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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You ask her how are you doing?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And she'll say, well, you know, they, they'll generate some way to, of course she'll behave
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
like a, like a person.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Now there's several differences.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
One is, so this relates to the problem, the very hard, why is consciousness a hard problem?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It's because it's subjective, right?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Only I have it, for only I know I have direct experience of my own consciousness.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I don't have experience in your consciousness.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Now I assume as a sort of a Bayesian person who believes in probability theory and all
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
of that, you know, I can do, I can do an abduction to the, to the best available facts.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I deduce your brain is very similar to mine.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
If I put you in a scanner, your brain is roughly going to behave the same way as I do.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
If, if, if, you know, if I give you this muesli and ask you, how does it taste?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You tell me things that, you know, that, that I would also say more or less, right?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So I infer based on all of that, that you're conscious.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Now with theory, I can't do that.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So there I really need a theory that tells me what is it about, about any system, this
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
or this, that makes it conscious.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
We have such a theory.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Yes.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So the integrated information theory, but let me first, maybe as an introduction for
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
people who are not familiar, Descartes, can you, you talk a lot about pan, panpsychism.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Can you describe what, uh, physicalism versus dualism?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
This you, you mentioned the soul, what, what is the history of that idea?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
What is the idea of panpsychism or no, the debate really, uh, out of which panpsychism
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
can, um, emerge of, of, of, um, dualism versus, uh, physicalism or do you not see panpsychism
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
as fitting into that?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
No, you can argue there's some, okay, so let's step back.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So panpsychism is a very ancient belief that's been around, uh, I mean, Plato and Aristotle
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
talks about it, uh, modern philosophers talk about it.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Of course, in Buddhism, the idea is very prevalent that, I mean, there are different versions
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
of it.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
One version says everything is ensouled, everything, rocks and stones and dogs and people and forest
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
and iPhones, all of us all, right?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
All matter is ensouled.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
That's sort of one version.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Another version is that all biology, all creatures, small or large, from a single cell to a giant
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
sequoia tree feel like something.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
This one I think is somewhat more realistic.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Um, so the different versions, what do you mean by feel like something, have, have feelings,
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
have some kind of, it feels like something, it may well be possible that it feels like
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
something to be a paramecium.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I think it's pretty likely it feels like something to be a bee or a mouse or a dog.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Sure.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So, okay.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So, so that you can see that's also, so panpsychism is very broad and you can, so some people,
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
for example, Bertrand Russell, tried to advocate this, this idea, it's called Rasselian Monism,
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
that that panpsychism is really physics viewed from the inside.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So the idea is that physics is very good at describing relationship among objects like
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
charges or like gravity, right?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You know, describe the relationship between curvature and mass distribution, okay?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
That's the relationship among things.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Physics doesn't really describe the ultimate reality itself.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It's just relationship among, you know, quarks or all these other stuff from like a third
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
person observer.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Yes.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Yes.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Yes.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And consciousness is what physics feels from the inside.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So my conscious experience, it's the way the physics of my brain, particularly my cortex
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
feels from the inside.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And so if you are paramecium, you got to remember, you say paramecium, well, that's a pretty
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
dumb creature.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It is, but it has already a billion different molecules, probably, you know, 5,000 different
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
proteins assembled in a highly, highly complex system that no single person, no computer
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
system so far on this planet has ever managed to accurately simulate.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Its complexity vastly escapes us.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Yes.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And it may well be that that little thing feels like a tiny bit.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Now, it doesn't have a voice in the head like me.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It doesn't have expectations.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You know, it doesn't have all that complex things, but it may well feel like something.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Yeah.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So this is really interesting.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Can we draw some lines and maybe try to understand the difference between life, intelligence
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
and consciousness?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
How do you see all of those?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
If you had to define what is a living thing, what is a conscious thing and what is an intelligent
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
thing?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Do those intermix for you or are they totally separate?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Okay.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So A, that's a question that we don't have a full answer to.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
A lot of the stuff we're talking about today is full of mysteries and fascinating ones,
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
right?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
For example, you can go to Aristotle, who's probably the most important scientist and
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
philosopher who's ever lived in, certainly in Western culture.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
He had this idea, it's called hylomorphism.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It's quite popular these days, that there are different forms of soul.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
The soul is really the form of something.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
He says, all biological creatures have a vegetative soul.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
That's life principle.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Today, we think we understand something more than it is biochemistry and nonlinear thermodynamics.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Then he said they have a sensitive soul.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Only animals and humans have also a sensitive soul or a petitive soul.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
They can see, they can smell, and they have drives.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
They want to reproduce, they want to eat, et cetera.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And then only humans have what he called a rational soul, okay?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And that idea then made it into Christendom and then the rational soul is the one that
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
lives forever.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
He was very unclear.
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