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Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
such that AIs can travel the way they are traveling in our labs today,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:15:21.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
which is by radio from sender to receiver.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:15:27.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
And let's call the current age of the universe one eon, one eon.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:15:31.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
Now it will take just a few eons from now and the entire visible universe
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Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
is going to be full of that stuff.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:15:43.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
And let's look ahead to a time when the universe is going to be 1000 times older than it is now.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:15:47.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
They will look back and they will say, look, almost immediately after the Big Bang,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:15:53.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
only a few eons later, the entire universe started to become intelligent.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:15:57.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
Now to your question, how do we see whether anything like that has already happened
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:16:03.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
or is already in a more advanced stage in some other part of the universe, of the visible universe?
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Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
We are trying to look out there and nothing like that has happened so far or is that true?
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Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
Do you think we would recognize it?
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Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
How do we know it's not among us?
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Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
How do we know planets aren't in themselves intelligent beings?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:16:26.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
How do we know ants seen as a collective are not much greater intelligence than our own?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:16:31.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
These kinds of ideas.
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Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
When I was a boy, I was thinking about these things
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Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
and I thought, maybe it has already happened.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:16:45.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
Because back then I knew, I learned from popular physics books,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:16:48.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
that the large scale structure of the universe is not homogeneous.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:16:53.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
You have these clusters of galaxies and then in between there are these huge empty spaces.
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Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
And I thought, maybe they aren't really empty.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:17:08.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
It's just that in the middle of that, some AI civilization already has expanded
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Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
and then has covered a bubble of a billion light years diameter
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Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
and is using all the energy of all the stars within that bubble for its own unfathomable purposes.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:17:22.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
And so it already has happened and we just fail to interpret the signs.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:17:29.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
And then I learned that gravity by itself explains the large scale structure of the universe
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:17:35.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
and that this is not a convincing explanation.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:17:43.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
And then I thought, maybe it's the dark matter.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:17:46.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
Because as far as we know today, 80% of the measurable matter is invisible.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:17:51.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
And we know that because otherwise our galaxy or other galaxies would fall apart.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:18:01.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
They are rotating too quickly.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:18:06.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
And then the idea was, maybe all of these AI civilizations that are already out there,
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Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
they are just invisible because they are really efficient in using the energies of their own local systems
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:18:17.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
and that's why they appear dark to us.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:18:26.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
But this is also not a convincing explanation because then the question becomes,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:18:29.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
why are there still any visible stars left in our own galaxy, which also must have a lot of dark matter?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:18:34.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
So that is also not a convincing thing.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:18:44.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
And today, I like to think it's quite plausible that maybe we are the first,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:18:46.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
at least in our local light cone within the few hundreds of millions of light years that we can reliably observe.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:18:54.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
Is that exciting to you that we might be the first?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:19:09.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
And it would make us much more important because if we mess it up through a nuclear war,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:19:12.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
then maybe this will have an effect on the development of the entire universe.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:19:20.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
So let's not mess it up.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:19:31.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
Let's not mess it up.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:19:32.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
Jürgen, thank you so much for talking today. I really appreciate it.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:19:34.040
Juergen Schmidhuber: Godel Machines, Meta-Learning, and LSTMs | Lex Fridman Podcast #11
It's my pleasure.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0011-large.html#01:19:37.040
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
The following is a conversation with Thomas Sanholm.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:00.000
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
He's a professor at CMU and co creator of Labratus,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:03.440
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
which is the first AI system to beat top human players
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:06.880
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
in the game of Heads Up No Limit Texas Holdem.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:09.880
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
He has published over 450 papers
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:13.000
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
on game theory and machine learning,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:15.600
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
including a best paper in 2017 at NIPS,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:17.320
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
now renamed to Newrips,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:21.120
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
which is where I caught up with him for this conversation.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:23.560
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
His research and companies have had wide reaching impact
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:27.040
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
in the real world,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:30.680
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
especially because he and his group
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:32.160
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
not only propose new ideas,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:34.400
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
but also build systems to prove that these ideas work
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:36.640
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
in the real world.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:40.440
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
This conversation is part of the MIT course
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:42.120
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
on artificial general intelligence
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:44.640
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
and the artificial intelligence podcast.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:46.440
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube, iTunes,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:49.040
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
or simply connect with me on Twitter
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:52.400
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
at Lex Friedman, spelled F R I D.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:54.320
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
And now here's my conversation with Thomas Sanholm.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:00:58.080
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Can you describe at the high level
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:03.080
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
the game of poker, Texas Holdem, Heads Up Texas Holdem
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:06.120
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
for people who might not be familiar with this card game?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:09.320
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Yeah, happy to.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:13.280
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So Heads Up No Limit Texas Holdem
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:14.440
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
has really emerged in the AI community
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:16.520
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
as a main benchmark for testing these
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:18.840
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
application independent algorithms
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:21.360
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
for imperfect information game solving.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:23.560
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
And this is a game that's actually played by humans.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:26.440
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
You don't see that much on TV or casinos
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:30.960
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
because well, for various reasons,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:33.960
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
but you do see it in some expert level casinos
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:36.160
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
and you see it in the best poker movies of all time.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:40.240
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
It's actually an event in the World Series of Poker,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:43.080
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
but mostly it's played online
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:45.720
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
and typically for pretty big sums of money.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:48.200
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
And this is a game that usually only experts play.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:50.880
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So if you go to your home game on a Friday night,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:54.560
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
it probably is not gonna be Heads Up No Limit Texas Holdem.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:01:58.720
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
It might be No Limit Texas Holdem in some cases,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:02:01.280
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
but typically for a big group and it's not as competitive.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:02:04.640
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
While Heads Up means it's two players.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:02:08.720
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So it's really like me against you.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:02:10.520
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Am I better or are you better?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:02:13.360
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Much like chess or go in that sense,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:02:14.680
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
but an imperfect information game,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:02:17.520
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
which makes it much harder because I have to deal
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:02:19.520
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
with issues of you knowing things that I don't know
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
and I know things that you don't know
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:02:25.560
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
instead of pieces being nicely laid on the board
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:02:27.200