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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I see a priori no reasons, and I see a lot of reason to believe it's going to happen
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
very, you know, over the next 50 years or 30 years.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So for beneficial AI, for creating an AI system that's, so you mentioned ethics, that is exceptionally
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
intelligent but also does not do, does, you know, aligns its values with our values as
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
humanity.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Do you think then it needs consciousness?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Yes, I think that that is a very good argument that if we're concerned about AI and the threat
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
of AI, a la Nick Bostrom, existentialist threat, I think having an intelligence that has empathy,
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
right, why do we find abusing a dog, why do most of us find that abhorrent, abusing any
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
animal, right?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Why do we find that abhorrent because we have this thing called empathy, which if you look
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
at the Greek really means feeling with, I feel a path of empathy, I have feeling with
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
you.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I see somebody else suffer that isn't even my conspecific, it's not a person, it's not
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
my wife or my kids, it's a dog, but I feel naturally most of us, not all of us, most
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
of us will feel emphatic.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And so it may well be in the long term interest of survival of homo sapiens sapiens that if
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
we do build AGI and it really becomes very powerful that it has an emphatic response
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
and doesn't just exterminate humanity.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So as part of the full conscious experience to create a consciousness, artificial or in
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
our human consciousness, do you think fear, maybe we're going to get into the earlier
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
days with Nietzsche and so on, but do you think fear and suffering are essential to
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
have consciousness?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Do you have to have the full range of experience to have a system that has experience or can
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
you have a system that only has very particular kinds of very positive experiences?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Look you can have in principle, people have done this in the rat where you implant an
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
electrode in the hypothalamus, the pleasure center of the rat and the rat stimulates itself
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
above and beyond anything else.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It doesn't care about food or natural sex or drink anymore, it just stimulates itself
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
because it's such a pleasurable feeling.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I guess it's like an orgasm just you have all day long.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And so a priori I see no reason why you need a great variety.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Now clearly to survive that wouldn't work, right?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
But if I'd engineered artificially, I don't think you need a great variety of conscious
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
experience.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You could have just pleasure or just fear.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It might be a terrible existence, but I think that's possible at least on conceptual logical
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
ground.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Because any real creature whether artificially engineered, you want to give it fear, the
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
fear of extinction that we all have.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And you also want to give it positive repetitive states, states that you want the machine encouraged
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
to do because they give the machine positive feedback.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So you mentioned panpsychism, to jump back a little bit, everything having some kind
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
of mental property.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
How do you go from there to something like human consciousness?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So everything having some elements of consciousness, is there something special about human consciousness?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So it's not everything.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Like a spoon, the form of panpsychism I think about doesn't ascribe consciousness to anything
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
like this, the spoon on my liver.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
However, the theory, the integrated information theory does say that the system, even one
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
that looks from the outside relatively simple, at least if they have this internal causal
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
power, it does feel like something.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
The theory a priori doesn't say anything what's special about human.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Biologically we know the one thing that's special about human is we speak and we have
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
an overblown sense of our own importance.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
We believe we're exceptional and we're just God's gift to the universe.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
But behaviorally the main thing that we have, we can plan over the long term, we have language
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
and that gives us an enormous amount of power and that's why we are the current dominant
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
species on the planet.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So you mentioned God, you grew up a devout Roman Catholic family, so with consciousness
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
you're sort of exploring some really deeply fundamental human things that religion also
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
touches on.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Where does religion fit into your thinking about consciousness?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You've grown throughout your life and changed your views on religion as far as I understand.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Yeah, I mean I'm now much closer to, I'm not a Roman Catholic anymore, I don't believe
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
there's sort of this God, the God I was educated to believe in, sits somewhere in the fullness
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
of time, I'll be united in some sort of everlasting bliss, I just don't see any evidence for that.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Look, the world, the night is large and full of wonders, there are many things that I don't
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
understand, I think many things that we as a cult, look we don't even understand more
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
than 4% of all the universe, dark matter, dark energy, we have no idea what it is, maybe
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
it's lost socks, what do I know?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So all I can tell you is it's sort of my current religious or spiritual sentiment is much closer
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
to some form of Buddhism, without the reincarnation unfortunately, there's no evidence for it
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
than reincarnation.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So can you describe the way Buddhism sees the world a little bit?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Well so they talk about, so when I spent several meetings with the Dalai Lama and what always
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
impressed me about him, he really, unlike for example let's say the Pope or some Cardinal,
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
he always emphasized minimizing the suffering of all creatures.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So they have this, from the early beginning they look at suffering in all creatures, not
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
just in people, but in everybody, this universal and of course by degrees, an animal in general
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
is less capable of suffering than a well developed, normally developed human and they think consciousness
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
pervades in this universe and they have these techniques, you can think of them like mindfulness
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
etc. and meditation that tries to access what they claim of this more fundamental aspect
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
of reality.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I'm not sure it's more fundamental, I think about it, there's the physical and then there's
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
this inside view, consciousness and those are the two aspects that's the only thing
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I have access to in my life and you've got to remember my conscious experience and your
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
conscious experience comes prior to anything you know about physics, comes prior to knowledge
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
about the universe and atoms and super strings and molecules and all of that.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
The only thing you directly are acquainted with is this world that's populated with things
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
in images and sounds in your head and touches and all of that.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I actually have a question, so it sounds like you kind of have a rich life, you talk about
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
rock climbing and it seems like you really love literature and consciousness is all about
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
experiencing things, so do you think that has helped your research on this topic?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Yes, particularly if you think about it, the various states, so for example when you do
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
rock climbing or now I do rowing, crew rowing and a bike every day, you can get into this
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
thing called the zone and I've always wanted about it, particularly with respect to consciousness
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
because it's a strangely addictive state.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Once people have it once, they want to keep on going back to it and you wonder what is
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
it so addicting about it and I think it's the experience of almost close to pure experience
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