as an employee of a private corporation, I saw no difference between
the two sets of forms.
Moreover, the administrative costs associated with Medicare/Medicaid,
the two primary forms of "government" insurance are considerably lower than
the average for private insurance companies. (5% versus 14%-16%).
If you have any evidence that Blue Cross bears a heavier burden in insuring
government employees than private employees, post it. Otherwise, try
to stick to factual assertions.
Well now, that's an interesting defense of the "free enterprise" system.
Are you contending that it is government intervention that prevents
private insurance companies from "standardizing?"
In fact, it is true that some of the red-tape burden stems from the
lack of standardization among the 1500 or so private insurers in the US,
but it's a little difficult to understand how this is anything other than
"free enterprise" at work.
By the way, Barron's, the bible of Wall Street, this week admitted that
administrative costs were significantly lower in Canada because "....a
single-payer system is always cheaper...". Guess even the "free enterprise
advocates" are beginning to see the light.
Sorry, but you seem to be confusing proposals with health care
reform with the Bush administration's gag order on federally funded family
planning clinics. There are no proposals that would control what your
"doctor...can and cannot say about medical procedures."
Try again.
jsh | 5 |
5,801 |
I agree, I saw no reason they could not have had "close in" pool
cameras manned by volunteers and protected by sandbags or whatever.
[Points made by Dick DeGueran, Koresh's lawyer]
Okay, their word against the FBI's at this point. See ya in court!
Dear, dear. They could have COME OUT.
Okay, they were living in a fire hazard. That they built.
No crime, irrelevant either way.
Ah yes, that is exactly what I would do. Hold Bible study. Take a nap.
Always a wise course of action when you're being gassed.
I don't believe there was a "suicide pact". I believe that Koresh
wanted a fiery conflagration ... which he may not have told his followers.
In fact, this hypothesis is CONFIRMED by the survivors' stories.
Yes, that's right. And once the whole compound was demolished, where
did they expect to go?
The building is being RAMMED and they are going UPSTAIRS? That's almost
as bad as running into a fire.
Hm, an interesting notion. We'll see.
More Bible study, no doubt. Hey, it's a *priority*.
Actually, on Friday he stated that there was no evidence either way and
he could not flatly contradict the federal agents' claims. We'll know
more later. In any event, it's irrelevant.
For six hours they were trapped? The building was not "destroyed"
immediately. They COULD HAVE LEFT AT ANY TIME.
Six hours to move it away. Or COME OUT.
Irrelevant, anyway. PR one way or the other, but no crime or innocence
indicated.
No word on whether they were being fired back at, which is an operative
question here.
Right. For six hours you know that a tank could come thru the wall at
any point, and you leave a COLEMAN LANTERN BURNING. Near BALES OF HAY.
It's ultimately irrelevant who "lit" the fire. They had ample opportunity
to LEAVE.
Most charismatic leaders are extremely intelligent, actually. They tend
to be excellent actors and skilled manipulators. (Ex.: Ted Bundy.)
Medical assistance was jsut a phone call away. Gee, all he had to do
was COME OUT.
Not relevant to any crimes.
While he was there. Anyway, outsiders RARELY see abuse. It's a secretive
thing. All we have to go on are the court documents in the Jewell case
and the mistrial in California.
EXACTLY. By their OWN CHOICE.
Looks like there will be several investigations, starting with Congressional
committee hearings next week....
I have NEVER judged them by their religion, but by their ACTIONS.
If they had lived a quiet, religious life as they claimed, there would
have been no raid, no siege, and no deaths. Instead, they chose courses
of action at every turn that were at the very least STUPID, if not
IRRATIONAL. The first was to stockpile weapons. The second was to
shoot federal agents. The third was to stay inside.
Just as we don't blame a cop who shoots a kid who had pointed a toy
weapon at him, I don't think the FBI deserves blame in this case.
| 5 |
1,674 |
On the news from radio station KANU (Lawrence, KS) about 6:15 this Monday
morning, I heard someone with a nasal-sounding voice (supposedly the Waco
coroner?) claim that he had found TWO persons killed with a single shot
to the forehead.
--Myron. | 5 |
3,224 |
Precisely, why not Cuba?? Why not??? The Hatians are being ruled by thugs
and their elected leader has asked support to reestablish the peoples will. If
the U.S. or any other democracy wishes to, they are in the perfect right to
help them without any whining from thir parties. After all if it turns out to
be colonialism and the poeple don't like it, they' find a way to throw them out.
Who ever said people who commit genocide have the right to commit genocide??
I want a world where criminals agains humanity have no place to hide, while you
want special sovereignties designed to protect them. Nobody has the right to
commit crimes against humanity, and if they do they loose all right to self
determination. If this is classical colonialism, then so be it. | 5 |
3,579 |
And this search procedure must also follow the rule of law.
It may, if necessary, when the search is executed in an illegal and
violent fashion.
These "criminals" were threatening the lives of NO ONE -- they were fired
on FIRST, according to a number of accounts.
Wrong. Firing a gun at someone is lethal force, even if no one is hit.
Of course, they DID hit AND kill people.
You are silly. There are no such warrants in existence, Phill.
Thanks, Phill, for another example of that great socialist sensitivity.
"Obey the government or die."
*PLONK*
-- | 5 |
5,987 | Here is a press release from the White House.
Text of President Clinton's Letter to Congress on Iranian Assets
To: National Desk
Contact: White House Press Office, 202-456-2100
WASHINGTON, May 14 -- Following is a letter
President Clinton wrote to Congress on Iranian Assets:
TO THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES:
I hereby report to the Congress on developments since the
last Presidential report on November 10, 1992, concerning the
national emergency with respect to Iran that was declared in
Executive Order No. 12170 of November 14, 1979, and matters
relating to Executive Order No. 12613 of October 29, 1987.
This report is submitted pursuant to section 204(c) of the
International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. 1703(c),
and section 505(c) of the International Security and Development
Cooperation Act of 1985, 22 U.S.C. 2349aa-9(c). This report
covers events through March 31, 1993. The last report, dated
November 10, 1992, covered events through October 15, 1992.
1. There have been no amendments to the Iranian
Transactions Regulations ("ITRs"), 31 CFR Part 560, or to the
Iranian Assets Control Regulations ("IACRs"), 31 CFR Part 535,
since the last report.
2. The Office of Foreign Assets Control ("FAC") of the
Department of the Treasury continues to process applications
for import licenses under the ITRs. However, as previously
reported, recent amendments to the ITRs have resulted in a
substantial decrease in the number of applications received
relating to the importation of nonfungible Iranian-origin goods.
During the reporting period, the Customs Service has
continued to effect numerous seizures of Iranian-origin
merchandise, primarily carpets, for violation of the import
prohibitions of the ITRs. FAC and Customs Service investi-
gations of these violations have resulted in forfeiture actions
and the imposition of civil monetary penalties. Additional
forfeiture and civil penalty actions are under review.
3. The Iran-United States Claims Tribunal (the
"Tribunal"), established at The Hague pursuant to the Algiers
Accords, continues to make progress in arbitrating the claims
before it. Since the last report, the Tribunal has rendered
12 awards, for a total of 545 awards. Of that total, 367 have
been awards in favor of American claimants: 222 of these were
awards on agreed terms, authorizing and approving payment of
settlements negotiated by the parties, and 145 were decisions
adjudicated on the merits. The Tribunal has issued 36 decisions
dismissing claims on the merits and 83 decisions dismissing
claims for jurisdictional reasons. Of the 59 remaining awards,
3 approved the withdrawal of cases, and 56 were in favor of
Iranian claimants. As of March 31, 1993, awards to successful
American claimants from the Security Account held by the
NV Settlement Bank stood at $2,340,072,357.77.
As of March 31, 1993, the Security Account has fallen
below the required balance of $500 million 36 times. Iran has
periodically replenished the account, as required by the Algiers
Accords, by transferring funds from the separate account held by
the NV Settlement Bank in which interest on the Security Account
is deposited. Iran has also replenished the account with the
proceeds from the sale of Iranian-origin oil imported into the
United States, pursuant to transactions licensed on a case-by-
case basis by FAC. Iran has not, however, replenished the
account since the last oil sale deposit on October 8, 1992.
The aggregate amount that has been transferred from the Interest
Account to the Security Account is $874,472,986.47. As of
March 31, 1993, the total amount in the Security Account was
$216,244,986.03, and the total amount in the Interest Account
was $8,638,133.15.
4. The Tribunal continues to make progress in the
arbitration of claims of U.S. nationals for $250,000.00 or more.
Since the last report, nine large claims have been decided.
More than 85 percent of the nonbank claims have now been
disposed of through adjudication, settlement, or voluntary
withdrawal, leaving 76 such claims on the docket. The larger
claims, the resolution of which has been slowed by their
complexity, are finally being resolved, sometimes with sizable
awards to the U.S. claimants. For example, two claimants were
awarded more than $130 million each by the Tribunal in October
1992.
5. As anticipated by the May 13, 1990, agreement settling
the claims of U.S. nationals for less than $250,000.00, the
Foreign Claims Settlement Commission ("FCSC") has continued its
review of 3,112 claims. The FCSC has issued decisions in
1,201 claims, for total awards of more than $22 million. The
FCSC expects to complete its adjudication of the remaining
claims in early 1994.
6. In coordination with concerned Government agencies,
the Department of State continues to present United States
Government claims against Iran, as well as responses by the
United States Government to claims brought against it by Iran.
