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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you know, new transcriptional circuits to get them to do new things. Of course we'll throw some of
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:21:13.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that in, but we specifically stayed away from all of that because in the first few papers,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:21:17.200
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and there's some more coming down the pike that are, I think going to be pretty, pretty dynamite,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
um, that, uh, we want to show what the native cells are made of. Because what happens is,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you know, if you engineer the heck out of them, right, if we were to put in new, you know,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
new transcription factors and some new metabolic machinery and whatever, people will say, well,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
okay, you engineered this and you made it do whatever. And fine. I wanted to show, uh, and,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and, and the whole team, uh, wanted to show the plasticity and the intelligence in the biology.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
What does it do that's surprising before you even start manipulating the hardware in that way?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah. Don't try to, uh, over control the thing. Let it flourish. The, the full beauty of the
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
biological system. Why Xenopus Levus? How do you pronounce it? The frog.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Xenopus Levus. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very popular.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Why this frog?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
It's been used since, uh, I think the fifties. Uh, it's just very convenient because you can,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you know, we, we keep the adults in this, in this, uh, very fine frog habitat. They lay eggs. They
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:22:15.360
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
lay tens of thousands of eggs at a time. Um, the eggs develop right in front of your eyes. It's the
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
most mad magical thing you can, you can see because normally, you know, if you were to deal
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
with mice or rabbits or whatever, you don't see the early stages, right? Cause everything's inside
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the mother. Everything's in a Petri dish at room temperature. So you just, you, you have an egg,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
it's fertilized and you can just watch it divide and divide and divide. And on all the organs
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
form, you can just see it. And at that point, um, the community has, has developed lots of
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:22:40.400
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
different tools for understanding what's going on and also for, for manipulating, right? So it's,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
it's people use it for, um, you know, for understanding birth defects and neurobiology
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and cancer immunology. So you get the whole, uh, embryogenesis in the Petri dish.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
That's so cool to watch. Is there videos of this? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
but yeah, there's, there's amazing videos on, on, online. I mean, mammalian embryos are super cool
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
too. For example, monozygotic twins are what happens when you cut a mammalian embryo in half.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
You don't get two half bodies. You get two perfectly normal bodies because it's a
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
regeneration event, right? Development is just the, it's just the kind of regeneration really.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
And why this particular frog? It's just, uh, cause they were doing in the fifties and.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
It breeds well in, um, you know, in, in, it's easy to raise in, in the laboratory and, uh,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
it's very prolific and all the tools basically for decades, people have been developing tools.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
There's other, some people use other frogs, but I have to say this is, this is, this is important.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Xenobots are fundamentally not anything about frogs. So, um, I can't say too much about this
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
cause it's not published and peer reviewed yet, but we've made Xenobots out of other things that
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
have nothing to do with frogs. It's, this is not a frog phenomenon. This is, we, we started with
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:23:50.400
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
frog because it's so convenient, but this, this, this plasticity is not a fraud. You know, it's
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:23:54.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
not related to the fact that they're frogs. What happens when you kiss it? Does it turn
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:23:59.040
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
into a prince? No. Or a princess? Which way? Uh, prince. Yeah. Prince should be a prince.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah. Uh, that's an experiment that I don't believe we've done. And if we have, I don't
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
want to collaborate, I can, I can take on the lead, uh, on that effort. Okay, cool. Uh,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
how does the cells coordinate? Let's focus in on just the embryogenesis. So there's one cell,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:24:17.680
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
so it divides, doesn't have to be very careful about what each cell starts doing once they divide.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yes. And like, when there's three of them, it's like the cofounders or whatever,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
like, well, like slow down, you're responsible for this. When do they become specialized and
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
how do they coordinate that specialization? So, so this is the basic science of developmental
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
biology. There's a lot known about all of that, but, um, but I'll tell you what I think is kind
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:24:49.440
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of the most important part, which is, yes, it's very important who does what. However,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
because going back to this issue of why I made this claim that, um, biology doesn't take the past
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
