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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
for both of us to see.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:02:29.720
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So in Texas Holdem, there's two cards
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
that you only see that belong to you.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Yeah. And there is,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
they gradually lay out some cards
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
that add up overall to five cards that everybody can see.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:02:40.400
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Yeah. So the imperfect nature
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
of the information is the two cards
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
that you're holding in your hand.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Up front, yeah.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So as you said, you first get two cards
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
in private each and then there's a betting round.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Then you get three cards in public on the table.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Then there's a betting round.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Then you get the fourth card in public on the table.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0012-large.html#00:02:59.240
Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
There's a betting round.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Then you get the 5th card on the table.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
There's a betting round.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So there's a total of four betting rounds
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
and four tranches of information revelation if you will.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
The only the first tranche is private
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
and then it's public from there.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
And this is probably by far the most popular game in AI
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
and just the general public
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
in terms of imperfect information.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So that's probably the most popular spectator game
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
to watch, right?
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So, which is why it's a super exciting game to tackle.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So it's on the order of chess, I would say,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
in terms of popularity, in terms of AI setting it
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
as the bar of what is intelligence.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So in 2017, Labratus, how do you pronounce it?
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Labratus.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Labratus.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Labratus beats.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
A little Latin there.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
A little bit of Latin.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Labratus beats a few, four expert human players.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Can you describe that event?
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
What you learned from it?
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
What was it like?
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
What was the process in general
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
for people who have not read the papers and the study?
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Yeah, so the event was that we invited
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
four of the top 10 players,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
with these specialist players in Heads Up No Limit,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Texas Holden, which is very important
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
because this game is actually quite different
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
than the multiplayer version.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
We brought them in to Pittsburgh
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
to play at the Reverse Casino for 20 days.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
We wanted to get 120,000 hands in
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
because we wanted to get statistical significance.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So it's a lot of hands for humans to play,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
even for these top pros who play fairly quickly normally.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So we couldn't just have one of them play so many hands.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
20 days, they were playing basically morning to evening.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
And I raised 200,000 as a little incentive for them to play.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
And the setting was so that they didn't all get 50,000.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
We actually paid them out
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
based on how they did against the AI each.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So they had an incentive to play as hard as they could,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
whether they're way ahead or way behind
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
or right at the mark of beating the AI.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
And you don't make any money, unfortunately.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Right, no, we can't make any money.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So originally, a couple of years earlier,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
I actually explored whether we could actually play for money
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
because that would be, of course, interesting as well,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
to play against the top people for money.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
But the Pennsylvania Gaming Board said no, so we couldn't.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So this is much like an exhibit,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
like for a musician or a boxer or something like that.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Nevertheless, they were keeping track of the money
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
and brought us close to $2 million, I think.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So if it was for real money, if you were able to earn money,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
that was a quite impressive and inspiring achievement.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Just a few details, what were the players looking at?
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Were they behind a computer?
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
What was the interface like?
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Yes, they were playing much like they normally do.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
These top players, when they play this game,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
they play mostly online.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So they're used to playing through a UI.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
And they did the same thing here.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So there was this layout.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
You could imagine there's a table on a screen.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
There's the human sitting there,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
and then there's the AI sitting there.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
And the screen shows everything that's happening.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
The cards coming out and shows the bets being made.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
And we also had the betting history for the human.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So if the human forgot what had happened in the hand so far,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
they could actually reference back and so forth.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Is there a reason they were given access
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
to the betting history for?
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Well, we just, it didn't really matter.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
They wouldn't have forgotten anyway.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
These are top quality people.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
But we just wanted to put out there
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