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[922.92 --> 929.14] kind of a an aside but a throwback to our most recent show which was uh just released today episode |
[929.14 --> 936.20] 127 talking about uh keeping a change log or the project keep a change log from olive oil account uh which |
[936.20 --> 941.84] i could not say correctly on the show but uh yeah it's just whatever that's i can't get over it |
[941.84 --> 946.52] anyways um what you say though sarah is that the first thing you'll notice is that it's written in |
[946.52 --> 953.32] markdown um and that there's this slight lean towards um something called restructured text and |
[953.32 --> 957.92] it's something that i have an interface with can you kind of talk a bit about you know your choice |
[957.92 --> 966.04] of what to write the spec in well the original spec was actually written in ms word um we the the |
[966.04 --> 972.00] contractor that we hired to work on the spec um he's got like a lot of spec chops um he's worked on |
[972.00 --> 978.72] the c spec before um zim's rex and i'm gonna butcher his last name jash j-a-s-c-h-e something like |
[978.72 --> 983.84] that that's hard to say i can't pronounce last names either um he's worked on on specs before but his tool |
[983.84 --> 991.00] of choice is ms word so god bless him let him do what he needs to do um we're not gonna put that into |
[991.00 --> 996.12] any kind of open source uh collaborative uh editing system because that just doesn't work for that |
[996.12 --> 1001.72] um so we had to pick something um we look at github we say oh okay markdown is natively supported |
[1001.72 --> 1007.68] like by github it seems like it's probably expressive enough for what we need to do so let's just use that |
[1007.68 --> 1013.62] as a starting point and we can switch off after that um when i made the original announcement at |
[1013.62 --> 1020.34] ofcon and released that sort of pdf of the sample chapter uh i asked for people's opinions you know |
[1020.34 --> 1026.66] what makes sense to you guys you know what formats do we want to be uh editing it in um and |
[1026.66 --> 1033.90] in those responses from the php mailing list not from internally at facebook um there were |
[1033.90 --> 1038.94] there were of course some bike shedding about oh maybe we should go this direction well this one |
[1038.94 --> 1044.72] has this advantage that one has that advantage maybe ascii docs the right way to go um as to as |
[1044.72 --> 1047.82] is pretty typical with with those kind of forms you know there were a lot of answers |
[1047.82 --> 1051.90] slightly towards restructured text from what i could see but nothing really definitive |
[1051.90 --> 1058.08] um at the end of the day um the guy who was actually doing the transformation from |
[1058.08 --> 1062.78] uh word doc to something sensible joel marcy who i was hoping was going to be on this podcast |
[1062.78 --> 1069.36] but he didn't make it bummer joel you couldn't make it man i miss you where are you joel um at at the |
[1069.36 --> 1073.28] end of the day he had already started migrate uh migrating things into word doc and they were looking |
[1073.28 --> 1079.58] great so i just said you know what finish the word doc and we will fix that later there's always |
[1079.58 --> 1086.66] time for pull requests um and sure enough um one of the first big uh commits that was done by somebody |
[1086.66 --> 1092.56] outside of facebook was to take this big monolithic markdown file and split it up into chapters which |
[1092.56 --> 1096.58] was something i was initially asking joel for and he's like i got so much going on i can't even think |
[1096.58 --> 1103.76] about that much so it's great to see the php community have been so well receptive of this |
[1103.76 --> 1109.02] like like i was i was worried that there was going to be some sort of like oh facebook's trying to take |
[1109.02 --> 1114.58] over the language by imposing the spec on us right but it's it's really just been sort of like oh gosh |
[1114.58 --> 1121.48] thanks guys we we were looking for this where'd you find it um so how long has this project been in |
[1121.48 --> 1126.06] the making is it i mean i know 20 years the language the kind of story we've kind of painted here but |
[1126.06 --> 1131.78] you know how long has it been on your particular mind to sort of start lifting this up and actually |
[1131.78 --> 1137.18] making it happen even from your perspective or facebook's um i want to say that we made the |