too seriously. And what I mean by that is it doesn't assume that everything is the way it's,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
it's expected to be. Right. And here's an example of that. Um, this was, this was done, this was,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:25:12.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
this was an old experiment going back to the forties, but, um, basically imagine imagine
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
it's a new salamander and it's got these little tube tubules that go to the kidneys, right? It's
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
a little tube. Take a cross section of that tube. You see eight to 10 cells that have
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
cooperated to make this little tube in cross section, right? So one amazing, one amazing
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
thing you can do is, um, you can, you can mess with a very early cell division to make the cells
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
gigantic, bigger. You can, you can make them different sizes. You can force them to be different
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
sizes. So if you make the cells different sizes, the whole nude is still the same size.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
So if you take a cross section through the, through that tubule, instead of eight to 10
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
cells, you might have four or five or you might have, you know, three until you make the cells so
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
enormous that one single cell wraps around itself and, and gives you that same large scale structure
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
with a completely different molecular mechanism. So now instead of cell to cell communication to
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
make a tubule, instead of that, it's one cell using the cytoskeleton to bend itself around.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
So think about what that means in the service of a large scale, talk about top down control,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
right? In the service of a large scale anatomical feature, different molecular mechanisms get
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
called up. So now think about this, you're, you're, you're a nude cell and trying to make an embryo.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
If you had a fixed idea of who was supposed to do what, you'd be screwed because now your cells
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
are gigantic. Nothing would work. The, there's an incredible tolerance for changes in the size of
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the parts and the amount of DNA in those parts. Um, all sorts of stuff you can, you can, the life
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
is highly interoperable. You can put electrodes in there and you can put weird nanomaterials. It
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
still works. It's, it's, uh, this is that problem solving action, right? It's able to do what it
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
needs to do, even when circumstances change. That is, you know, the hallmark of intelligence,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
right? William James defined intelligence as the ability to get to the same goal by different
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
means. That's this, you get to the same goal by completely different means. And so, so,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
so why am I bringing this up is just to say that, yeah, it's important for the cells to do the right
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
stuff, but they have incredible tolerances for things not being what you expect and to still
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
get their job done. So if you're, you know, um, all of these things are not hardwired.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
There are organisms that might be hardwired. For example, the nematode C elegans in that organism,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
every cell is numbered, meaning that every C elegans has exactly the same number of cells
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
as every other C elegans. They're all in the same place. They all divide. There's literally a map
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of how it works that in that, in that sort of system, it's, it's, it's much more cookie cutter,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
but, but most, most organisms are incredibly plastic in that way. Is there something particularly
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
magical to you about the whole developmental biology process? Um, is there something you
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
could say, cause you just said it, they're very good at accomplishing the goal of the job they
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
need to do the competency thing, but you get fricking organism from one cell. It's like, uh,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I mean, it's very hard, hard to intuit that whole process to even think about reverse engineering
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that process. Right. Very hard to the point where I often just imagine, I, I sometimes ask my
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
students to do this thought experiment. Imagine you were, you were shrunk down to the, to the scale
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of a single cell and you were in the middle of an embryo and you were looking around at what's going
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
on and the cells running around, some cells are dying at the, you know, every time you look,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
it's kind of a different number of cells for most organisms. And so I think that if you didn't know
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
what embryonic development was, you would have no clue that what you're seeing is always going to
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
make the same thing. Nevermind knowing what that, what that is. Nevermind being able to say, even
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
with full genomic information, being able to say, what the hell are they building? We have no way
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to do that. But, but just even to guess that, wow, the, the, the outcome of all this activity is it's
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
always going to be, it's always going to build the same thing. The imperative to create the final you
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
as you are now is there already. So you can, you would, so you start from the same embryo,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you create a very similar organism. Yeah. Except for cases like the Xenobots, when you give them
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
a different environment, they come up with a different way to be adaptive in that environment.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
But overall, I mean, so, so I think, so I think to, you know, kind of summarize it,
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