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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the better locus of control is not always at the lowest level. This is why we don't all program
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
with a soldering iron. We take advantage of the high level intelligences that are there,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:05:18.480
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
intelligences that are there, which means trying to figure out, okay, which of your tissues can
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
learn? What can they learn? Why is it that certain drugs stop working after you take them for a while
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
with this habituation, right? And so can we understand habituation, sensitization, associative
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
learning, these kinds of things in chemical pathways? We're going to have a completely
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
different way. I think we're going to have a completely different way of using drugs and of
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
medicine in general when we start focusing on the goal states and on the intelligence of our
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
subsystems as opposed to treating everything as if the only path was micromanagement from
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
chemistry upwards. Well, can you speak to this idea of somatic psychiatry? What are somatic cells?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
How do they form networks that use bioelectricity to have memory and all those kinds of things?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah. What are somatic cells like basics here? Somatic cells just means the cells of your body.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Soma just means body, right? So somatic cells are just the... I'm not even specifically making a
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
distinction between somatic cells and stem cells or anything like that. I mean, basically all the
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
cells in your body, not just neurons, but all the cells in your body. They form electrical
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
networks during embryogenesis, during regeneration. What those networks are doing
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
in part is processing information about what our current shape is and what the goal shape is.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Now, how do I know this? Because I can give you a couple of examples. One example is when we started
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
studying this, we said, okay, here's a planarian. A planarian is a flatworm. It has one head and one
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
tail normally. And the amazing... There's several amazing things about planaria, but basically they
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:06:50.400
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
kind of... I think planaria hold the answer to pretty much every deep question of life.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
For one thing, they're similar to our ancestors. So they have true symmetry. They have a true
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
brain. They're not like earthworms. They're a much more advanced life form. They have lots
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of different internal organs, but they're these little... They're about maybe two centimeters in
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the centimeter to two in size. They have a head and a tail. And the first thing is planaria are
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
immortal. So they do not age. There's no such thing as an old planarian. So that right there
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
tells you that these theories of thermodynamic limitations on lifespan are wrong. It's not that
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
well over time everything degrades. No, planaria can keep it going for probably how long have
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
they been around 400 million years. So the planaria in our lab are actually in physical
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
continuity with planaria that were here 400 million years ago. So there's planaria that
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
have lived that long essentially. What does it mean physical continuity? Because what they do
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
is they split in half. The way they reproduce is they split in half. So the planaria, the back end
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
grabs the petri dish, the front end takes off and they rip themselves in half. But isn't it some
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
sense where like you are a physical continuation? Yes, except that we go through a bottleneck of one
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
cell, which is the egg. They do not. I mean, they can. There's certain planaria. Got it. So we go
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
through a very ruthless compression process and they don't. Yes. Like an auto encoder, you know,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
sort of squashed down to one cell and then back out. These guys just tear themselves in half.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
And so the other amazing thing about them is they regenerate. So you can cut them into pieces.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
The record is, I think, 276 or something like that by Thomas Hunt Morgan. And each piece regrows a
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
perfect little worm. They know exactly, every piece knows exactly what's missing, what needs
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to happen. In fact, if you chop it in half, as it grows the other half, the original tissue shrinks
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
so that when the new tiny head shows up, they're proportional. So it keeps perfect proportion.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
If you starve them, they shrink. If you feed them again, they expand. Their control,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
their anatomical control is just insane. Somebody cut them into over 200 pieces.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah. Thomas Hunt Morgan did. Hashtag science. Amazing. And maybe more. I mean,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
they didn't have antibiotics back then. I bet he lost some due to infection. I bet it's
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
actually more than that. I bet you could do more than that. Humans can't do that.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Well, yes. I mean, again, true, except that... Maybe you can at the embryonic level.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Well, that's the thing, right? So when I talk about this, I say, just remember that
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
as amazing as it is to grow a whole planarian from a tiny fragment,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
half of the human population can grow a full body from one cell. So development is really,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you can look at development as just an example of regeneration.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah. To think, we'll talk about regenerative medicine, but there's some sense of what would
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
be like that warm in like 500 years where I can just go regrow a hand.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yep. With given time, it takes time to grow large things.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
For now.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah, I think so. I think.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
You can probably... Why not accelerate? Oh, biology takes its time?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I'm not going to say anything is impossible, but I don't know of a way to accelerate these
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
processes. I think it's possible. I think we are going to be regenerative, but I don't know of a
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
way to make it faster.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I could just think people from a few centuries from now would be like, well, they used to have
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to wait a week for the hand to regrow. It's like when the microwave was invented. You can toast
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
your... What's that called when you put a cheese on a toast? It's delicious is all I know. I'm
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
blanking. Anywho. All right. So planaria, why were we talking about the magical planaria that they
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
have the mystery of life?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah. So the reason we're talking about planaria is not only are they immortal,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
not only do they regenerate every part of the body, they generally don't get cancer,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
which we can talk about why that's important. They're smart. They can learn things. You can
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
train them. And it turns out that if you train a planaria and then cut their heads off, the tail
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
will regenerate a brand new brain that still remembers the original information.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Do they have a biological network going on or no?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yes.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
So their somatic cells are forming a network. And that's what you mean by a true brain? What's the
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
requirement for a true brain?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Like everything else, it's a continuum, but a true brain has certain characteristics as far as the
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
density, like a localized density of neurons that guides behavior.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
In the head.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Exactly. Exactly. If you cut their head off, the tail doesn't do anything. It just sits there
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
until a new brain regenerates. They have all the same neurotransmitters that you and I have.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
But here's why we're talking about them in this context. So here's your planaria. You cut off the
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
head. You cut off the tail. You have a middle fragment. That middle fragment has to make one
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
head and one tail. How does it know how many of each to make? And where do they go? How come it
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
doesn't switch? How come, right? So we did a very simple thing. And we said, okay, let's make the
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
hypothesis that there's a somatic electrical network that remembers the correct pattern,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:11:46.960
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and that what it's doing is recalling that memory and building to that pattern.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
So what we did was we used a way to visualize electrical activity in these cells, right? It's a
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:11:55.760
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
variant of what people used to look for electricity in the brain. And we saw that that fragment has a
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
very particular electrical pattern. You can literally see it once we developed the technique.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
It has a very particular electrical pattern that shows you where the head and the tail goes,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
right? You can just see it. And then we said, okay, well now let's test the idea that that's
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
a memory that actually controls where the head and the tail goes. Let's change that pattern. So
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
basically, incept the false memory. And so what you can do is you can do that in many different
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
ways. One way is with drugs that target ion channels to say, and so you pick these drugs
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and you say, okay, I'm going to do it so that instead of this one head, one tail electrical
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
pattern, you have a two headed pattern, right? You're just editing the electrical information
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
in the network. When you do that, guess what the cells build? They build a two headed worm.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
And the coolest thing about it, no genetic changes. So we haven't touched the genome.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
The genome is totally wild type. But the amazing thing about it is that when you take these two
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
headed animals and you cut them into pieces again, some of those pieces will continue to
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