In November 1992, the United States filed 25 volumes of
supporting information in case B/1 (Claims 2 & 3), Iran's claim
against the United States for damages relating to its Foreign
Military Sales Program. In February of this year, the United
States participated in a daylong prehearing conference in
several other cases involving military equipment. Iran also
filed a new interpretative dispute alleging that the failure
of U.S. courts to enforce an award against a U.S. corporation
violated the Algiers Accords.
7. As reported in November, Jose Maria Ruda, President of
the Tribunal, tendered his resignation on October 2, 1992. No
successor has yet been named. Judge Ruda's resignation will
take effect as soon as a successor becomes available to take up
his duties.
8. The situation reviewed above continues to involve
important diplomatic, financial, and legal interests of the
United States and its nationals. Iran's policy behavior
presents challenges to the national security and foreign
policy of the United States. The IACRs issued pursuant to
Executive Order No. 12170 continue to play an important role
in structuring our relationship with Iran and in enabling
the United States to implement properly the Algiers Accords.
Similarly, the ITRs issued pursuant to Executive Order No. 12613
continue to advance important objectives in combatting inter-
national terrorism. I shall exercise the powers at my disposal
to deal with these problems and will report periodically to the
Congress on significant developments.
WILLIAM J. CLINTON
THE WHITE HOUSE,
May 14, 1993.
-30-
| 5 |
2,840 | hello,
I just want to make 2 points:
1) The FBI is not stupid. These people are chosen for their intelligence,
education, loyalty to the government, etc. They are given much intensive
training. So, to all of you who refuse to believe there could be any
conspiracy here, and say that the FBI was just stupid, I say I don't
believe it.
2) The FBI has acces to the latest in audio and video technology -- the
latest digital systems. The FBI can manufacture evidence. Need a tape of
Koresh saying, "light the fire", and you can have one. Need a thermal
imaging video of three people lighting fires, and through the magic of
computer graphics, you can have one. The thing is, manufacturing these
pieces of evidence takes time. So it may be a few more days before we
get to see them. Or maybe we just haven't heard any tapes or seen any
FBI video is because it is:
1) classified
2) too gruesome for our eyes
3) lost/got coffee spilled on it
Dwayne Jacques Fontenot | 5 |
22 |
Bosnian Muslims are citizens od Bosnia-Herzegovina who identify themselves
with Bosnian Muslim cultural and religious tradition.
In Bosnia, "Muslim" is not merely a religious category, but an ethnic
one as well. Actually, here are the two contradictory arguments
made by people on this subject:
(1) There is only Serbian and Croatian nationality, and Bosnian Muslims
are simply Croats and Serbs of Islamic faith.
(2) Bosnian Muslims are a separate nationality since they do not feel
themselves to be Croats nor Serbs.
In 1968, argument (2) was accepted by former Yugoslavia as valid,
and (1) was soundly rejected. The reasons are pragmatic: even if
Bosnian Muslims are Croats and Serbs who converted to Islam under
Turkish rule centuries ago, none of the present generation has any
clue what was their ancestor's actual nationality. In fact, although
Bosnian Muslims have felt drawn to Croatian or Serbian national
allegiance, most of them feel they have a separate cultural and
historic identity. So, arguments like "yes, but your ancestors were
Croats or Serbs" carry very little weight. Regardless of what
their ancestors might have been, as long as Bosnian Muslims feel
that they are a separate national group, that ends the debate.
What outsiders say is simply not relevant.
In the case of former Yugoslavia, the date is 1971, when "Muslim nationality"
appeared as a census category for the first time. This was the result
of a sequence of decisions over the past decade, from recognizing
"Bosniaks" as an ethnic group (1961) to February 1968 resolution (in B-H)
declaring that Muslims are a separate nation, to formal endorsement
of this in January 1969, and eventually to the 1971 inclusion of
"Muslim nationality" choice in census forms.
For comparison, in 1948 census there were three national categories
available to Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina:
Serb-Muslims: 71,991
Croat-Muslims: 25,295
Muslims, ethnically undeclared: 788,403
This clearly demonstrates that Muslims feel themselves to be their own
nationality. Only a tiny minority felt able to choose Serb or Croat
nationality. Census results show that Bosnian Muslims have
consistently opted for a third category: in 1948 they chose "undeclared",
in 1953 they chose "Yugoslavs", in 1961 both "Yugoslavs" and "Bosniak
ethnic group", and in 1971, 1981 and 1991 they chose "Muslim nationality".
Perhaps the term "Bosnian Muslim nationality" is too confusing for
the rest of the world. But, in the present context, we ARE talking
about Muslims as nationality; not as a religous group within some
separate national identity. The reasons are mostly historical and
cultural. Religion plays a smaller role, as a part of culture in general,
because the area is simply not known for religious fanaticism. Political
fanaticism, yes; religious fanaticism, no. Group security and survival
dominate people's thinking; not fine points of theology. In fact,
Bosnia-Herzegovina is as well known for religious tolerance in peacetime
as it is known for terrible carnage in wartime. | 5 |
7,509 |
Yes, so? You still haven't explained why they
can't be used to enforce Civil Law. They certainly
would have done a better job of Koresh. Just call
in an air strike.
| 5 |
401 |
BULLSHIT. How many lakes have ceased to be able to support life from
purely natural pollution? Man has already done this to scores of lakes.
Also, much of the "degredation" you cite was done by cows and pigs.
And why do think there are so many cows around?
Could it be.......cause people raise them?
| 5 |
5,407 | CAN you read ??
If so: read my posting about Quisling OR look in a dictionary.
If not: Don't read this :)
| 5 |
3,254 | 5 Apr 93
MOSCOW (UPI) --
...
``It's horrible. People are trying to get their wives and children
out, men are leaving their defense positions, it's total anarchy,'' said
Mekhman Aliyev, a spokesman for the Azerbaijani president.
Aliyev said 210 people -- three-quarters of them civilians, the rest
government soldiers -- had been killed and 200 wounded in the assault by
Armenian fighters.
Serdar Argic | 5 |
3,869 | can anybody guess this from the title?
Not me, I thought that a clash between Israelis and Arabs resulted
in four deaths on one side and two on the other.
How about being illegally settled there?
I am not sure about the signals the Israelis are sending, one day
they are willing to accept a Jordan/West Bank federation, the other
they do not recognize the west bank as occupied territory (neither
did the U.S, "the honest brocker")
(details of the killings omitted, PLO,Hamas graffiti both claim responsability)
Now don't tell me that this could not be an Israeli spy.
We will know later.
*********************************
Now the UPI shows its ugly face once and for all.
USUALLY?
It happened once this year, once last year. out of possibly thousands
or more. Man how low can you get. | 5 |
5,129 |
: > > However, legalizing it and just sticking some drugs in gas stations to
: > > be bought like cigarettes is just plain silly. Plus, I have never
: > > heard of a recommended dosage for drugs like crack, ecstasy, chrystal
: > > meth and LSD. The 60 Minute Report said it worked with "cocaine"
: > > cigarettes, pot and heroin.
: >
: > Or, the government could adopt the radical and probably unAmerican idea
: > that citizens are free to live their lives as they wish, and simply
: > decriminalize cocaine, marijuana, heroin, LSD, etc. Please explain why
: > the idea of allowing recreational drugs to be "bought like cigarettes"
: > is "just plain silly." After all, it works just fine for nicotine...
: I'm all in favor of drug legalization, but I do see some problems with
: it. My hope is that people disposed to doing so would simply overdose
: quickly, and be done with it, before making a mess of thisgs.
It's actually quite simple. We sell Drug Use Licenses to anybody over age
18 who wants one. Costs $100 and you're required to attend a week of
night classes on the effects of drugs on the human body. At the end of the
class, you sign an informed consent waiver acknowledging that you've been
told that drugs are bad for you, but you want them anyway. In doing so,
you giver up ANY right to state-paid medical care for whatever might
happen to you as a result of doing drugs, or any right to collect welfare
or unemployment should you lose your job as a result of using drugs. You'd
also give up your right to drive a car.
Anybody caught using drugs without a license has a choice; pay a $1000
fine and accept a backdated drug user's license, or go to prison.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Mitchell | The powers not delegated to the United States by the
kmitchel@netcom.com| Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are
Citrus Heights, CA | reserved to the States respectively, or to the People. | 5 |
1,335 |
These zealots. Holy fuck.
Israel. Armenia. Turkey. Greece. Croatia. Serbia. Bosnia. Russia. Germany.
Iran. The Arab World.
War.
| 5 |
3,456 | In a previous article, sadek@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohamed.s.sa
Mohamed,
What has he got to say about the carnage and genocide in our own SUDAN?
The two scenarios must be viewed from the same perspective or don't you
think so? well, methinks. no flames intended!!!
oguocha
| 5 |
1,845 | Count me in for $1000.00.
Allan Lockridge
My Opinions are my own and are not for sale. | 5 |
7,455 | ^^^^^^^^
Oh my god. My spelling and grammer suck. I guess I need some
sleep. I said righting (instead of writing). What's the chance
of that. Thank god I caught it before everyone started picking
on it. I hope I didn't cause Mr.Jefferson too much shame.
| 5 |
5,547 |
If the FBI started the fire, why didn`t people flee the
burning building? | 5 |
7,503 | 5 | |
5,522 | Do all those who are saying the government is responsible for the death
of those in the compound also say that the Isrealis are responsible
for the death of the Isreali athletes at the Olympics? Hey, the
Palestinians and the Dividians COULD have given up peacefully ('yeah,
and monkey could fly out my butt' - Wayne). | 5 |
2,978 |
No joke. Here's another copy for you to save. NPR, hmmm? Did they
mention the part about "The fact of law enforcement access to the
escrowed keys will not be concealed from the American public." ...?
