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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
some other cells external environment, right? So where does that with that border between you,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:29:57.280
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you and the outside world, you don't really know where that is, right? Every every collection of
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:30:02.160
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
cell has to figure that out from scratch. And the fact that evolution requires all of these things
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:30:05.680
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to figure out what they are, what effectors they have, what sensors they have, where does it make
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:30:10.880
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
sense to draw a boundary between me and the outside world? The fact that you have to build all
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:30:15.520
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that from scratch, this autopoiesis is what defines the border of a self. Now, biology uses like a
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:30:18.960
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
multi a multi scale competency architecture, meaning that every level has goals. So so
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:30:26.320
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
molecular networks have goals, cells have goals, tissues, organs, colonies. And and it's the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:30:31.760
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
interplay of all of those that that enable biology to solve problems in new ways, for example, in
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:30:38.160
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
xenobots and various other things. This is, you know, it's exactly as you said, in many ways,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:30:43.280
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the cells are discovering new ways of being. But at the same time, evolution certainly shapes all
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:30:50.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
this. So so evolution is very good at this agential bioengineering, right? When evolution
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:30:56.080
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
is discovering a new way of being an animal, you know, an animal or a plant or something,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:31:01.680
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
sometimes it's by changing the hardware, you know, protein, changing proteins, protein structure,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:31:06.000
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and so on. But much of the time, it's not by changing the hardware, it's by changing the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:31:10.160
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
signals that the cells give to each other. It's doing what we as engineers do, which is try to
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:31:14.160
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
convince the cells to do various things by using signals, experiences, stimuli. That's what biology
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:31:17.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
does. It has to, because it's not dealing with a blank slate. Every time as you know, if you're
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:31:22.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
evolution, and you're trying to make make a make an organism, you're not dealing with a passive
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:31:27.360
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
material that is fresh, and you have to specify it already wants to do certain things. So the easiest
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:31:32.960
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
way to do that search to find whatever is going to be adaptive, is to find the signals that are
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:31:37.760
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
going to convince cells to do various things, right? Your sense is that evolution operates
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:31:42.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
both in the software and the hardware. And it's just easier, more efficient to operate in the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:31:48.480
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
software. Yes. And I should also say, I don't think the distinction is sharp. In other words,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:31:54.000
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I think it's a continuum. But I think we can but I think it's a meaningful distinction where you can
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
make changes to a particular protein, and now the enzymatic function is different, and it metabolizes
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:32:03.120
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
differently, and whatever, and that will have implications for fitness. Or you can change the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:32:08.480
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
huge amount of information in the genome that isn't structural at all. It's, it's, it's signaling,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:32:14.080
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
it's when and how do cells say certain things to each other. And that can have massive changes,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
as far as how it's going to solve problems. I mean, this idea of multi hierarchical
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
competence architecture, which is incredible to think about. So this hierarchy that evolution
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
builds, I don't know who's responsible for this. I also see the incompetence of bureaucracies
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of humans when they get together. So how the hell does evolution build this, where at every level,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:32:43.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
only the best get to stick around, they somehow figure out how to do their job without knowing
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:32:53.200
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the bigger picture. And then there's like the bosses that do the bigger thing somehow, or that
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:32:57.360
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you can now abstract away the small group of cells as a as an organ or something. And then
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that organ does something bigger in the context of the full body or something like this.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
How is that built? Is there some intuition you can kind of provide of how that's constructed,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:33:17.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that that hierarchical competence architecture? I love that competence,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:33:23.680
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
just the word competence is pretty cool in this context, because everybody's good at their job.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:33:29.680
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah, no, it's really key. And the other nice thing about competency is that so my central
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:33:34.080
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
belief in all of this is that engineering is the right perspective on all of this stuff,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:33:39.280
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
because it gets you away from subjective terms. You know, people talk about sentience and this
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:33:43.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and that those things very hard to define, or people argue about them philosophically.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I think that engineering terms like competency, like, you know, pursuit of goals, right? All of
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:33:54.880
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
these things are, are empirically incredibly useful, because you know, when you see it,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:34:02.080
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and if it helps you build, right, if I if I can pick the right level, I say, this thing has,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:34:06.400
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I believe this is x level of like, competency, I think it's like a thermostat, or I think it's
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:34:11.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
