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[1515.06 --> 1518.28] mean i'll start i'll speak to the second part of that first because i've actually been working |
[1518.28 --> 1524.94] on php for about the past dozen years or so um so i've got a lot of skin in the game in terms of |
[1524.94 --> 1531.30] code contributed to uh the php source code and and involvement with the community of i i wrote |
[1531.30 --> 1537.22] pretty much the book on writing extensions for php um but at the same time i'm also working here for |
[1537.22 --> 1544.86] for a for facebook on hhvm largely because of that php work um i wrote i'm doing things like writing the |
[1544.86 --> 1550.92] actual extension api itself on the hhvm side so i have interests on both sides of the fence and |
[1550.92 --> 1558.40] um when i come to the list you know it's it's on the one hand it's coming with the uh history of |
[1558.40 --> 1564.08] of like having time and skin in the game with php but it's also coming in with this yeah but she's |
[1564.08 --> 1571.30] working on that other php thing and um how how much of what she's requesting in this rfc or whatever |
[1571.30 --> 1578.70] is to improve hhvm so it can take over the world um i i don't think i have to tell you that there |
[1578.70 --> 1584.80] there is um there is some degree of sort of distrust about facebook and facebook's intentions |
[1584.80 --> 1591.24] um i mean do any google search and you'll get funny of those conspiracy theories um and some |
[1591.24 --> 1596.24] of those come through because we're all people and we you know we we want to protect what we see is |
[1596.24 --> 1603.44] good and you know php's open source uh philosophy i think is actually really good it's a really open |
[1603.44 --> 1610.38] project it's got no bdfl it's got nobody saying no this is how the project must go forward and that's |
[1610.38 --> 1615.40] why there's been no forks because what goes into the language is what the people who are actively |
[1615.40 --> 1621.86] working on it at the time say is right for the language um so when you've got something like um |
[1621.86 --> 1628.50] facebook suddenly making this big push on its open source uh on its uh implementation of php |
[1628.50 --> 1633.68] saying oh we're we're making this really open source now we're making this really uh friendly to |
[1633.68 --> 1643.38] to developers out there um and uh hey here's a spec for it you can look at that as uh gosh php's |
[1643.38 --> 1652.20] seeing a resurgence or you can look at it as hmm embrace extend and extinguish right um so so i i have |
[1652.20 --> 1659.12] personally gotten some of that that kickback on other um uh posts that i've put on the the mailing list |
[1659.12 --> 1665.12] but that did not happen at all here i think everybody sort of saw the way we released this |
[1665.12 --> 1671.50] um and the way that we you know tried to make sure that we focused on php as the source of truth and |
[1671.50 --> 1680.50] said how can i fault this you know it's it's this is just a thing that now belongs to the php community |
[1680.50 --> 1686.76] like um we with facebook hat on didn't maintain any control over this we said here it is public domain |
[1686.76 --> 1693.22] license cc0 we're putting it into php's git repository so they completely control the documents |
[1693.22 --> 1699.52] um it's it's completely out of facebook's hands at this point maybe that's where we can dig in just |
[1699.52 --> 1704.22] a quick bit because i know we talk about licensing on the show here and there but maybe to catch up |
[1704.22 --> 1710.84] why you chose cc0 it's it's in quotes no rights reserved can you talk about maybe the choice of that |
[1710.84 --> 1715.74] license versus say gpl or some other license you may have chose for other uh open source that facebook |
[1715.74 --> 1722.26] has out there um well i can only speak to it so much because i didn't specifically pick the cc0 license |
[1722.26 --> 1727.50] um my personal favorite um for my projects is bsc license because i just like the little bits of |
[1727.50 --> 1735.08] attribution um but like it comes down to to what your your philosophy about this sort of information |
[1735.08 --> 1738.68] is like we're just talking about a document at the end of the day we're not even talking about software |
[1738.68 --> 1747.46] right um you know what is going to be most useful to a project like php and like i said php is a |
[1747.46 --> 1753.42] really open project and for something like php it makes sense to just say you know what here's some |
[1753.42 --> 1759.64] information for the world um what what do we have to gain by putting a more restrictive license on it |
[1759.64 --> 1769.28] very little um you mentioned gpl um i could i could see the advantage of wanting to say that if |
[1769.28 --> 1775.44] somebody else grabs this and you know adds to it and and extends it you know we would want to make |
[1775.44 --> 1781.76] sure that that's open and visible to everyone um i personally don't like the gpl license um |
[1781.76 --> 1787.64] well i'm not holding you to the fence you're trying to figure out why you chose this place i |
[1787.64 --> 1793.74] just wanted to kind of get a snapshot because mostly from the the vantage point of uh it will |
[1793.74 --> 1798.96] right when somebody does something in the world you you want to um you know depending upon the person |
[1798.96 --> 1805.68] obviously you want to say that person has goodwill for me so or that entity or that organization or |
[1805.68 --> 1809.72] you know so your reputation does precede you in a way that you've done a lot for open source |
[1809.72 --> 1814.54] and i just want to make sure that you have a chance here clearly to to say we chose this license for |
[1814.54 --> 1819.30] this reason for the reasons it's open it's you know it's not ours it's the communities and that |
[1819.30 --> 1825.62] kind of thing so i i didn't want to uh dang all that too far but get the point across yeah i mean the |
[1825.62 --> 1830.98] only thing i could say about that is just like that's the beautiful thing about cc0 it's literally no |