------------------------------------------------------------------------ | 5 |
7,207 |
Not necessarily. If the body had been denatured (cooked) or dehydrated due
to the heat, a projectile needs only a minimal kinetic force to penetrate.
In fire aftermaths, bodies tend to fall apart or loose large chunks of
meat with little effort. Medical Examiners tend not to like cleaning up
such scenes.
As such, if the body had been suitably cooked, a bullet comming from a
magazine explosion would more than likely have enough force to enter and
thus it would be difficult to determine whether a bullet entered at the
time of death, or much later, unless you were trained to look for the
evidence. Texas Rangers are not pathologists.
| 5 |
1,735 |
And you're the guy that doesn't know that illiterate people can't write
coherent sentences. Does that make you superior somehow?
Steve
[] | 5 |
6,957 |
Funny, Brent, but so far we have heard two versions of the "facts:"
1) What the government says. This includes what the government says that
two survivors have said.
2) What Koresh's lawyer (who was actually inside the compound) says,
including what he says that most of the survivors have said.
Strange, but they seem to disagree in most important particulars.
If anyone has actually seen news reports of any of the survivors
speaking first-hand, feel free ot pitch in. I may have missed it.
But my money is that their story will sound a hell of a lot like
case 2, and not at all like case 1.
-- | 5 |
4,172 | It's worse than you show it.....look for Janet REno and others to
link the words "child abuse" and "p[rivate stores of guns" from
now on out. | 5 |
6,430 |
Even better, let's pass a law making it illegal to kill people
with bombs of *any* sort.
--henry schaffer | 5 |
6,816 |
Look out... We have the beginnings of a donnybrook between one of them
liberal, artsy-fartsy western schools and an ossified, establishment
eastern university. :-)
| 5 |
5,356 | @> A few things about the University. It is more fun than some may
@> admit. Partying does go on and it has consistently been ranked
@> one of Playboy's top party schools. ... | 5 |
5,087 | Gulf has changed the third parts's perception of Arabs.
1. Before, people tended to think Arabs have tough character. After seeing
Iraqis begging for surrender, people do not gave Arabs much weight.
2. People tended to think Arabs are a united people in fighting Isrealis.
After Gulf War, seeing some Arab nations beated up Iraqis in order to
waiver the debt to U.S. and Kuwaitis consistly trying to draw West nations
to hit Iraq again, people started to see Arab World as a dog cage, echoing
sound of barking.
| 5 |
4,293 | 5 | |
4,999 | Face it Mr. Beyer, you're just outmatched by us Israeli
intellectuals. Any attempts to defend the deceitful,
undeserving Palestinians will prove fruitless!
| 5 |
7,105 |
I bought mine at the MOW storefront.
Its not plastic, its woven material.
but I think you miss the point.
its not about the five bucks in your pocket, its about supporting the
march and helping to pay for all the printed materail and scehdulkes and
organisation and...
all leading up to the literal *birth* of Queer visibility in this country.
up to this point all our news coverage has been driven by events thatb
happen to us.
this event is happening by our direct action.
of course the last MOW was the same thing but they ignored us.
I guess that was just labor pains.
perhaps they will ignore us again, in which case we will come in
even largeer numbers next time.
Lst night in DC there were so many queers out and about you could hardly get
in any place.
I suspect thatb over the next two days that will become exponentially
larger.
To my mind this is a physical bsuting down of the collective closet of
queer invisibility.
the five bucks is insignificant.
LUX ./. owen
| 5 |
2,564 | 5 | |
5,676 |
It is 'Serdar', 'kocaoglan'.
Just love it. Well, it could be your head wasn't screwed on just right.
If that does ever happen, look out the window and see if there is a
non-fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government in the East.
"In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats
in this alien land."
(Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity")
You sound like ASALA/SDPA/ARF idiots/clowns/crooks. If you prefer to
imagine that U.S. Ambassador Bristol and Armenian/Jewish scholars were
trying to mislead 'Arromdians', be my guest. A typical Armenian clown.
Source: "U.S. Library of Congress": 'Bristol Papers' - General
Correspondence Container #34.
"While the Dashnaks [x-Soviet Armenian Government] were in power they
did everything in the world to keep the pot boiling by attacking Kurds,
Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages against the Moslems; by
massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying their homes. During
the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus have shown no
ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to govern or
handle other races under their power."
Source: General Bronsart wrote as follows in an article in the July 24,
1921 issue of the newspaper "Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung:"
"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the Turkish Army,
it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against
defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the
sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the
Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."
Source: John Dewey, "The Turkish Tragedy", The New Republic, Volume 40,
November 12, 1928, pp. 268-269.
"They [Armenians] boasted of having raised an army of one hundred
and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at
least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."
What a clown...Let us ask Armenian scholars - shall we?
Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.
"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the
Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character
notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian
Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the
southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia."
(See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of
Transcaucasia).
In 1920, '0' percent Turk.
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as
ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work
of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village.
Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts
into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable
and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets
completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They
found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border
into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole
length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to
Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain
plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of
Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for
howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the
scattered bones of the dead."
Ohanus Appressian
"Men Are Like That"
p. 202.
Just say so.
Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages).
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
"Foreword:"
"For example, we were camped one night in a half-ruined Tartar mosque,
the most habitable building of a destroyed village, near the border
of Persia and Russian Armenia. During the course of evening I asked
Ohanus if he could tell me anything of the history of the village and
the cause of its destruction. In his matter of fact way he replied, Yes,
I assisted in its sack and destruction, and witnessed the slaying of
those whose bones you saw to-day scattered among its ruins."
p. 202 (first and second paragraphs).
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as
ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work
of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village.
Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts
into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable
and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets
completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They
found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border
into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole
length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to
Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain
plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of
Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for
howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the
scattered bones of the dead."
p. 15 (second paragraph).
"The Tartars were, for the most part, poor. Some of them lived in villages
and cultivated small farms; many of them continued in the way of life of
their nomadic forefathers. They drove their flocks and herds from valley
to valley, from plain to mountain, and from mountain to plain, following
the pasturage as it changed with the seasons. They ranged from the salt
desert shores of the Caspian Sea far into the mighty Caucasus Mountains.
Even the village Tartars are a primitive people, only semicivilized."
"I can see now that we Armenians frankly despised the Tartars, and, while
holding a disproportionate share of the wealth of the country, regarded and
treated them as inferiors. The fact that the Russians looked down upon all
Armenians in much the same way as Armenians regarded Tartars, far from proving
a bond between ourselves and our racially different neighbors, intensified
an attitude and conduct on our part that served only to exacerbate hostility."
p. 20 (second paragraph).
"Our men armed themselves, gathered together and advanced on the Tartar
section of the village. There were no lights in the houses and the doors
were barred, for the Tartars suspected what as to happen and were in great
fear. Our men hammered on the doors, but got no response; whereupon they
smashed in the doors and began a carnage that continued until the last
Tartar was slain. Throughout the hideous night, I cowered at home in terror,
unable to shut my ears to the piercing screams of the helpless victims and
the loud shouts of our men. By morning the work was finished."
p. 109 (second paragraph).
"As things were, the members of the Dashnack Party were without administrative
experience; consequently the government they instituted quickly proved itself
incompetent to rule by legitimate means.
The members of the government had been revolutionists working in secret and
outside the law. When they became a legally instituted, recognized governing
body with the destiny of Armenia in their hands, they proved incompetent to
do better than resume the terrorist tactics that had characterized their
fight against the Russian and Turkish Governments in their outlaw days.
The outstanding feature of their rule, now that they were in power, was,
as in the old days, trial and execution without hearing. A man evoking
the displeasure of the government or of some official would be tried and
condemned without arrest or preference of charges against him. The method
of execution was for a government 'mauserist' to walk up behind the
condemned man in his home or on the street, place a pistol to the back
of his head and blow out his brains. This simple way of getting rid of
those who were undesirable in the view of the government and soon became
a common way of paying debts."
p. 203 (first paragraph).
"A soldier succeeded in driving his bayonet through the Tartar. I saw the
point of the weapon emerge through his back. ...Another soldier seized a rock
and pounded the Tartar's head with it... The Armenian who had bayoneted him
sprang to his feet, wrested the weapon from the Tartar's body, and, raising
it to his lips, licked it clean of blood, exclaiming in Russian, 'Slodkey!
Slodkey!' (Sweet.)"
p. 203 (second paragraph).
"One evening I passed through what had been a Tartar village. Among the
ruins a fire was burning. I went to the fire and saw seated about
it a group of soldiers. Among them were two Tartar girls, mere children.
The girls were crouched on the ground, crying softly with suppressed
sobs. Lying scattered over the ground were broken household utensils and
other furnishings of Tartar peasant homes. There were also bodies of the
dead."
p. 204 (first paragraph).
"I was soon asleep. In the night I was awakened by the persistent crying of
a child. I arose and went to investigate. A full moon enabled me to make
my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and litter of the tragedy
that had been enacted. Guided by the child's crying, I entered the yard of
a house, which I judged from its appearance must have been the home of a
Turkish family. There in a corner of the yard I found a women dead. Her
throat had been cut. Lying on her breast was a small child, a girl about a
year old."
p. 118.
