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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You ask her how are you doing?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:18:11.520
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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And she'll say, well, you know, they, they'll generate some way to, of course she'll behave
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:18:12.600
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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like a, like a person.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:18:17.840
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Now there's several differences.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:18:19.880
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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One is, so this relates to the problem, the very hard, why is consciousness a hard problem?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:18:21.640
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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It's because it's subjective, right?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:18:28.260
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Only I have it, for only I know I have direct experience of my own consciousness.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:18:30.760
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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I don't have experience in your consciousness.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:18:36.440
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Now I assume as a sort of a Bayesian person who believes in probability theory and all
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:18:38.780
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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of that, you know, I can do, I can do an abduction to the, to the best available facts.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:18:42.720
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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I deduce your brain is very similar to mine.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:18:46.960
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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If I put you in a scanner, your brain is roughly going to behave the same way as I do.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:18:48.920
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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If, if, if, you know, if I give you this muesli and ask you, how does it taste?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:18:53.160
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You tell me things that, you know, that, that I would also say more or less, right?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:18:56.480
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So I infer based on all of that, that you're conscious.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:19:00.520
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Now with theory, I can't do that.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:19:02.680
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So there I really need a theory that tells me what is it about, about any system, this
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:19:03.920
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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or this, that makes it conscious.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:19:09.280
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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We have such a theory.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:19:11.240
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Yes.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:19:12.240
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So the integrated information theory, but let me first, maybe as an introduction for
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:19:13.240
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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people who are not familiar, Descartes, can you, you talk a lot about pan, panpsychism.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:19:17.640
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Can you describe what, uh, physicalism versus dualism?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:19:24.280
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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This you, you mentioned the soul, what, what is the history of that idea?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:19:29.320
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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What is the idea of panpsychism or no, the debate really, uh, out of which panpsychism
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:19:33.520
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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can, um, emerge of, of, of, um, dualism versus, uh, physicalism or do you not see panpsychism
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:19:39.600
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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as fitting into that?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:19:48.480
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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No, you can argue there's some, okay, so let's step back.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:19:49.480
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So panpsychism is a very ancient belief that's been around, uh, I mean, Plato and Aristotle
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:19:52.640
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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talks about it, uh, modern philosophers talk about it.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:19:57.800
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Of course, in Buddhism, the idea is very prevalent that, I mean, there are different versions
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:20:01.560
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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of it.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:20:06.200
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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One version says everything is ensouled, everything, rocks and stones and dogs and people and forest
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:20:07.200
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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and iPhones, all of us all, right?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:20:12.400
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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All matter is ensouled.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:20:14.480
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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That's sort of one version.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:20:15.480
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Another version is that all biology, all creatures, small or large, from a single cell to a giant
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:20:17.240
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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sequoia tree feel like something.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:20:24.120
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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This one I think is somewhat more realistic.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:20:26.160
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Um, so the different versions, what do you mean by feel like something, have, have feelings,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:20:28.280
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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have some kind of, it feels like something, it may well be possible that it feels like
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:20:33.180
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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something to be a paramecium.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:20:37.000
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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I think it's pretty likely it feels like something to be a bee or a mouse or a dog.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:20:39.360
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Sure.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:20:45.080
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So, okay.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:20:46.080
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So, so that you can see that's also, so panpsychism is very broad and you can, so some people,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:20:47.080
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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for example, Bertrand Russell, tried to advocate this, this idea, it's called Rasselian Monism,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:20:53.200
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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that that panpsychism is really physics viewed from the inside.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:20:59.520
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So the idea is that physics is very good at describing relationship among objects like
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:04.400
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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charges or like gravity, right?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:09.920
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You know, describe the relationship between curvature and mass distribution, okay?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:12.920
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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That's the relationship among things.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:16.840
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Physics doesn't really describe the ultimate reality itself.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:18.480
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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It's just relationship among, you know, quarks or all these other stuff from like a third
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:21.000
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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person observer.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:25.720
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Yes.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:27.280
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
Yes.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:28.280
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
Yes.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:29.280
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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And consciousness is what physics feels from the inside.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:30.280
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So my conscious experience, it's the way the physics of my brain, particularly my cortex
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:31.880
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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feels from the inside.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:36.760
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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And so if you are paramecium, you got to remember, you say paramecium, well, that's a pretty
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:38.680
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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dumb creature.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:42.720
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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It is, but it has already a billion different molecules, probably, you know, 5,000 different
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:43.720
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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proteins assembled in a highly, highly complex system that no single person, no computer
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:49.960
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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system so far on this planet has ever managed to accurately simulate.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:54.880
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Its complexity vastly escapes us.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:21:59.280
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
Yes.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:01.040
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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And it may well be that that little thing feels like a tiny bit.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:02.040
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Now, it doesn't have a voice in the head like me.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:04.800
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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It doesn't have expectations.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:06.520
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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You know, it doesn't have all that complex things, but it may well feel like something.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:07.520
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
Yeah.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:12.520
|
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
So this is really interesting.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:13.520
|
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
Can we draw some lines and maybe try to understand the difference between life, intelligence
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:14.520
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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and consciousness?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:20.920
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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How do you see all of those?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:23.360
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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If you had to define what is a living thing, what is a conscious thing and what is an intelligent
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:25.480
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
thing?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:31.320
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Do those intermix for you or are they totally separate?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:32.320
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Okay.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:34.480
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So A, that's a question that we don't have a full answer to.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:35.480
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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A lot of the stuff we're talking about today is full of mysteries and fascinating ones,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:38.040
|
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
right?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:42.080
|
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
For example, you can go to Aristotle, who's probably the most important scientist and
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:43.080
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
philosopher who's ever lived in, certainly in Western culture.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:46.880
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
He had this idea, it's called hylomorphism.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:49.760
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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It's quite popular these days, that there are different forms of soul.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:51.760
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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The soul is really the form of something.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:55.160
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
He says, all biological creatures have a vegetative soul.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:22:57.400
|
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
That's life principle.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:23:00.760
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
Today, we think we understand something more than it is biochemistry and nonlinear thermodynamics.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:23:01.760
|
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
Then he said they have a sensitive soul.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:23:07.400
|
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
Only animals and humans have also a sensitive soul or a petitive soul.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:23:09.480
|
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
They can see, they can smell, and they have drives.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:23:15.080
|
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
They want to reproduce, they want to eat, et cetera.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:23:18.240
|
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
And then only humans have what he called a rational soul, okay?
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:23:21.080
|
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
And that idea then made it into Christendom and then the rational soul is the one that
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:23:26.080
|
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
lives forever.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:23:30.040
|
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
He was very unclear.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:23:31.040
|
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