[1830.98 --> 1837.60] strings attached you know yeah and it's just it's a simple license it's about three lines you don't need uh |
[1837.60 --> 1842.92] you don't need a lot of greed to understand a license like that so maybe this is just a |
[1842.92 --> 1850.46] a left-wing question but it seems kind of an obvious one to to me but you know it's just a |
[1850.46 --> 1857.46] document you just said that um it's not like it's code it's not like it's changing php really but what |
[1857.46 --> 1865.36] does this spec what does having it written out um fleshed out open source uh cco uh cc0 license |
[1865.36 --> 1872.86] attached to it what does that do what how does this how do you expect or desire for the community to |
[1872.86 --> 1879.74] change because of this document now being there to specify how php should be it's interesting you |
[1879.74 --> 1884.24] weren't used the phrase it's not changing the language because as it turns out it actually is okay |
[1884.24 --> 1890.78] um one of the first payoffs that we've seen from this is um as you know people are looking through |
[1890.78 --> 1895.30] the document a lot of pull requests coming through for simple things like grammar fixes and things |
[1895.30 --> 1900.22] like that whatever um a few bugs have come up uh one of them that i just worked on the other day |
[1900.22 --> 1906.84] uh noted that the spec says switch statements may only have one default block which i mean i think we |
[1906.84 --> 1914.06] can all agree makes sense um and this user hadn't had noticed at some point in his code that he |
[1914.06 --> 1918.40] wrote a switch statement with two default blocks and it caused a weird bug for him because he |
[1918.40 --> 1924.02] doesn't understand why that first default block wasn't getting executed um and so he filed a bug |
[1924.02 --> 1928.34] report he said this doesn't match php allows multiple default statements and when you have |
[1928.34 --> 1931.80] multiple it'll execute the last one which i think we can all agree is a bit clowny |
[1931.80 --> 1938.44] um so what should we do with that should we fix the spec to say multiple are allowed because that's |
[1938.44 --> 1944.96] what php does well no we shouldn't actually because that's really silly code um and i put it exactly |
[1944.96 --> 1952.00] that way to the list i said this is this is silly behavior that php supports probably by accident let's |
[1952.00 --> 1958.80] fix the language so it matches the spec so that's what we're doing and and that's the benefit of having |
[1958.80 --> 1963.48] that spec you've got a lot of eyes looking at it this and you've got that lived experience of these |
[1963.48 --> 1967.96] developers out in the wild who are saying that doesn't jive with what i know |
[1967.96 --> 1974.96] so facebook has another uh language that they're very interested in their very own hack language |
[1974.96 --> 1979.80] which i think they announced was it this year i think it was 2014 it was a few months yeah i think |
[1979.80 --> 1986.32] it was in april yeah april ish we know hhbm compiles to hack and php um how does hack fit into |
[1986.32 --> 1990.08] this landscape with facebook obviously it's not going to affect the php spec or will it |
[1990.08 --> 1997.76] um so hack um we are writing a second spec actually um rex is already busy back at work |
[1997.76 --> 2003.84] writing a spec for the second word document open huh a second word document yes command or was that |
[2003.84 --> 2010.28] control new never mind uh when that's done um we're most likely going to publish that as well of course |
[2010.28 --> 2015.54] that will be under the the facebook namespace on on github or uh possibly the hhbm namespace i'm not sure |
[2015.54 --> 2023.12] um because it does make sense for us to own that document at least for now um hack is sort of it's |
[2023.12 --> 2028.70] you could describe it as its own language but i think if you know any php you can look at a hack |
[2028.70 --> 2033.56] document and immediately understand what it does because it's it's really more like php plus plus |
[2033.56 --> 2039.36] um which for those of you keeping track of php's rules uh if you have a string that you post |
[2039.36 --> 2044.68] uh increment that would turn out phq try and pronounce that in your head i'll leave that to you |
[2044.68 --> 2054.76] um so hack is uh as i said php plus plus uh it's a different open tag it drops a whole bunch of |
[2054.76 --> 2060.96] some of the clownier bits of php the things that we look at and we say why is that even in the language |
[2060.96 --> 2065.56] um and it can do so safely because obviously if you're writing hack code this is not something |
[2065.56 --> 2071.44] that was written in 1989 and still needs to function right sorry i meant 1999 89 is a bit too far back |
[2071.44 --> 2078.76] um it also adds a number of things that um we noticed sort of developing our own code base |
[2078.76 --> 2082.94] it would have been really nice to have and we're not really sure why php didn't add them |
[2082.94 --> 2089.96] um i know why but that's another story um things like uh scalar type hinting um php only allows type |
[2089.96 --> 2094.06] hinting for arrays and objects so we add type hinting for everything we even go beyond that |
[2094.06 --> 2100.20] parameterized type hinting um the sort of workhorse of php the array that can be a vector or a map or a |
[2100.20 --> 2105.74] set or whatever um we actually define these specifically as a vector a map a set a pair |
[2105.74 --> 2112.26] whatever else um so you can define more uh specialized structures that can behave more sensibly under the |
[2112.26 --> 2117.86] hood if i've got a vector event that should literally be in memory int int int int in in a nice |
[2117.86 --> 2122.74] type packed array um so there's there's a performance gain to be had there but there's |
[2122.74 --> 2127.98] also a readability gain to be had you don't have to look at you know dollar foo as an array and wonder |
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