"Slowly the train of oxcarts lumbered along through the snow, the cart
jolting and the loads swaying. Boys ran along the line of oxen, encouraging
them with shrill Tartar cries, and belaboring the beasts with sticks. In the
carts, the women, veiled as is the Tartar way, held children in their arms.
Wrapped in blankets and huddled among the goods that burdened the carts they
sought protection from the wind and cold. A few old men plodded along on foot.
Across the road through the ravine a barrier had been thrown. The leading
oxteam reached this barrier and halted. The gunmen and other ruffians
concealed among the rocks opened fire. Women and children leaped and
scrambled from the carts, screamed, ran and sought vainly for safety.
This massacre was not complete. The Armenian soldiers in the near-by
barracks, hearing the firing and the turmoil, hurried to the scene....
That same day the abandoned Tartar quarter of Alexandropol was looted
and completely destroyed."
p. 192.
"Great swarms of peasants who had come out of their hiding-places on the
retreat of the Turks followed our army as it advanced.... They entered
into the city with the army and immediately began plundering the stores
that had been left by the Turks."
p. 193.
"Terrible vengeance was taken upon Tartars, Kurds and Turks. Their villages
were destroyed and they themselves were slain or driven out of the country."
p. 195.
"The fanatical Dashnacks hated the Turks above all others and then in order
of diminishing intensity: Tartars, Kurds and Russians."
p. 218. (First and second paragraphs)
"Russian troops did terrible things in the Turkish villages...We Armenians
did not spare the Tartars....If persisted in, the slaughtering of prisoners,
the looting, and the rape and massacre of the helpless become commonplace
actions expected and accepted as a matter of course.
I have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground,
in numbers, like the fallen leaves in a forest. They had been as helpless
and as defenseless as sheep. They had not died as soldiers die in the
heat of battle, fired with ardor and courage, with weapons in their hands,
and exchanging blow for blow. They had died as the helpless must, with
their hearts and brains bursting with horror worse than death itself."
p. 133 (first paragraph)
"In this movement we took with us three thousand Turkish soldiers who
had been captured by the Russians and left on our hands when the Russians
abandoned the struggle. During our retreat to Karaklis two thousand of
these poor devils were cruelly put to death. I was sickened by the
brutality displayed, but could not make any effective protest. Some,
mercifully, were shot. Many of them were burned to death. The method
employed was to put a quantity of straw into a hut, and then after
crowding the hut with Turks, set fire to the straw."
p. 19 (first paragraph)
"The Tartar section of the town no longer existed, except as a pile of
ruins. It had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered. The same
fate befell the Tartar section of Khankandi."
p. 22 (second paragraph)
"Many of our men had served in the Russian Army, and were trained soldiers.
We Armenians were rich and possessed arms. Tartars had never received
military training. They were poor, and possessed few arms beyond knives.
...Shortly after the killing of the Tartars in our village, the revolution
in Russia was suppressed."
p. 97 (third paragraph)
"Within a few years, following the beginning of the movement, an invisible
government of Armenians by Armenians had been established in Turkish
Armenia in armed opposition to the Turkish Government. This secret
government had its own courts and laws and an army of assassins called
'Mauserists' (professional killers) to enforce its decrees."
p. 98 (first paragraph)
"The Dashnacks were in continual open rebellion against the Turkish
Government."
p. 98 (third paragraph)
"...the Dashnacks engineered a general revolt of Armenians in Turkish
Armenia under the mistaken belief that European nations would intervene
and secure independence for Turkish Armenia."
p. 99 (second paragraph)
"The Dashnacks were fanatics."
p. 99 (third paragraph)
"The Dashnacks took advantage of this situation and extended their
revolutionary activities into the Russian province. They instituted
a campaign of terrorism and employed threats and force in securing
contributions to the party funds from rich Armenians. A wealthy
man would be assessed a stipulated sum. Refusal to pay brought upon
him a sentence of death.
Every member of the party was pledged to carry out orders without
question. If a man were to be assassinated, lots might be drawn to
select an executioner or the job might be assigned to one of the
'mauserists' of the party."
p. 130 (first paragraph)
"...in moments of victory against Turks and Kurds or Tartars, they
[Armenians] have been remorseless in seeking vengeance."
p. 130 (third paragraph)
"The city was a scene of confusion and terror. During the early days of
the war, when the Russian troops invaded Turkey, large numbers of the
Turkish population abandoned their homes and fled before the Russian
advance."
p. 159 (second paragraph)
"I made a cannon, a huge gun to lift which required four men. I made balls
for it. With my cannon the Armenians could knock down any of the Tartar
houses and so they were able to drive the Tartars out."
p. 181 (first paragraph)
"The Tartar villages were in ruins."
p. 189 (third paragraph)
"The dead Tartar lay with his head in a pool of mud and blood, his
beard still setaceous and now crimsoned."
Need I go on?
Serdar Argic | 5 |
5,389 | ==========================================================================
Yes, we do have a beautiful country. And I enjoy it. Most of all, I
enjoy the thought that I have the means and can exercise my rights
to defend me and mine.
And I want to thank all of you good folks, like Prescod, who remind me
of what I have. Along this line, I watched a documentary on one of the
Nazi concentration camps. Stacks and stacks of bodies. There were scenes
of Hitler speechifying, and what struck me, was the reverence and adoration
on the faces of the people in the crowds. I guess they were happy that
Hitler had implemented full gun control and was taking care of the Jewish
problem all at the same time. | 5 |
7,209 | In <C601ED.CD6@cpqhou.se.hou.compaq.com>, thomasr@cpqhou.se.hou.compaq.com sez:
This is all terribly interesting, but it doesn't belong in misc.legal.
Take it elsewhere, please.
--
Have you hugged your common nucleus of operative fact today? | 5 |
7,196 |
Thomas Jefferson is rolling over in his grave because the
university is making rules about sex.
Doesn't UVA also have a hate crimes rule on the books?
Adam
Adam Shostack adam@das.harvard.edu | 5 |
5,438 |
Firearm? Let's not even consider long knives (swords), which were also
common militia weapons in the 18th century, and which, if anything, are
often restricted more heavily than firearms. Whatever sense gun control
makes, knife control makes even less.
-- | 5 |
3,198 |
Hehehe! Dontcha just love these carefully constructed arguements?
Clayton, babe, please define the word `molest`. Are you using a legal
term or a proper dictionary term? Molest, as far as I can remember, means
`to do damage to person(s)`. My mate, Mike, was lured into a woman's parlour
when he was 14. Is that molestation? A number of my friends (straight) lost
their virginity before that. Were they 'molested'? They told me that they
thoroughly enjoyed the experience. I see no damage.
Please stop pushing your objective morality on others. If you push, people won't
fall over and say 'Ye gads, you're right!', they'll just push back.
Have you signed up for that logic course yet?
| 5 |
2,647 | # Mr Cramer-
#
# You are on one hand condemning the news media as;
#
# "The Role of the National News Media in Inflaming Passions" that
# was your message subject I believe.
#
# Then you turn around and actually take; From the Santa Rosa (Cal.) Press-Democrat,
# April 15, 1993, p. B2:
#
# Male sex survey: Gay activity low title.
#
# You even use such a title for the San Jose Mercury News- the Murky News.
#
# Now which is it? Are you going to comdemn national media, then turn around
# and use it to support some position you present? Seems somewhat contradictory
# doesn't it.
If you can show me that the Press-Democrat misrepresented the Guttmacher
Institute's study, do so. | 5 |
4,684 | I need quotes from Jefferson, Hamilton, Madison, or any of the other founders,
that support the idea that the Second Amendment was written into the
Constitution so that the populace could protect itself it the government
began to degenerate into tyrrany. If you have any (with sources), please
mail them to me. Thanks.
| 5 |
3,534 | : The median of a distribution is that variate-value which divides the
: distribution halfway, i.e. 1/2 of the distribution (population) have
: lower and half have higher variate-values.
: So for Males 20-39 the median=7.3, this means that half of these men
: are higher than this and half are lower than this. Now if the population
: sample size is 3300, and 1% of them are gay, 33 males are gay. If we
: say they are distributed equally then only 16.5 are greater than 7.3
: sexual partners, of course, this means that 49.5% heterosexual men are
: greater than 7.3.
Not quite. First, the median does not imply that half of the men are
above and half below 7.3: it simply means that 7.3 is the mid-point
between the maximum number of partners and the minimum (which is most
likely zero). However, assuming your implication to be more-or-less
correct, your final result is still invalid. If 50% of *all* males
have had more than 7.3 partners, and you deduct the assumed 1% of
homosexual males, what remains is not 49.5%, but still *50%* of all
*heterosexual* males. Which is to say: hey, we're all human. | 5 |
4,660 |
[...deleted...]
At least you're consistent. I'm sure the highly propagandized Germans
tended to believe their government's version too in the thirties and
forties as those "different" highly demonized Jewish "cultists" met
their fate. Always trust your government.
| 5 |
6,437 |
For starters, they could have gone on waiting and negotiating. The Davidians
weren't going anywhere, and their supplies had to be limited. Large, perhaps,
but limited. If they had simply fired the compound by themselves without
gov't tanks smashing down their walls, then at least the gov't would not be
guilty of having _again_ used an inappropriate level of force, and would have
been able to use the meantime to continue to pressure and negotiate. No, they
would not have looked good on the news in six months or a year. But they sure
as hell don't look very good now.
Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com) No, I don't speak for Cabletron. Need you ask? | 5 |
1,199 | rja@mahogany126.cray.com (Russ Anderson) writes...
The fact is that Koresh and his followers involved themselves
in a gun battle to control the Mt Carmel complex. That is not
in dispute. From what I remember of the trial, the authories
couldn't reasonably establish who fired first, the big reason
behind the aquittal.
_____ _____
\\\\\\/ ___/___________________
Mitchell S Todd \\\\/ / _____/__________________________
________________ \\/ / mst4298@zeus._____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_'_/
\_____ \__ / / tamu.edu _____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_/
\__________\__ / / _____/_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_/
\_ / /__________/
\/____/\\\\\\
\\\\\\ | 5 |
5,853 |
Good grief! I do believe that for once you may have an argument which may
be discussed intelligently!
I guess that you are a person who dislikes contact with people of ethnic
minority. However, your argument again falls flat on its face. You state
that you, under an anti-discrimination bill, would be forced to associate
with others [homosexuals, I assume] against your will. How do you know that
you do not associate with them now, except they may be closeted? Would you
like to change your argument to read "forced to associate with truthfully
homosexual people against my will"? You have no proof that anyone you
now know may not be homosexual and this punches a large hole in your
argument. Is it your belief that a homosexual comes in only one flavour (sic)
and that is the camp mincing type? Prove it. You cannot.
I must admit though, that it looks as if you actually thought about your response
this time instead of just raving.
| 5 |
4,210 | I agree with you Harry, however you must also concede then that
Arab terrorism is also a tragedy of war. remember that the
Palestinians have no other effective target but civilians in
order to further their cause. If Irgun had to attack civilian
targets to terrorize in order that they might obtain some
objective, I'm sure they would have done so. I also don't
exclude Irgun's action against British soldiers as terrorism.
The British were showing signs of favoring a compromise with
regards to Palestine, and the Irgun and branch off groups made
a point to kill young British recruits so that mothers and
fathers back in Britain would get angry at Britains continued
presence in Palestine. Sounds like a form of terrorism to me,
and not much removed from Arab terrorism. We must not also
forget that Irgun, or Irgun branch off groups [more likely]
killed many jews who were not as hardline zionist as they, or
who cooperated with the British.
I'll reiterate again.... both sides are screwy, but
I'll favor the underdog in this case because I do think they
were a bit screwed.
| 5 |
5,722 |
The first thing I would do would be to disband Medicare and Medicade! They
are a primary reason why health care costs are going up. To cover the people
that are currently on these programs, I would sell their coverage in blocks
to insurance companies. The private companies would bid to get these large
blocks of people, and prices would go down.
To get away from strong federal control on health care, I would pass off
more control to the states. Everyone is always spewing forth about how
wonderful Hawaii is doing. Well, how about giving some other STATES incentive
to try their own plans
What I would NOT do is try to implement some far reaching federal program
program to cover all Americans, because this is the surest way to fail!
One sure way to stop throwing money away is to stop giving so much to the
federal government. Our FEDERAL taxes should be slashed, and our STATE taxes
increased. A strong central government always fails. Give power back to the
states/counties/cities, where it belongs.
| 5 |
3,948 |
You know, you have a point here, but don't stop with African Americans...
When I was in high school in the early 1980s, on various occasions I had
knives pulled on me, had friends who were stabbed, and I was beaten up
repeatedly by those that couldn't accept me as different. And don't
let the teachers off the hook either. On many many occasions, there
were teachers that either resented me or were too scared out of their
wits by the bullies to even stop the people who attacked me and they
would just watch quietly... All of this was in a nice white middle
class high school. In fact, we were so nice and white that we made
sure that the one black kid in my class was unable to go to the prom
with his white girlfriend... This isn't a race thing, it's the
way public schools seem to be run...
I'd hate to be in high school right now... At least I didn't have
to deal with guns, just the roving psycho-drug-dorks and the jocks-
without-a-future-but-with-plenty-of-testosterone...
I'd separate everyone who wants to learn from these assholes... But hey,
the valuelessness of learning and glorification of jocks is an American
tradition, you think anything is going to change? If you have kids,
take 'em out of the public school system and educate them yourself...
That's what I'll do if I ever have them... I wouldn't wish what I went
through upon any kid... Maybe on some of their parents though... | 5 |
2,695 |
So far, the medical examiner (according to the news) has found NO EVIDENCE
of gunshot wounds in bodies so far examined. If this continues to be
the case, it will sort of shoot holes (pun intended) in the FBI story,
wouldn't it? And cartridges going off outside a firearm do not launch
a bullet like they do when fired from a gun. The bullet hardly moves,
it is the brass casing that goes flying, and then with less than lethal
force. It will hurt, yes, but not KILL you - I doubt if it wil penetrate
a coat, for example.
How about an INDEPENDENT investigation, with full subpoena powers, and
powers to prosecute on felony charges, to investigate for any possible
illegal/criminal activity on the part of both the BATF and FBI? I
cannot see any reason why not - to use the phrase they like to use
so often, "if they have nothing to hide..." they should welcome it,
and vigorously support it. Note that an internal investigation by the
Dept of Justice is NOT an independent investigation...
| 5 |
1,162 |
yodicet>
yodicet>
yodicet>
Hmm. You don't say..
L.
"Yeh, Buddy.. | larry@psl.nmsu.edu (Larry Cunningham)| _~~_
I've got your COMPUTER! | % Physical Science Laboratory | (O)(-)
Right HERE!!" | New Mexico State University | /..\
(computer THIS!) | Las Cruces, New Mexico, USA 88003 | <> | 5 |
5,385 | t
The original poster never said they were afraid of King because he was
black. In fact the officers were afraid of King because of WHAT HE DID,
not because OF THE COLOR OF HIS SKIN. It is you, Mr. Frank that read the
phrase "large black man" and cried racism in a typical knee-jerk fashion.
When you (and others, I suspect) can get past this problem maybe the real
problems in this issue can be discussed. | 5 |
6,320 |
How about a gun buy-back/charity? Get some sponsors to fund the
purchase of used firearms, have a gunsmith check them over, and give
or sell them at a low price to poor persons wishing to own firearms. ;-)
[OK, you guys can work out the details of who is "needy", etc...]
--
Charles Scripter * cescript@phy.mtu.edu
Dept of Physics, Michigan Tech, Houghton, MI 49931 | 5 |
4,950 | I haven't recognized any names from previous discussions, but I do
notice that there are a few who blame Clinton for the actions of the
BATF in Waco. Unless you felt the same way about what we did under
Bush's *direct* command in Panama, it's just partisan whining. Which is
what I expect most of it to be. I can see no way to condemn one and not
the other.
But I'm sure some Limbot will tell me how killing thousands of
Panamanian civilians to serve an arrest warrant is much better than
allowing 80 religious fanatics to commit suicide following a botched
attempt by the BATF to serve a search warrant. | 5 |
5,484 |
Infact on tuesday, the Bosnian foreign minister asked formally the UN to leave Bosnia,
just to show how much hypocracy is there in Europe. These so called UN is actually
helping Serbs carry out their etnic-clensing/murders/rapes. In Zepa the UN effectively
helped the Serbs carry out their heinous crimes by spreading conflicting reports that
nothing was going on there. The cowards, or so called UN peacemakers, only "attempted" to
go out there for a fact finding mission -as if with all the ham-radio operators were lying
and all the US war planes out there have no means of flying over there. This is the biggest
farce in the history of the world and the same act has been repeated over and over again in
different beseiged Bosnian towns....
Yes! I heard today that the president of Bosnia- under pressure from the "civilized nations"
has appealed to the UN to stay there in Bosnia. He should know better..
These hypocrates (Sadly! it includes Clinton administration too) all came out and said
that the call for a referendum from bosnian serbian perliment (or a bunch of
rapists/criminals) is a farce and yet they have to wait for the result of this referendum
to act....
For those of you who are against US to commit ground troops, fine just lift the arms-embargo on BOTH
sides (since we know that serbs always got the heavy weapons form federal army).
Wake up West!! and admit that you are the most uncivilized, the most hypocratic and the most violent
bunch on this earth...
-Khalid
| 5 |
326 |
A search for illegally held weapons (IF there were any, no evidence yet
produced to this effect) does not justify firing into a house with
women and children, either. It also does not justify shooting first
without identifying oneself (the ATF and FBI have done this before, so
don't say they haven't, please) or producing a warrant.
Guess it depends on whose story one believes, huh?
Which "others" are we talking about here?
"Sub lethal"? Excuse me, but those people are dead!!!
Evidence? So far the FBI has produced none. Don't hold your breath.
Only a few of those being held in chains and s(hackles are wanted .
The rest are being held for the crime of being "material witnesses".
It was not the Feds decision to make, but the firefighters.
This is true of ANY answer to a call for help from a fire department by
ANY citizen. Since fire departments do answer calls that "deprive
resources that might be needed elsewhere" it is not a valid reason for
not calling them.
Further, since the Davidians had not been found guilty of any crime in
a court of law, they are subject to the same protection as any other
citizen. And las far as I know, even criminals in prison are not left to
burn to death in a fire.
I guess this is a matter of religious faith with you? The government
says it, so it must be so? Or haven't you been reading this thread well
enough to notice that some of us here don't beleive their story?
Patients in psychiatric hospitals are not left to die in fires, either.
Besides, as I explained, some of us here believe their distress might
have been genuine. Are you SO certain it wasn't?
