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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Yeah.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
I don't think whether there are certain problems that probably
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
cannot be solved, depending what you believe
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
about the physical reality, like maybe totally impossible
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
to create energy from nothing or to travel back in time,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
but about making machines that can think as well as we do
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
or better, or more likely, especially
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
in the short and midterm, help us think better,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
which is, in a sense, is happening already
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
with the computers we have.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And it will happen more and more.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But that I certainly believe.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And I don't see, in principle, why computers at some point
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
could not become more intelligent than we are,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
although the word intelligence is a tricky one
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and one we should discuss.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
What I mean with that.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Intelligence, consciousness, words like love,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
all these need to be disentangled.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So you've mentioned also that you believe
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
the problem of intelligence is the greatest problem
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
in science, greater than the origin of life
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and the origin of the universe.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
You've also, in the talk I've listened to,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
said that you're open to arguments against you.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So what do you think is the most captivating aspect
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
of this problem of understanding the nature of intelligence?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Why does it captivate you as it does?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Well, originally, I think one of the motivation
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
that I had as, I guess, a teenager when I was infatuated
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
with theory of relativity was really
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
that I found that there was the problem of time and space
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and general relativity.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But there were so many other problems
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
of the same level of difficulty and importance
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
that I could, even if I were Einstein,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
it was difficult to hope to solve all of them.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So what about solving a problem whose solution allowed
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
me to solve all the problems?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And this was, what if we could find the key to an intelligence
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
10 times better or faster than Einstein?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So that's sort of seeing artificial intelligence
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
as a tool to expand our capabilities.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But is there just an inherent curiosity in you
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
in just understanding what it is in here
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
that makes it all work?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Yes, absolutely, you're right.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So I started saying this was the motivation when
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
I was a teenager.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But soon after, I think the problem of human intelligence
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
became a real focus of my science and my research
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
because I think for me, the most interesting problem
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
is really asking who we are.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
It's asking not only a question about science,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
but even about the very tool we are using to do science, which
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
is our brain.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
How does our brain work?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
From where does it come from?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
What are its limitations?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Can we make it better?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And that, in many ways, is the ultimate question
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
that underlies this whole effort of science.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So you've made significant contributions
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
in both the science of intelligence
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and the engineering of intelligence.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
In a hypothetical way, let me ask,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
how far do you think we can get in creating intelligence
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
systems without understanding the biological,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
the understanding how the human brain creates intelligence?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Put another way, do you think we can
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
build a strong AI system without really getting at the core
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
understanding the functional nature of the brain?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Well, this is a real difficult question.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
We did solve problems like flying
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
without really using too much our knowledge
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
about how birds fly.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
It was important, I guess, to know that you could have
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
things heavier than air being able to fly, like birds.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But beyond that, probably we did not learn very much, some.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
The Brothers Wright did learn a lot of observation
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
about birds and designing their aircraft.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But you can argue we did not use much of biology
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
in that particular case.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Now, in the case of intelligence,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
I think that it's a bit of a bet right now.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
If you ask, OK, we all agree we'll get at some point,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
maybe soon, maybe later, to a machine that
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
is indistinguishable from my secretary,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
say, in terms of what I can ask the machine to do.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
I think we'll get there.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And now the question is, you can ask people,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
do you think we'll get there without any knowledge
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
about the human brain?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Or that the best way to get there
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
is to understand better the human brain?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
OK, this is, I think, an educated bet
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
that different people with different backgrounds
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
will decide in different ways.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
The recent history of the progress
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
in AI in the last, I would say, five years or 10 years
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