like a better thermostat, or I think it's a, you know, various other kinds of, you know,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:34:17.200
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
many, many different kinds of complex systems. If that helps me to control and predict and build
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:34:22.800
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
such systems, then that's all there is to say, there's no more philosophy to argue about. So I
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
like competency in that way, because you can quantify, you could, you have to, in fact, you
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
have to, you have to make a claim competent at what? And then, or if I say, if I tell you,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
it has a goal, the question is, what's the goal? And how do you know? And I say, well, because
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
every time I deviated from this particular state, that's what it spends energy to get back to,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that's the goal. And we can quantify it, and we can be objective about it. So so so the the,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:34:46.320
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
we're not used to thinking about this, I give a talk sometimes called Why don't robots get cancer,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:34:51.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
right? And the reason robots don't get cancer is because generally speaking, with a few exceptions,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:34:56.000
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
our architectures have been, you've got a bunch of dumb parts. And you hope that if you put them
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:35:00.160
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
together, the the the overlying machine will have some intelligence and do something rather,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:35:05.280
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
right, but the individual parts don't don't care, they don't have an agenda. Biology isn't like
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:35:09.520
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that every level has an agenda. And the final outcome is the result of cooperation and competition,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:35:13.280
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
both within and across levels. So for example, during embryogenesis, your tissues and organs are
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:35:20.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
competing with each other. And it's actually a really important part of development, there's a
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:35:25.360
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
reason they compete with each other, they're not all just, you know, sort of helping each other,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:35:28.800
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
they're also competing for information for metabolic for limited metabolic constraints.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:35:33.440
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
But to get back to your your other point, which is, you know, which is which is the seems like
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
really efficient and good and so on compared to some of our human efforts. We also have to keep
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:35:43.440
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
in mind that what happens here is that each level bends the option space for the level beneath so
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:35:48.800
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that your parts basically they don't see the the geometry. So I'm using them. And I think I take
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:35:56.320
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I take this the seriously terminology from from like, from like relativity, right, where the space
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
is literally bent. So the option space is deformed by the higher level so that the lower levels, all
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:36:10.160
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
they really have to do is go down their concentration gradient, they don't have to,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:36:15.120
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
in fact, they don't, they can't know what the big picture is. But if you bend the space just right,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:36:18.000
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
if they do what locally seems right, they end up doing your bidding, they end up doing things that
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
are optimal in the in the higher space. Conversely, because the components are good at getting their
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
job done, you as the higher level don't need to try to compute all the low level controls,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:36:33.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
all you're doing is bending the space, you don't know or care how they're going to do it.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:36:38.880
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Give you a super simple example in the in the tappel, we found that okay, so so tappels need
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:36:42.160
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to become frogs and to become to go from a tappel head to a frog head, you have to rearrange the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:36:47.680
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
face. So the eyes have to move forward, the jaws have to come out the nostrils move like everything
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
moves. It used to be thought that because all tappels look the same, and all frogs look the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:36:55.200
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
same. If you just remember, if every piece just moves in the right direction, the right amount,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:36:59.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
then you get your you get your fraud. Right. So we decided to test we I have this hypothesis that I
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
thought I thought actually, the system is probably more intelligent than that. So what did we do?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
We made what we call Picasso tappels. So these are so everything is scrambled. So the eyes are on the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:37:11.600
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
back of the head, the jaws are off to the side, everything is scrambled. Well, guess what they
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:37:15.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
make, they make pretty normal frogs, because all the different things move around in novel
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:37:18.960
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
paths configurations until they get to the correct froggy sort of frog face configuration,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
then they stop. So, so the thing about that is now imagine evolution, right? So, so you make some
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
sort of mutation, and it does, like every mutation, it does many things. So something good comes of it,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:37:34.080
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
but also it moves your mouth off to the side, right? Now, if if there wasn't this multi scale
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
competency, you can see where this is going, if there wasn't this multi scale competency,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the organism would be dead, your fitness is zero, because you can't eat. And you would never get to
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
explore the other beneficial consequences of that mutation, you'd have to wait until you find some
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
other way of doing it without moving the mouth, that's really hard. So, so the fitness landscape
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
would be incredibly rugged evolution would take forever. The reason it works, one of the reasons
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:38:01.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
it works so well, is because you do that, no worries, the mouth will find its way where where
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
it belongs, right? So now you get to explore. So what that means is that all of these mutations
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that otherwise would be deleterious are now neutral, because the competency of the parts
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