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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You feel somewhat uncomfortable or you think, well, I'm going to get bored.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:13.560
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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And if you try to not to think actively, you become mindless.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:17.000
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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There you are, bodiless, timeless, you know, soundless, sightless, mindless, but you're
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:20.640
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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in a conscious experience.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:27.120
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You're not asleep.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:28.120
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Yeah.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:29.120
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You're not asleep.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:30.120
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You are a being of pure, you're a pure being.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:31.120
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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There isn't any function.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:33.640
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You aren't doing any computation.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:34.640
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You're not remembering.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:36.280
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You're not projecting.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:37.280
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You're not planning.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:38.280
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Yet you are fully conscious.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:39.280
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You're fully conscious.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:40.680
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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There's something going on there.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:41.960
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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It could be just a side effect.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:42.960
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So what is the...
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:44.320
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You mean epiphenomena.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:45.320
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So what's the select, meaning why, what is the function of you being able to lay in this
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:47.880
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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sensory free deprivation tank and still have a conscious experience?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:13:57.480
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Evolutionary?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:01.120
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Evolutionary.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:02.120
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Obviously we didn't evolve with flotation tanks in our environment.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:03.120
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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I mean, so biology is notoriously bad at asking why question, telenormical question.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:06.720
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Why do we have two eyes?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:11.520
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Why don't we have four eyes like some teachers or three eyes or something?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:12.520
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Well, no, there's probably, there is a function to that, but we're not very good at answering
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:15.520
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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those questions.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:20.440
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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We can speculate endlessly where biology is very, or science is very good about mechanistic
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:21.440
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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question.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:25.200
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Why is there a charge in the universe?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:26.200
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Right?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:27.200
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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We find a certain universe where there are positive and negative charges.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:28.200
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Why?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:30.200
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Why does quantum mechanics hold?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:31.200
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You know, why doesn't some other theory hold?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:33.040
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Quantum mechanics holding our universe is very unclear why.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:36.040
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So telenormical question, why questions are difficult to answer.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:38.600
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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There's some relationship between complexity, brain processing power and consciousness.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:42.120
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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But however, in these cases, in these three examples I gave, one is an everyday experience
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:49.000
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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at night.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:53.800
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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The other one is trauma.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:54.800
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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And third one is in principle, you can, everybody can have these sort of mystical experiences.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:14:55.800
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You have a dissociation of function from, of intelligence from consciousness.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:15:00.520
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You caught me asking a why question.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:15:09.440
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Let me ask a question that's not a why question.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:15:12.260
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You're giving a talk later today on the Turing test for intelligence and consciousness, drawing
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:15:15.180
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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lines between the two.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:15:19.440
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So is there a scientific way to say there's consciousness present in this entity or not?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:15:21.320
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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And to anticipate your answer, cause you, you will also, there's a neurobiological answer.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:15:28.320
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So we can test the human brain, but if you take a machine brain that you don't know tests
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:15:34.220
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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for yet, how would you even begin to approach a test if there's consciousness present in
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:15:38.640
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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this thing?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:15:45.440
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Okay.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:15:46.440
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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That's a really good question.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:15:47.440
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So let me take it in two steps.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:15:48.440
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So as you point out for, for, for, for humans, let's just stick with humans.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:15:49.440
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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There's now a test called the Zap and Zip is a procedure where you ping the brain using
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:15:54.280
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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transcranial magnetic stimulation.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:15:58.680
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You look at the electrical reverberations essentially using EG, and then you can measure
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:00.960
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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the complexity of this brain response.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:06.000
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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And you can do this in awake people, in asleep, normal people, you can do it in awake people
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:07.880
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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and then anesthetize them.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:12.360
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You can do it in patients.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:13.740
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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And it, it, it has a hundred percent accuracy that in all those cases, when you're clear,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:15.640
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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the patient or the person is either conscious or unconscious, the complexity is either high
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:20.400
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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or low.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:23.920
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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And then you can adopt these techniques to similar creatures like monkeys and dogs and,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:24.960
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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and, and mice that have very similar brains.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:28.640
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Now of course you, you point out that may not help you because we don't have a cortex,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:32.080
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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you know, and if I send a magnetic pulse into my iPhone or my computer, it's probably going
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:36.320
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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to break something.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:40.120
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So we don't have that.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:41.520
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So what we need ultimately, we need a theory of consciousness.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:42.520
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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We can't just rely on our intuition.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:47.460
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Our intuition is, well, yeah, if somebody talks, they're conscious.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:49.400
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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However, then there are all these patients, children, babies don't talk, right?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:52.840
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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But we believe that, that the babies also have conscious experiences, right?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:16:56.760
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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And then there are all these patients I mentioned and they don't talk.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:01.400
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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When you dream, you can't talk because you're paralyzed.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:04.960
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So what we ultimately need, we can't just rely on our intuition.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:07.800
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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We need a theory of conscience that tells us what is it about a piece of matter?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:11.220
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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What is it about a piece of highly excitable matter like the brain or like a computer that
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:15.560
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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gives rise to conscious experience?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:19.720
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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We all believe, none of us believes anymore in the old story.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:21.840
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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It's a soul, right?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:24.400
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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That used to be the most common explanation that most people accept that instill a lot
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:25.680
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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of people today believe, well, there's, there's God endowed only us with a special thing
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:28.680
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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that animals don't have.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:34.040
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Rene Descartes famously said, a dog, if you hit it with your carriage may yell, may cry,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:35.440
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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but it doesn't have this special thing.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:39.900
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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It doesn't have the magic, the magic soul.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:41.840
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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It doesn't have res cogitans, the soul.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:45.120
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Now we believe that isn't the case anymore.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:46.680
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So what is the difference between brains and, and these guys, silicon?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:48.920
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
And in particular, once their behavior matches.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:55.680
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
So if you have Siri or Alexa in 20 years from now that she can talk just as good as any
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:17:58.200
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
possible human, what grounds do you have to say she's not conscious in particular, if
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:18:03.220
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
she says it's of course she will, well, of course I'm conscious.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:18:07.680
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