There is no evidence that the Davidians committed human sacrifice
either before of after the initial raid. And self-defense is not
murder.
He did not say it was deliberate. Accidents do not require conspiracy
theories, only wanton disregard for human life. The initial raid alone
(agents firing blind into walls against all standards of law enforce-
ment procedure) proves they did not mind killing people.
No one here is "supporting Koresh". We are opposing the illegal use of
excessive violence by our government against our citizens. That is all.
A society that believes it is OK to terrorize people for their religious
views will destroy itself in due time. It is the feds who disrupted the
"fabric of society" in Waco, not Koresh. It is the feds who forced a
nightmare onto the people of Mount Carmel.
On what basis do you assume we haven't? Don't you really mean
"It would be a good thing if people drew the same conclusions from
history that I do?" :-)
"Militant" implies acts of aggression against one's neighbors. The
Davidians left their neighbors alone.
.religious heretics who left to set up such a community
So what? The Mormons were considered a "cult" for years, and were chased
out of one place after another on much the same thinking as you are
advocating. When they finally got to "set up a community" they left
people alone. So far Americans haven't been put to the sword by Mormon
hordes crying to avenge Joseph Smith. :-)
It doesn't mean they won't either. Anyway, the whole purpose of a
system of laws is to punish people for what they DO, not what they
MIGHT do.
"Telling" is not the same as "forcing". When the police knock at my
door, I cannot make them go away by changing the channeI. As for Pat
and friends, I don't even WATCH their channel, since I am an atheist.
So far, not watching them tell me what to do hasn't gotten me killed :-)
Right now, the only people sticking guns in anyone's faces is the
government. And they are trying very hard to run my life. Or
haven't you noticed?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------- | 5 |
4,345 |
Give ME a break, chum. Are you telling me that Clinton and
Reno DID NOT KNOW that the BATF actions were ILLEGAL, adn
in VIOLATION of their warrant?
| 5 |
6,910 | The Waco/Whacko Bar-B-Q caused me to remember an official explanation
from the Vietnam War. The 90s, liberal version is:
"It was necessary to incinerate the children in order to save them." | 5 |
603 | Heil Ajami!, or do you prefer
Heil Martillo! or
Heil Santos! or
Heil Carlo! or
Heil Joachim!<- This I would suggest against, it sounds too informal, mein
fuhrer! | 5 |
5,880 |
These surviving witnesses being members of which cult pray tell ??
We were having a discussion about whether Bush would have done anything
differently. On the basis of Panama, Grenada, Tripoli, Kewait etc we
decided that Bush would have asked for a surgical airstrike or used a
cruise missile, some people suggested that he would have used the nuke
warhead cruise, others pointed out that he would be too cheap to use 'em.
What was missing? Armoured vehicles!
The person who murdered 17 children was Koresh. He kept them there and
brought about their deaths deliberately.
You may consider that I am a complete bastard and a not very nice chap.
Thats quite true. I don't pretend to be. Being nice is what amateurs
try to do. If you want to talk politics you are talking hard decisions
such as whether the lives of the troops should be risked attempting
to rescue the children. Anyone who has held the office of President
of the United States since FDR has held the threat that if the USA
or its allies were to be threatened then the USA would risk nuclear
Holocaust in order to protect freedom. Beleive it or not, that is not
the sort of threat that nice chaps make. Do they have a gun nutters
section of the US version of CND by any chance?
There are cases where society has to be protected from
madmen such as Koresh or Hitler. If it were not for the consideration
of the 17 children in there the question of the tactics to be used would
not be a matter of anything but academic significance. It is not for
the govt to prevent people from commiting mass suicide.
The latest reports are that cult members were shot attempting to
leave the compound by Koresh loyalists during the fire. If proven
that would entail the final nail in the coffin of those who want to
promote Koresh as some sort of role model or hero.
I need hardly add that it is Koresh that has created the Holocaust in
this case by the deliberate arson of the ranch appocalypse.
| 5 |
2,668 | tha
Any death is serious. Wanna discuss match control? Firearms related
unintentional deaths among children ages 14 and under are the fault of one or
more negligent persons, not the gun.
Providing false hope, then, is the intent?
200% increase in California schools, eh? Gun control is working fine, there!
So your religion is different. Does that make it his wrong? Even assuming
Koresh actually made that decision, and the verdict is still out on that.
Jim
--
jmd@handheld.com | 5 |
6,792 |
Why? There is no need to go into this.......
especially this rivetting piece of information.
As I remember, someone did ask if UV had a speach code. But, really,
there is no need for this brief survey course.
How wonderful for you.
| 5 |
5,067 |
Yeah right, sorta like the Indian sub-contient, eh? | 5 |
3,493 | # ## Ahh, what's good for the goose is not necessarily what's good for
# ## the gander. You don't want homosexuals to impose their moral codes
# ## (such diabolical ideas as equal rights) on you, yet you are willing
# ## to impose your moral codes on them. Do I detect a double standard?
# ##
# ## -garison
#
# #What do you mean? If adults want to get together for sodomy in
# #private, that's their business.
#
# And that's precisely what they do. So what's your problem with the queer
# population, boyo? The only difference between us is what we do in
# private--who we love.
#
# ----bi Andrew D. Simchik SCHNOPIA!
Do it in private, and it won't be a problem. But the reason that
the homosexual activists are so hot on antidiscrimination laws is
that they want:
1. To be able to wear that lovely chiffon evening gown to work, and
not have people get disgusted;
2. To be able to wear their NAMBLA T-shirt and not worry about
getting fired;
3. To be able to have access to young boys, so that they start
making the next generation of homosexuals.
If your right to privacy is what makes sodomy laws unconstitutional
(a position that I agree with), then keep it private, and there
won't be a problem. | 5 |
57 |
Quite a few people couldn't have cared less about what
happened to the Jews of Europe. If they had cared, they would have
done something.
Maybe its because many of us, who have been on usenet for
several years remember tripe like this being posted:
-------------
This was posted fairly recently. There has been much more
racist stuff in the past. Why are we expected to listen to it and
remain "calm?" I don't think that listening to racist or anti-semetic
slurs is an incitement to calm debate.
Perhaps you don't mean to be coming off as highly offensive.
However, the way you have posted seems to be typical of those who have
an irrational dislike for Israel and Jews. Perhaps if you took a
close look at what you've posted thought a bit about the combatative
tone you've used, you would see why people are reacting the way they
are.
Adam Shostack adam@das.harvard.edu | 5 |
3,947 |
A very well put together post. I disagree with several key points, but the
post is an excellent one with which to "engage in discourse":
>There has been much discussion recently about the right to
>freedom of association. Mr. Cramer and Mr. Ronzone appear to
>take an absolutist position on this right--that it is a
>fundamental human right, perhaps the fundamental human right,
>and that it supersedes other rights, such as the right to an
>equal opportunity. Others feel that a right to an equal
>opportunity outweighs the right to freedom of association,
>and thus we have the never-ending debate that flares up
>repeatedly.
Freedom of Association (FOA) involves the MUTUAL and VOLUNTARY agreement of
two or more people.
Right to Equal Opportunity (lets call it REO) involves coercion in all cases
(by definition).
>A major problem is that neither of these rights are
>explicitly declared or protected in the Constitution or in
>the Declaration of Independence, although both can be derived
>from these documents. Unfortunately, this means that the
>debate will never end, because neither side can conclu-
>sively prove the validity of their view--it becomes solely a
>matter of personal philosophy.
Yes, there is much debate. But no, it can end, with once and for all
recognition of these rights. (Well, not totally 100% perfect end, but end
in the same way that there is no worldwide disagreement that say, murder, is
a crime).
>My personal opinion is that the real answer lies somewhere in
>between. I regard both of these rights as fundamental human
>rights which, unfortu- nately, come into direct conflict with
>one another. Which is stronger depends on the given
>situation.
Hmm, there is even MORE discusion about religion. Should we take a
"somewhere in between" approach towards the State & a State recognized
religion? The first amendment, is so, uh, so absolutist you know.
>For example, if the owner of a "mom-and-pop" store wishes to
>hire an employee to help out, their right to freedom of
>association outweighs the rights of their job applicants to
>an equal opportunity. They should be free to hire whomever
>they choose, using whatever criteria they choose, without any
>government intervention at all.
>
>Similarly, if a family wishes to rent out a bedroom in their
>home, or a garage apartment, or something similar, then their
>right to freedom of association outweighs the rights of their
>prospective tenants to an equal opportunity.
>
>If, on the other hand, IBM, a multi-national corporation with
>275,000 employees, publicly owned, and operated by a board of
>directors, wishes to hire additional employees, then whose
>freedom of association are we protecting? The board of
>directors? The other employees? The owners of the stock? In
>this case, the applicant's right to an equal opportunity
>outweighs the right to freedom of association, and we, as a
>society, can ask IBM to use only those criteria which are
>relevant to the specific task.
Why? Says who? Why can mon & pop have FOA, but IBM be forced, and force is
the correct word here, to have REO? As purchase of IBM is voluntary, then
there are very well defined procedures on how IBM chooses to do some things
and chooses to do other things. Why not let those same procedures work for
employment policies?
>Similarly, if a landlord owns a number of apartment buildings
>in which he does not live, and which are managed by an
>independent management agency, then whose freedom of
>association are we protecting? If the owner does not live in
>his buildings and has no contact with his tenants, then the
>prospective tenant's right to an equal opportunity outweighs
>the right to freedom of association, and we, as a society,
>can ask the owner to use only those criteria which are
>relevant to "good" tenants. (I've put "good" in quotation
>marks because I really don't want to be drawn off into the
>side issue of what constitutes a good tenant.)
