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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
He wasn't really, I mean, different readings of Aristotle give different, whether did he
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
believe that rational soul was immortal or not.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I probably think he didn't.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
But then, of course, that made it through Plato into Christianity, and then this soul
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
became immortal and then became the connection to God.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So you ask me, essentially, what is our modern conception of these three, Aristotle would
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
have called them different forms.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Life, we think we know something about it, at least life on this planet, right?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Although we don't understand how to originate it, but it's been difficult to rigorously
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
pin down.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You see this in modern definitions of death.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
In fact, right now, there's a conference ongoing, again, that tries to define legally and medically
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
what is death.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It used to be very simple.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Death is you stop breathing, your heart stops beating, you're dead, totally uncontroversial.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
If you're unsure, you wait another 10 minutes.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
If the patient doesn't breathe, he's dead.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Well, now we have ventilators, we have heart pacemakers, so it's much more difficult to
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
define what death is.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Typically, death is defined as the end of life and life is defined before death.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Okay, so we don't have really very good definitions.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Intelligence, we don't have a rigorous definition.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
We know something how to measure, it's called IQ or G factors, right?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And we're beginning to build it in a narrow sense, right?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Like go, AlphaGo and Watson and, you know, Google cars and Uber cars and all of that,
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
it's still narrow AI and some people are thinking about artificial general intelligence.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
But roughly, as we said before, it's something to do with ability to learn and to adapt to
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
new environments.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
But that is, as I said, also, it's radical difference from experience.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And it's very unclear if you build a machine that has AGI, it's not at all a priori, it's
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
not at all clear that this machine will have consciousness, it may or may not.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So let's ask it the other way, do you think if you were to try to build an artificial
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
general intelligence system, do you think figuring out how to build artificial consciousness
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
would help you get to an AGI?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So or put another way, do you think intelligent requires consciousness?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
In human, it goes hand in hand.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
In human, or I think in biology, consciousness, intelligence goes hand in hand, quay is illusion
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
because the brain evolved to be highly complex, complexity via the theory integrated information
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
theory is sort of ultimately is what is closely tied to consciousness.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Ultimately it's causal power upon itself.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And so in evolved systems, they go together.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
In artificial system, particularly in digital machines, they do not go together.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And if you ask me point blank, is Alexa 20.0 in the year 2040, when she can easily pass
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
every Turing test, is she conscious?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
No, even if she claims she's conscious.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
In fact, you could even do a more radical version of this thought experiment.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You can build a computer simulation of the human brain.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You know what Henry Markham in the Blue Brain Project or the Human Brain Project in Switzerland
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
is trying to do.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Let's grant them all the success.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So in 10 years, we have this perfect simulation of the human brain.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Every neuron is simulated and it has a larynx and it has motor neurons.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It has a Broca's area and of course they'll talk and they'll say, hi, I just woke up.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I feel great.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
OK, even that computer simulation that can in principle map onto your brain will not
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
be conscious.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Why?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Because it simulates, it's a difference between the simulated and the real.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So it simulates the behavior associated with consciousness.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It might be, it will, if it's done properly, will have all the intelligence that that particular
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
person they're simulating has.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
But simulating intelligence is not the same as having conscious experiences.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And I give you a really nice metaphor that engineers and physicists typically get.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I can write down Einstein's field equation, nine or ten equations that describe the link
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
in general relativity between curvature and mass.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I can do that.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I can run this on my laptop to predict that the central, the black hole at the center
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
of our galaxy will be so massive that it will twist space time around it so no light can
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
escape.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It's a black hole.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
But funny, have you ever wondered why doesn't this computer simulation suck me in?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It simulates gravity, but it doesn't have the causal power of gravity.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
That's a huge difference.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So it's a difference between the real and the simulator, just like it doesn't get wet
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
inside a computer when the computer runs code that simulates a weather storm.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And so in order to have, to have artificial consciousness, you have to give it the same
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
causal power as the human brain.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You have to build so called a neuromorphic machine that has hardware that is very similar
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
to the human brain, not a digital clocked phenomenon computer.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So that's, just to clarify though, you think that consciousness is not required to create
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
human level intelligence.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It seems to accompany in the human brain, but for machine not.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
That's correct.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So maybe just because this is AGI, let's dig in a little bit about what we mean by intelligence.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So one thing is the G factor, these kind of IQ tests of intelligence.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
But I think if you, maybe another way to say, so in 2040, 2050, people will have Siri that
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
is just really impressive.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Do you think people will say Siri is intelligent?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Yes.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Intelligence is this amorphous thing.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So to be intelligent, it seems like you have to have some kind of connections with other
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
human beings in a sense that you have to impress them with your intelligence.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And there feels, you have to somehow operate in this world full of humans.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And for that, there feels like there has to be something like consciousness.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So you think you can have just the world's best natural NLP system, natural language
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
understanding generation, and that will be, that will get us happy and say, you know what,
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
we've created an AGI.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I don't know happy, but yes, I do believe we can get what we call high level functional
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
intelligence, particular sort of the G, you know, this fluid like intelligence that we
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
cherish, particularly at a place like MIT, right, in machines.
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