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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
increase safety risk. I think that's just not
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
something we'd be willing to do. But I think driving style or like, you
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
know, are you going to relax the comfort constraints slightly or things like that,
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
all of those things make sense and are plausible. I see all those as, you know,
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
nice optimizations. Once again, we get the core problem solved in these fleets
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
out there. But the other thing we've sort of
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
observed is that you have this intuition that if you
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
sort of slam your foot on the gas right after the light turns green and
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
aggressively accelerate, you're going to get there faster. But the
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
actual impact of doing that is pretty small.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
You feel like you're getting there faster, but so the same would be
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
true for AVs. Even if they don't slam their, you know, the pedal to the floor
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
when the light turns green, they're going to get you there within, you
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
know, if it's a 15 minute trip, within 30 seconds of what you would have done
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
otherwise if you were going really aggressively.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
So I think there's this sort of self deception that my aggressive
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
driving style is getting me there faster.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
Well, so that's, you know, some of the things I've studied, some of the things
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
I'm fascinated by the psychology of that. I don't think it matters
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
that it doesn't get you there faster. It's the emotional release.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
Driving is a place, being inside of a car,
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
somebody said it's like the real world version of being a troll.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
So you have this protection, this mental protection, you're able to sort of yell
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
at the world, like release your anger, whatever.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
So there's an element of that that I think autonomous vehicles would also
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
have to, you know, giving an outlet to people, but it doesn't have to be
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
through, through, through driving or honking or so on.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
There might be other outlets, but I think to just sort of even just put that aside,
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
the baseline is really, you know, that's the focus.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
That's the thing you need to solve.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
And then the fun human things can be solved after.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
But so from the baseline of just solving autonomous driving, you're working in
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
San Francisco, one of the more difficult cities to operate in.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
What is, what is the, in your view, currently the hardest
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
aspect of autonomous driving?
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
Is it negotiating with pedestrians?
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
Is it edge cases of perception?
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
Is it planning?
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
Is there a mechanical engineering?
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
Is it data, fleet stuff?
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
What are your thoughts on the challenge, the more challenging aspects there?
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
That's a, that's a good question.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
I think before, before we go to that, though, I just want to, I like what you
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
said about the psychology aspect of this,
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
because I think one observation I've made is I think I read somewhere that I
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
think it's maybe Americans on average spend, you know, over an hour a day on
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
social media, like staring at Facebook.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
And so that's just, you know, 60 minutes of your life, you're not getting back.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
It's probably not super productive.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
And so that's 3,600 seconds, right?
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
And that's, that's time, you know, it's a lot of time you're giving up.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
And if you compare that to people being on the road, if another vehicle, whether
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
it's a human driver or autonomous vehicle, delays them by even three
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
seconds, they're laying in on the horn, you know, even though that's, that's, you
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
know, one, one thousandth of the time they waste looking at Facebook every day.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
So there's, there's definitely some.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
You know, psychology aspects of this, I think that are pretty interesting road
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
rage in general.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
And then the question of course is if everyone is in self driving cars,
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
do they even notice these three second delays anymore?
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
Cause they're doing other things or reading or working or just talking to
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
each other.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
So it'll be interesting to see where that goes.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
In a certain aspect, people, people need to be distracted by something
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
entertaining, something useful inside the car.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
So they don't pay attention to the external world.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
And then, and then they can take whatever psychology and bring it back to
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
Twitter and then focus on that as opposed to sort of interacting, sort of putting
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
the emotion out there into the world.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
So it's a, it's an interesting problem, but baseline autonomy.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
I guess you could say self driving cars, you know, at scale will lower the
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
collective blood pressure of society probably by a couple of points without
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
all that road rage and stress.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
So that's a good, good external.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
So back to your question about the technology and the, I guess the biggest
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
problems.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
And I have a hard time answering that question because, you know, we've been
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
at this like specifically focusing on driverless cars and all the technology
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
needed to enable that for a little over four and a half years now.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
And even a year or two in, I felt like we had completed the functionality needed
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
to get someone from point A to point B.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
As in, if we need to do a left turn maneuver, or if we need to drive around
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
at, you know, a double parked vehicle into oncoming traffic or navigate
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
through construction zones, the scaffolding and the building blocks was
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
there pretty early on.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
And so the challenge is not any one scenario or situation for which, you
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
know, we fail at 100% of those.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
It's more, you know, we're benchmarking against a pretty good or pretty high
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
standard, which is human driving.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
All things considered, humans are excellent at handling edge cases and
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
unexpected scenarios where computers are the opposite.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
And so beating that baseline set by humans is the challenge.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
And so what we've been doing for quite some time now is basically, it's this
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
continuous improvement process where we find sort of the most, you know,
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
uncomfortable or the things that could lead to a safety issue or other
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
things, all these events.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
And then we sort of categorize them and rework parts of our system to make
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
incremental improvements and do that over and over and over again.
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
And we just see sort of the overall performance of the system, you know,
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Kyle Vogt: Cruise Automation | Lex Fridman Podcast #14
actually increasing in a pretty steady clip.
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