Why does this tenant have an "option" (I won't call it a right) to destroy
the FOA of the landlord? If the landlord and the tenant can't agree, then they
both can cease from using each other's property.
Suddenly, by arm waving, by magic, a landlord does not have FOA. And on what
basis does the FOA of the landlord "disappear"?
It seems that vague terms like "no contact with tenants" suffice.
Well, I think FOA is one our most important rightts (in the top 2-3), and by
golly, if the State is going to make it suffer, I sure would like to see the
heinous crime that justifies the removal of this right.
I don't think "no contact" with the tenats is even a crime, much less something
that should cause severe interference with important rights.
>I suspect that the majority of the people in this country
>agree with my position on these extreme cases, particularly
>if they are presented in this manner. I don't know if Mr.
>Ronzone or Mr. Cramer would agree--I suspect not. In any
>case, additional problems arise when we try to apply
>guidelines for the middle ground. What if the company has 10
>employees, or 100, or 1000? Where do we draw the line between
>protecting the right to freedom of association and protecting
>the right to an equal opportunity?
Rights are not defined by majority/mob choice. FOA is an absolute. REO
is a fancy name for thuggery, for racism, and coercion.
>The difficulty is that any line we draw will, of necessity,
>be artificial. And any legislation resulting will be flawed.
>In the past, the government has usually tried to pass laws
>which referred to the number of employees hired by the
>company--e.g., any company with more than xxx employees was
>affected by the law. Those with fewer were unaffected.
Of course it would be. You dimly see that the line must be artifiacial, because
FOA is the only right. Just like a State religion -- you can't jsutify that
either.
>Generally, I believe that if we do not have any regulations
>affecting these rights, then the right to freedom of
>association will be stronger. On the other hand, many of the
>regulations protect the right to an equal opportunity too
>much, weakening the right to freedom of association.
>
>I don't believe there is a satisfactory solution which will
>please everybody. A solution that I came up with is to use
>publicly owned vs. privately owned as the dividing line. If
>the company remains privately owned, then the owners should
>be free to do whatever they want with their company. If the
>company becomes publicly owned, then the public has a right
>to ask the company to submit to additional regulation.
Why? I assume that when you say "publicly owned", you are talking about those
quasi-State companys that do NOT have shareholders.
The companies on the Fortune 500, for example, are all privately owned. They
can give you a list of all of their owners. They have no "anonymous",
unknown to them, owners.
>By the way, the above analysis is based on the assumption
>that the right to freedom of association and the right to an
>equal opportunity are both fundamental human rights of equal
>importance. Since this is entirely a matter of faith, not
>subject to any "proof", I do not choose to even try to
>establish this. You either accept it or you don't.
>
>Any comments?
FOA can be derived by any two rational people, on a basis that neither has
evil, malicious, or murderous intent towards the others.
In short, agreement is mutual, or not at all.
Your REO on the other hand, lives only by accepting coercion, the gun, into
the situation. And that is self-destructive of the whole argument, because it
is based only on might makes right. Sort of like saying, "nobody has a right
to live", whereupon I whip out a gun and shoot you dead -- end of argument.
--
There are actually people that STILL believe Love Canal was some kind of
environmental disaster. Weird, eh? | 5 |
4,128 |
Out and out lie. Not substantiated. I do not understand statments
like these. Please stop making such ridiculous claims. Maybe you
should consider working for or getting your information from the
National Inquirer for now on.
Ahh! Rabbit from a hat. Here is another desperate step to discount
any activity of the Washington Gay March.
| 5 |
6,755 | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What kind of ranking system is used?
| 5 |
4,961 |
Whoa. Think twice, now, unless you want the same standards applied to
hollowpoints...
-- | 5 |
6,851 |
Know any Mormons?
Know for a fact that this was happening? State of Texas says it wasn't,
and they held a trial to prove it.
Sure we can. The top two things are perfectly legal. The bottom one
isn't. The person here who can't distinguish seems to be you.
So the constitution is only for people you approve of. Fine, fine.
I usually refer to that as "elitism," because "bigotry" is so negative.
Knowing that people like you are out there really gives me warm fuzzies.
-- | 5 |
6,899 |
*sigh*
It is standard procedure to suspend law enforcement officers, or re-assign
them to administrative (non enforcement) duties, while an investigation
into possible misconduct is going on. The Administration has given no
indication that such suspensions will occur in this case. And given that
the president, attorney general and governor were all involved in the
decisions that led to the Waco Massacre, they should also suspend all
activities regarding law enforcement. Given their positions, that equates
to an enforced vacation.
| 5 |
2,674 | %
%By Elias Davidsson - April 1991 (Revision Oct. 1991)
Note - you are already posting "facts", some of which are outdated.
The biased presentation of facts, as well as the conclusions that
you reach leave me little hope of engaging in any fruitful
exchange that might lead to a "meeting of the minds". It is to those
who read with open mind, that I address myself.
%The International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of
%Racial Discrimination adopted by the General Assembly of the
%United Nations in 1965, has now been ratified by most member
%states. Article 1 of this Convention defines the term racial
%discrimination as "any distinction, exclusion, restriction or
%preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic
%origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing
%the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of
%human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic,
%social, cultural or any other field of public life."
While the ideals embodied in this text are worthy goals,
as the text currently stands I know of no country in which
racial discrimination of some sort can not be found.
It makes no mention of the need for for a legislative
violation.
%The General Assembly endorsed in 1975 a resolution defining
%Zionism as a form of racism and racial discrimination. The
%important, correct and legitimate resolution is incomplete since
%it does not include operative statements designed to end Israeli
%racial discrimination. Meanwhile the United States, on behalf of
%Israel, are exerting heavy pressure on member states of the United
%Nations to repeal this resolution and give Israeli racial
%practices - Zionism - moral legitimacy.
If you are, in principle, advocating UN intervention via operative
statements in this case, it must therefore hold that they can be
applied to any other case where the council perceives some form
of racial discrimination as previously exhibited.
Scarey thought.
%The very definition of Israel as a State belonging to the Jews of
%the world (but not to its inhabitants), alienates all native
%non-Jews born in that country.
Actually, I know quite a few native non-Jews born in Israel that are not
alienated by this law. If you had said some, you would probably be
correct, however your tendency to exagerate and slant facts becomes
apparent. This slant permeates the text.
%Practically all non-Jews who are living in or originate from areas
%under Israeli control, identify themselves as Palestinians. Most
%of them are Muslim, many are Christian. A few Jews, including the
%author of these lines, also identify themselves as Palestinians.
The above statement is not true. Practically all - discounting
Beduins, Circassians, Druze, and some other fringe groups.
Your own identification is a matter that has no bearing upon the
issue. You could equally identify yourself as a [insert group].
%Zionism took off in Europe at the end of last century. It's aim
%was to create a Jewish state in Palestine in spite of the adamant
%opposition of Palestinian Arabs (95% of the population).
If I recall correctly, at the time "zionism" took off, there
was no adamant opposition in Palestine. I am open to any
factual contradictory evidence .
%But the
%Zionists were more powerful, militarily, economically and
%technologically, and succeeded in 1948 in conquering 70% of the
%area of Mandatory Palestine. After driving into exile most native
%Arabs from the conquered areas, approximately 750,000 people, and
%razing most of their villages to the ground, the Zionists could
%finally establish a predominantly Jewish State. Only 150,000
%non-Jews remained on Israeli territory.
Do you therefore contend that the 400 villages you mention further on "most
of their villages"?
%Once the Jewish State was established, it began enacting laws to
%help the confiscation of land from native non-Jews, their
%political repression and their destitution.
There is no doubt that laws passed provided a framework which was later
used for these purposes. However, you seem to imply that this was the
intention a priori, which implies a policy and agenda. My knowledge was
that this was not the case.
You also neglect to mention the circumstances that surrounded
this. As you do again, below.
%In 1967 the State of Israel invaded Egypt and Syria and occupied
%the rest of Palestine (the West Bank and the Gaza strip). Thus
%another 1.5 million Palestinians fell under its juridiction. Its
%occupation of Palestinian and other Arab territories is considered
%illegal by the international community, as reflected in Security
%Council resolutions. Israel has rejected all U.N. resolutions and
%began without delay to entrench its occupation and rule over these
%territories with the aim of annexing them at the appropriate time.
Not quite accurate. Israel has not rejected all the resolutions,
though it has conflicting understanding with regards to some of them.
Israel never annexed the Sinai, West Bank, or Gaza. The other
annexations were brought about partly due to the UN resolutions.
%Part of these territores, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights,
%have already been forcefully annexed by Israel, in defiance of
%international law and UN resolutions.
Out of curiousity, provided that the annexees are granted citizenship,
what int'l law do you claim prohibits annexation of territories
captured in war? Has this ever been applied to any other country
previously (other than Iraq) ?
%It must be emphasized that, although these people live under
%different regimes, they are united in their self-perception as
%Palestinians, that is as people identifying with Palestine, a
%territorial entity (not an ethnic or religious entity).
Incorrect! Palestinians themselves claim to be discriminated against
on an "ethnic or racial" basis. Therefore your above statement is
incorrect.
I also note that given the previous definition of racial discrimination,
the only means that you could argue for that is nationalistically.
However, no such nation has existed. It definitely did not exist
at the time of the creation of Israel, in which case you can not
argue racial discrimination during that period!
