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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and how much of it is software?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0013-large.html#00:17:24.680
Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Yeah, that's a good, deep question.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
In a sense, it's the old question of nurture and nature,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
how much is in the gene, and how much
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
is in the experience of an individual.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Obviously, it's both that play a role.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And I believe that the way evolution gives,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
puts prior information, so to speak, hardwired,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
is not really hardwired.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But that's essentially an hypothesis.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
I think what's going on is that evolution has almost
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
necessarily, if you believe in Darwin, is very opportunistic.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And think about our DNA and the DNA of Drosophila.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Our DNA does not have many more genes than Drosophila.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
The fly.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
The fly, the fruit fly.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Now, we know that the fruit fly does not
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
learn very much during its individual existence.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
It looks like one of these machinery
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
that it's really mostly, not 100%, but 95%,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
hardcoded by the genes.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But since we don't have many more genes than Drosophila,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
evolution could encode in as a general learning machinery,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and then had to give very weak priors.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Like, for instance, let me give a specific example,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
which is recent work by a member of our Center for Brains,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Minds, and Machines.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
We know because of work of other people in our group
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and other groups, that there are cells
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
in a part of our brain, neurons, that are tuned to faces.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
They seem to be involved in face recognition.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Now, this face area seems to be present in young children
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and adults.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And one question is, is there from the beginning?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Is hardwired by evolution?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Or somehow it's learned very quickly.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So what's your, by the way, a lot of the questions I'm asking,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
the answer is we don't really know.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But as a person who has contributed
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
some profound ideas in these fields,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
you're a good person to guess at some of these.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So of course, there's a caveat before a lot of the stuff
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
we talk about.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But what is your hunch?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Is the face, the part of the brain
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
that seems to be concentrated on face recognition,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
are you born with that?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Or you just is designed to learn that quickly,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
like the face of the mother and so on?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
My hunch, my bias was the second one, learned very quickly.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And it turns out that Marge Livingstone at Harvard
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
has done some amazing experiments in which she raised
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
baby monkeys, depriving them of faces
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
during the first weeks of life.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So they see technicians, but the technician have a mask.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Yes.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And so when they looked at the area
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
in the brain of these monkeys that were usually
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
defined faces, they found no face preference.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So my guess is that what evolution does in this case
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
is there is a plastic area, which
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
is plastic, which is kind of predetermined
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
to be imprinted very easily.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But the command from the gene is not a detailed circuitry
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
for a face template.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Could be, but this will require probably a lot of bits.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
You had to specify a lot of connection of a lot of neurons.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Instead, the command from the gene
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
is something like imprint, memorize what you see most
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
often in the first two weeks of life,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
especially in connection with food and maybe nipples.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
I don't know.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Well, source of food.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And so that area is very plastic at first and then solidifies.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
It'd be interesting if a variant of that experiment
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
would show a different kind of pattern associated
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
with food than a face pattern, whether that could stick.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
There are indications that during that experiment,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
what the monkeys saw quite often were
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
the blue gloves of the technicians that were giving
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
to the baby monkeys the milk.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And some of the cells, instead of being face sensitive
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
in that area, are hand sensitive.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
That's fascinating.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Can you talk about what are the different parts of the brain
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and, in your view, sort of loosely,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and how do they contribute to intelligence?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Do you see the brain as a bunch of different modules,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and they together come in the human brain
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
to create intelligence?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Or is it all one mush of the same kind
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
of fundamental architecture?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Yeah, that's an important question.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And there was a phase in neuroscience back in the 1950
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
or so in which it was believed for a while
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
that the brain was equipotential.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
This was the term.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
You could cut out a piece, and nothing special
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
happened apart a little bit less performance.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
There was a surgeon, Lashley, who
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