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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
it.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:01:29.600
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Given a universe where we have 10 to the 11 galaxies and each galaxy has between 10 to
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:01:30.600
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
the 11, 10 to the 12 stars and we know most stars have one or more planets.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:01:35.200
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So how does that make you feel?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:01:41.520
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It still makes me feel special because I have experiences.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:01:43.480
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I feel the world, I experience the world and independent of whether there are other creatures
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:01:49.020
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
out there, I still feel the world and I have access to this world in this very strange
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
compelling way and that's the core of human existence.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:02:00.520
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Now, you said human, do you think if those intelligent creatures are out there, do you
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:02:04.760
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
think they experience their world?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:02:10.480
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Yes, if they are evolved, if they are a product of natural evolution as they would have to
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:02:13.680
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
be, they will also experience their own world.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:02:18.120
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
The consciousness isn't just human, you're right, it's much wider.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:02:20.200
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It may be spread across all of biology.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:02:24.640
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
The only thing that we have special is we can talk about it.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:02:27.920
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Of course, not all people can talk about it.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:02:30.880
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Babies and little children can talk about it.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:02:33.360
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Patients who have a stroke in the left inferior frontal gyrus can talk about it, but most
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:02:35.600
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
normal adult people can talk about it and so we think that makes us special compared
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:02:41.200
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
to let's say monkeys or dogs or cats or mice or all the other creatures that we share the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:02:45.760
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
planet with, but all the evidence seems to suggest that they too experience the world
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:02:49.480
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
and so it's overwhelmingly likely that aliens would also experience their world.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:02:54.240
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Of course, differently because they have a different sensorium, they have different sensors,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:02:59.520
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
they have a very different environment, but the fact that I would strongly suppose that
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:03:02.520
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
they also have experiences.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:03:08.280
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
They feel pain and pleasure and see in some sort of spectrum and hear and have all the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:03:09.760
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
other senses.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:03:16.400
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Of course, their language, if they have one, would be different so we might not be able
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:03:17.760
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
to understand their poetry about the experiences that they have.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:03:21.080
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
That's correct.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:03:24.600
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So in a talk, in a video, I've heard you mention Siputzo, a dachshund that you came up with,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:03:26.240
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
that you grew up with, it was part of your family when you were young.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:03:33.200
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
First of all, you're technically a Midwestern boy.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:03:37.160
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You just –
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:03:40.840
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Technically.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Yes.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
But after that, you traveled around a bit, hence a little bit of the accent.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You talked about Siputzo, the dachshund, having these elements of humanness, of consciousness
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:03:48.480
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
that you discovered.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:03:55.920
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So I just wanted to ask, can you look back in your childhood and remember when was the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:03:56.920
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
first time you realized you yourself, sort of from a third person perspective, are a
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:04:01.440
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
conscious being?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
This idea of stepping outside yourself and seeing there's something special going on
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
here in my brain.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I can't really actually – it's a good question.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I'm not sure I recall a discrete moment.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:04:19.640
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I mean, you take it for granted because that's the only world you know.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:04:21.960
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
The only world I know and you know is the world of seeing and hearing voices and touching
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:04:25.880
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
and all the other things.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So it's only much later at early – in my underguided days when I enrolled in physics
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
and in philosophy that I really thought about it and thought, well, this is really fundamentally
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:04:40.040
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
very, very mysterious and there's nothing really in physics right now that explains
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:04:43.480
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
this transition from the physics of the brain to feelings.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:04:48.040
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Where do the feelings come in?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:04:52.000
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So you can look at the foundational equation of quantum mechanics, general relativity.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:04:53.480
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You can look at the periodic table of the elements.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:04:57.560
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You can look at the endless ATGC chat in our genes and nowhere is consciousness.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:04:59.960
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Yet I wake up every morning to a world where I have experiences.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:05:05.680
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And so that's the heart of the ancient mind body problem.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:05:09.600
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
How do experiences get into the world?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:05:12.680
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So what is consciousness?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:05:16.760
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Experience.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:05:19.720
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
This is any experience.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:05:20.800
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Some people call it subjective feeling.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:05:24.560
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Some people call it phenomenology.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:05:26.500
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Some people call it qualia of the philosopher.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:05:29.520
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
But they all denote the same thing.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:05:31.500
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It feels like something in the famous word of the philosopher Thomas Nagel.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:05:32.840
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It feels like something to be a bat or to be an American or to be angry or to be sad
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:05:37.200
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
or to be in love or to have pain.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And that is what experience is, any possible experience.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Could be as mundane as just sitting in a chair.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Could be as exalted as having a mystical moment in deep meditation.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:05:55.320
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Those are just different forms of experiences.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:06:01.240
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Experience.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:06:03.520
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So if you were to sit down with maybe the next, skip a couple generations, of IBM Watson,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:06:04.520
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
something that won Jeopardy, what is the gap, I guess the question is, between Watson, that
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:06:11.920
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
might be much smarter than you, than us, than any human alive, but may not have experience,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:06:18.320
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
what is the gap?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:06:26.280
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Well, so that's a big, big question.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:06:27.280
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
That's occupied people for the last, certainly last 50 years since we, you know, since the
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
advent, the birth of computers.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
That's a question Alan Turing tried to answer.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And of course he did it in this indirect way by proposing a test, an operational test.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:06:40.920
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
But that's not really, that's, you know, he tried to get at what does it mean for a person
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
to think, and then he had this test, right?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:06:50.400
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You lock them away, and then you have a communication with them, and then you try to guess after
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
a while whether that is a person or whether it's a computer system.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:06:57.200
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
There's no question that now or very soon, you know, Alexa or Siri or, you know, Google
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:07:00.720
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
now will pass this test, right?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:07:05.400
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And you can game it, but you know, ultimately, certainly in your generation, there will be
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:07:07.640
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
machines that will speak with complete poise that will remember everything you ever said.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:07:12.440
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
They'll remember every email you ever had, like Samantha, remember in the movie Her?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:07:16.680
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Yeah.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:07:21.320
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
There's no question it's going to happen.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:07:22.320
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
But of course, the key question is, does it feel like anything to be Samantha in the movie
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:07:24.360
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Her?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Or does it feel like anything to be Watson?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:07:29.280
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And there one has to very, very strongly think there are two different concepts here that
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:07:32.200
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
we co mingle.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:07:38.200