%Furthermore Palestinians generally consider the PLO both as a
%symbol of national identity and as the unchallenged authority that
%represents them in world affairs.
Once again, some do, some don't.
%The non-Jewish population living in the Palestinian and other Arab
%territories occupied by Israel in 1967 suffers not only blatant
%discrimination but is subject to brutal military occupation.
Another generalization, but then again, you don't seem to care
about anyone other than the Palestinian people, whose cause you
espouse.
%licence, to start a business and to buy industrial equipment, the
%right to educate children, all of these basic rights are subject
%to arbitrary rulings by military authorities and cannot be
%challenged in court.
Incorrect once again. They have the ability to appeal.
Furthermore, although you may not agree with them, not all
of the military rulings are senseless or arbitrary. Some
are, but this is not due to the "whims" of the military as
much as the sizeof the task/organization.
%Only Jewish inhabitants of the occupied
%territories are permitted to carry firearms.
Incorrect once again. I know two Arab policemen who lived in
Daheisha and there were more. Of course, with the outbreak of
the intifada they were forced by the locals to resign, bitterly.
%Jewish settlers have
%right to 6-7 more water per person than non-Jews. Jewish residents
%of these territories number now about 100,000 people. It is Israel
%governmentUs policy to increase this number substantially, in
%total defiance of international law, UN resolutions and the will
%of the population. The State of Israel systematically confiscates
%land from non-Jewish inhabitants of these territories for Jewish
%settlement.
That is no longer true, and I can't help but wonder what your
purpose is/was in posting this.
%Some 800,000 people in Israel proper,are not Jews. Most of them
%consider themselves Palestinians with Israeli citizenship. For
%many years after the establishment of Israel they were subjected
%to harsh military control. Much of their land was confiscated by
%the State and handed to Jewish organisations for exclusive Jewish
%settlement. They have been subject to massacres, destitution and
%humiliation. While they enjoy, with Jewish Israelis, the right to
%vote, they are discriminated against both through law and in
%practice.
Once again, to hell with the other minorities that don't fit in,
right? Their are many villages who did not suffer in the way
you seem to indicate, Abu Gosh comes to mind. Yes, some did but
as a result of what actions?
%Approximately 92% of the surface of the State of Israel within the
%Rgreen lineS is for all purposes closed to Palestinians who are
%second-class citizens in Israel. They may neither legally live on
%such land, nor rent or cultivate it. A direct effect of these
%policies is that native non-Jewish citizens of Israel are denied
%residence and membership rights in most rural communities in
%Israel, including the collective settlements, kibbutzim. Non-Jews
%are discriminated against in many other ways: The Government
%starves local authorities of Palestinian villages and townships of
%funds; Jewish city councils force Palestinians to live in ghettos;
%Jewish families receive higher child allocations than their
%non-Jewish neighbors, Palestinian schools suffer underfunding and
%understaffing (as compared to Jewish schools); Palestinian
%children are denied the right to learn their history and
%literature; Israelis who struggle for equal rights and for the end
%of racial discrimination, suffer continuous harassment by the
%authorities.
1. There are some kibbutzim with Arab/Non-Jewish members.
It is up to the members of the kibbutz. There is no
legislation against it, nor against a purely non-Jewish
collective.
2. Funds are the result of political lobbying. Bearing in mind
that non_Jews compose ~20% of the voting population, it has
never failed to amaze me that they fail to form one large
bloc, and increase their power. The recent elections are a case
in point.
3. Please provide factual evidence supporting your allegation
with regard to educational material. You have obviously
never seen the curriculum of a school in the West Bank.
It is based upon Jordan's school system.
4. With regard to your last statement, it is simply another
gross generalization.
%The State of Israel refuses to acknowledge itself as the State of
%all its inhabitants. Although the Israeli Cabinet has never
%openly endorsed the 'transfer' idea (the forced removal from the
%country of its native Palestinian population, that is, its
%ultimate Judaization), Israeli government policies towards
%non-Jews bear the mark of this 'Final Solution'. No attempt is
%made by the Zionist authorities to integrate Palestinian Arabs
%into Israeli public life. Thus, although comprising approximately
%17% of the population of Israeli citizens, no Palestinian citizen
%of Israel has ever served as Cabinet member, as director of
%ministry or of a national institution, as judge of the Supreme
%Court, as ambassador of Israel, or in any leading position in
%Israeli economic or financial life. Even the director of the
%Ministry for Arab Affairs - yes, such a thing exists! - is a Jew.
Another generalization, but lets not stop here.
The transfer idea was espoused by one party in the last gov't,
Moledet. It was intended to be a solution to the problem in the
territories, not the country itself. With regard to other items,
I recall at least one Arab ambassador, and the rest was covered
previously.
%Although sexual
%relations between and cohabitation of Jews and non-Jews are legal,
%they are considered by Israeli/Zionist society somewhat a betrayal
%of the Jewish and Zionist ethics. The Israeli educational system
%nurtures this attitude in a systematic way.
When was the last time you were in Israel? That is simply not true,
nor has it been for quite some time. The question of religious
intervention is best answered by the proportional representation and
the lack of any Arab party bloc to counter the orthodox one.
%Zionism rejects the idea of a modern secular state, based on
%equality of all citizens. This is one main reason why Israel has
%not produced any written Constitution.
Simply incorrect.
The answer is political. Once again, your failure to understand the
dynamics and movements inside Israeli gov't, relegates your
contentions to the sidelines.
%Zionism predicates a state
%where Jews have privileged rights. Thus, according to Israeli law,
%a Jew born in London, who has never visited Israel, does not speak
%Hebrew and professes atheism, is granted automatic Israeli
%citizenship, while native Palestinian inhabitants who happen to be
%Christian or Muslim, are treated almost as aliens. Racial
%discrimination, as defined in international law, is thus not only
%reflected in Israeli laws and policies, but is grounded in the
%very nature of Israel as a Jewish state.
But the discrimination is not based upon race.
Oops, sorry, nasty habit I have of countering malicious false truths.
%Any proposal for Israeli-Arab and Israeli-Palestinian peace that
%does not address the issue of racial discrimination by Israel -
%that is the Zionist nature of the State of Israel - is thus doomed
%to fail.
Real world intrusion - any proposal that does is doomed to fail.
Of course, I wouldn't expect you to understand, wrapped up as
you are in your VIEW of things. Let's not let anything penetrate
shall we!?! I may be a bit too sarcastic but there is a limit to the
amount of patience I have for rubbish at 02:00.
| 5 |
6,778 |
The obsession with discussions of past (or present) events seems to be
largely centered on trying to "prove" that "they" are worse than "us".
As we see over and over, that leads nowhere except to make ourselves
feel superior. It's as if we've become addicted to periodic injections
of "self-affirmation" that draw their power from denigration of the
"other" and romanticization of ourselves. The hope is that we will begin
sometime to apply these discussions in some way towards consideration of
how to defuse the situation, advancement of negotiations and the search
for common ground between the parties involved.
Of course, for this to happen we can't believe that the best path to
*making ourselves feel better* is at the expense of others. As long as
those valuing the coming together of "opposing" parties do not pursue
their vision with the same passion as do those polarization specialists,
we will stay stuck in the circus of one-upsmanship we now have. We're
getting precisely what we are willing to work for. | 5 |
3,662 | or so days.
incident
You seem to make two points. No one ultimately oversees the federal agencies
you mention, and since Koresh "apparently" has a different view point from your
Baptist upbringing, then he is not worthy of protection from religious
persecution. As to being the Messiah, is not Christ within us all?
Must be comforting to belong to a government approved religion.
Baptists are a cult, two, BTW, under most of the definitions in the dictionary
of "cult".
Jim
--
jmd@handheld.com | 5 |
4,307 |
Once again, Koresh closed the door on an agent with a search warrant,
and the door was then perforated by a rain of bullets from the
inside.
They shot first.
| 5 |
6,467 |
I *cannot* *believe* I am posting in this thread, but what
the hell, he asked for it.
I had sort of the same reaction myself when I was first realizing
I was bi. "So what, >90% of everyone else is straight, I'd never
end up with a guy anyway." As several people on soc.bi pointed
out to me, this is true only if you find partners (for relationships
or just for sex) in primarily straight circles. Nowadays with gay
culture quite visible in major cities and such, you can easily
find yourself in an overwhelmingly queer social circle if you so
choose. (About half my friends are bi, and that's just from
hanging out in the science fiction club and going to UCBU once a
week, it's not as if I have to go out of my way and hang out in
bars or something.)
So the available pool for dates can be the same size. Unless of
course you're trying to date a random sample of the US population.
As for promiscuity, I've traded email with Clayton on the topic,
and he still doesn't seem to want to admit that yes, gay males
are sometimes forced to resort to anonymous sex because they're
closeted and can't afford to be seen in a permanent relationship.
Or that part of the promiscuity is because of the messed-up gender
roles in our society, and when males are dating males and they've
*all* been trained to be the aggressor in sex, there's going to
be more sex. Or that what's "dysfunctional", what's "screwed up"
is societal attitudes, not gay sexuality, and that's what
encourages deviant behavior in gay males.
(also note that just because someone's had 200 sex partners
doesn't mean they're promiscuous. yes, it sounds ridiculous,
but it's quite possible for someone to go through a heavily
closeted phase in which they have lots of anonymous sex with
strangers, and then come out, start forming real relationships,
and be monogamous or nearly so...)
| 5 |
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