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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
make up for all kinds of things. So all the noise of development, all the variability in the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:38:21.280
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
environment, all these things, the competency of the parts makes up for it. So the so so that's
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:38:26.480
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
all that's all fantastic, right? That's all that's all great. The only other thing to remember when
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:38:32.080
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
we compare this to human efforts is this. Every component has its own goals in various spaces,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:38:36.080
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
usually with very little regard for the welfare of the other levels. So so as a simple example,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:38:41.040
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you know, you as a as a complex system, you will go out and you will do you know, jiu jitsu,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:38:46.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
or whatever, you'll have some go you have to go rock climbing, scrape a bunch of cells off your
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
hands. And then you're happy as a system, right? You come back, and you've accomplished some goals,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and you're really happy. Those cells are dead. They're gone. Right? Did you think about those
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
cells? Not really, right? You had some you had some bruising out selfish SOB. That's it. And so
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and so that's the thing to remember is that, you know, and we know this from from history is that
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
is that just being a collective isn't enough. Because what the goals of that collective will
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
be relative to the welfare of the individual parts is a massively open and justify the means
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I'm telling you, Stalin was onto something. No, that's the danger. But we can exactly that's the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:39:24.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
danger of for us humans, we have to construct ethical systems under which we don't take seriously
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the full mechanism of biology and apply it to the way the world functions,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:39:39.760
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
which is which is an interesting line we've drawn. The world that built us is the one we
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:39:43.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
reject in some sense, when we construct human societies, the idea that this country was founded
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:39:51.680
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
on that all men are created equal. That's such a fascinating idea. That's like, you're fighting
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:39:59.120
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
against nature and saying, well, there's something bigger here than a hierarchical competency
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:40:05.440
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
architecture. But there's so many interesting things you said. So from an algorithmic perspective,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the act of bending the option space. That's really, that's really profound. Because if you
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:40:21.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
look at the way AI systems are built today, there's a big system, like I said, with robots,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:40:29.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and as a goal, and he gets better and better at optimizing that goal at accomplishing that goal.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
But if biology built a hierarchical system where everything is doing computation,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:40:42.080
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and everything is accomplishing the goal, not only that, it's kind of dumb,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you know, with the limited with a bent option space is just doing the thing that's the easiest
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
thing for in some sense. And somehow that allows you to have turtles on top of turtles,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:41:03.360
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
literally dumb systems on top of dumb systems that as a whole create something incredibly smart.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah, I mean, every system is has some degree of intelligence in its own problem domain. So,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
so cells will have problems they're trying to solve in physiological space and transcriptional
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:41:25.200
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
space. And then I can give you some some cool examples of that. But the collective is trying
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to solve problems in anatomical space, right and forming a, you know, a creature and growing your
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
blood vessels and so on. And then the collective the the the whole body is solving yet other
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
problems, they may be in social space and linguistic space and three dimensional space.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
And who knows, you know, the group might be solving problems in, you know, I don't know,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
some sort of financial space or something. So one of the major differences with with most,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
with most AIs today is is a the kind of flatness of the architecture, but also of the fact that
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
they're constructed from outside their their borders, and they're, you know, so a few. So,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to a large extent, and of course, there are counter examples now, but but to a large extent,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:42:14.400
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
our technology has been such that you create a machine or a robot, it knows what its sensors are,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:42:18.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
it knows what its effectors are, it knows the boundary between it and the outside world,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:42:23.760
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
although this is given from the outside. Biology constructs this from scratch. Now the best example
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of this that that originally in robotics was actually Josh Bongard's work in 2006, where he
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
made these, these robots that did not know their shape to start with. So like a baby, they sort of
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:42:38.880
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
floundered around, they made some hypotheses, well, I did this, and I moved in this way. Well,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
maybe I'm a whatever, maybe I have wheels, or maybe I have six legs or whatever, right? And
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:42:47.040
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
they would make a model and eventually will crawl around. So that's, I mean, that's really good.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
That's part of the autopoiesis, but we can go a step further. And some people are doing this. And
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
then we're sort of working on some of this too, is this idea that let's even go back further,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you don't even know what sensors you have, you don't know where you end in the outside world
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
begins. All you have is is certain things like active inference, meaning you're trying to minimize
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
surprise, right? You have some metabolic constraints, you don't have all the energy you
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:43:11.200
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
need, you don't have all the time in the world to think about everything you want to think about. So
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that means that you can't afford to be a micro reductionist, you know, all this data coming in,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:43:18.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you have to course grain it and say, I'm gonna take all this stuff, and I'm gonna call that a
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
cat. I'm gonna take all this, I'm gonna call that the edge of the table I don't want to fall off of.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
And I don't want to know anything about the micro states, what I want to know is what is the optimal
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:43:30.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
way to cut up my world. And by the way, this thing over here, that's me. And the reason that's me is
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:43:34.480
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
because I have more control over this than I have over any of this other stuff. And so now you can
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:43:38.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
begin to write. So that's self construction at that, that figuring out making models of the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:43:42.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
outside world, and then turning that inwards, and starting to make a model of yourself, right, which
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:43:46.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
immediately starts to get into issues of agency and control. Because in order to if you are under
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:43:51.120
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
metabolic constraints, meaning you don't have the energy, right, that all the energy in the world,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:43:58.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you have to be efficient, that immediately forces you to start telling stories about coarse grained
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:44:02.240
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
agents that do things, right, you don't have the energy to like Laplace's demon, you know,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:44:08.000
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
calculate every, every possible state that's going to happen, you have to you have to course grain,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:44:11.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and you have to say, that is the kind of creature that does things, either things that I avoid,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:44:17.360
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
or things that I will go towards, that's a major food or whatever, whatever it's going to be.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
And so right at the base of simple, very simple organisms starting to make
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:44:25.280
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
models of agents doing things, that is the origin of models of free will, basically, right, because
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you see the world around you as having agency. And then you turn that on yourself. And you say,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
wait, I have agency too, I can I do things, right. And and then you make decisions about what you're
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:44:42.880
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
going to do. So all of this one one model is to view all of those kinds of things as
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:44:47.440
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
being driven by that early need to determine what you are and to do so and to then take
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:44:53.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
actions in the most energetically efficient space possible. Right. So free will emerges
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:44:59.600
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
when you try to simplify, tell a nice narrative about your environment. I think that's very
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:45:04.800
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
plausible. Yeah. You think free was an illusion. So you're kind of implying that it's a useful hack.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Well, I'll say two things. The first thing is, I think I think it's very plausible to say that
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:45:19.360
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
any organism that self or any agent that self whether it's biological or not, any agent that
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:45:24.320
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
self constructs under energy constraints, is going to believe in free will, we'll get to whether it
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:45:30.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
has free will momentarily. But but I think but I think what what it definitely drives is a view of
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:45:36.960
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
yourself and the outside world as an agential view, I think that's inescapable. So that's true
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:45:41.200
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
for even primitive organisms? I think so. I think that's now now they don't have now obviously,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you have to scale down, right. So so so so they don't have the kinds of complex metacognition
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:45:50.480
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that we have. So they can do long term planning and thinking about free will and so on and so on.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:45:55.360
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
But but the sense of agency is really useful to accomplish tasks simple or complicated. That's
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:45:59.520
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
right. In all kinds of spaces, not just in obvious three dimensional space. I mean, we're very good
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:46:05.040
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that the thing is, humans are very good at detecting agency of like medium sized objects
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
moving at medium speeds in the three dimensional world, right? We see a bowling ball and we see a
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:46:16.720
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
mouse and we immediately know what the difference is, right? And how we're going to mostly things
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you can eat or get eaten by. Yeah, yeah. That's our that's our training set, right? From the time
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:46:23.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you're little, your training set is visual data on on this this like little chunk of your experience.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
But imagine if imagine if from the time that we were born, we had innate senses of your blood
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
chemistry, if you could feel your blood chemistry, the way you can see, right, you had a high bandwidth
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
connection, and you could feel your blood chemistry, and you could see, you could sense all
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:46:42.960
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the things that your organs were doing. So your pancreas, your liver, all the things. If we had
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:46:46.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that you we would be very good at detecting intelligence and physiological space, we would
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:46:51.040
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
know the level of intelligence that our various organs were deploying to deal with things that
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#00:46:55.760
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
were coming to anticipate the stimuli to, you know, but but we're just terrible at that. We
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