[1137.18 --> 1142.32] decision that we were going to write a spec and publish one somewhere around last february um i think |
[1142.32 --> 1147.14] we actually started like properly working on it you know sorting out rex's contract things like that |
[1147.14 --> 1153.24] um i want to say we properly started working on it around march or possibly april i can't say for sure |
[1153.24 --> 1160.66] um so just this year not very long so it seems like specs are far more important when you have |
[1160.66 --> 1165.00] many implementations you know you look at something like javascript you know you have all these browser |
[1165.00 --> 1173.08] implementers um and they all need a spec to conform to was it is hhvm the second major php implementation |
[1173.08 --> 1180.10] um or are there is there a more diverse ecosystems i'm not aware of um it depends on what you mean by |
[1180.10 --> 1186.68] um i consider it the second major um but a lot of people who have worked on other implementations |
[1186.68 --> 1194.74] would certainly disagree with me um there's uh implementations like phalinger uh phc um what's |
[1194.74 --> 1200.12] the other one i'm thinking of hippie vm uh which was released very recently and uh has spent a lot of |
[1200.12 --> 1207.12] time comparing themselves to us so i'm not going to say they they picked their name as a as a bit of a |
[1207.12 --> 1213.80] gesture but maybe um so there's there's a number of php implementations out there i haven't seen |
[1213.80 --> 1218.52] a lot of chatter about many of them oh roads and i forgot to mention them they're another |
[1218.52 --> 1225.50] implementation but i'm pretty sure they're gone um so having having a spec is definitely important |
[1225.50 --> 1231.86] to bringing all of these different implementations together um but i think i think that's not the only |
[1231.86 --> 1238.04] benefit that we get out of it because um if you look actually at php itself um it goes through these |
[1238.04 --> 1244.34] you know version cycles four to five was a big jump um five to seven now is going to be a big jump by |
[1244.34 --> 1251.84] the way we're skipping six um why uh there's history behind six um i don't think you want me to get in |
[1251.84 --> 1257.34] there is that very much like fertile six yeah this is like you know certain hotels they they don't have |
[1257.34 --> 1262.22] a 13th floor you know you go from the 12th straight to the 14th but come on those people |
[1262.22 --> 1267.22] on the 14th know what floor they're really on that's right oh that's a that's a laugh that's a |
[1267.22 --> 1272.74] mitch head for joke but you laugh but in the discussion about what version to call it seven was actually |
[1272.74 --> 1279.48] highlighted as a lucky number oh is it yeah uh humans and our numbers uh no we were going to |
[1279.48 --> 1285.60] make unicode into the language for php6 um like four years ago or something like that and the project |
[1285.60 --> 1290.18] got really far along to the point that even books were published about it um those of us who worked |
[1290.18 --> 1296.28] on the unicode implementation felt sort of a you know a connection to that um and then the project |
[1296.28 --> 1303.24] kind of died because of a number of reasons and so there was never a six um so a discussion came up |
[1303.24 --> 1308.84] about what if it picks six or seven i don't want to belabor it bottom line we pick seven um |
[1308.84 --> 1313.98] gosh what was i talking about before we went off on a tangent spec and the next version kind of |
[1313.98 --> 1323.38] uh oh yes so yeah so the usefulness yes uh the usefulness of the spec is um partially to give |
[1323.38 --> 1328.26] the php project something to make sure that you know we don't break things accidentally along the |
[1328.26 --> 1333.58] way and we have broken things accidentally on a number of occasions um remind me to explain to you |
[1333.58 --> 1342.78] why zero x zero plus two equals four sometimes um it's also important for some of the uh revisions |
[1342.78 --> 1348.88] we're making to the language right now um there are two uh rfcs up on the php list one for unif some |
[1348.88 --> 1355.34] what's called uniform variable syntax um this is to make it sort of consistent when you say something |
[1355.34 --> 1362.60] like uh dollar a square brackets some subscript uh parentheses some function call arrow some method |
[1362.60 --> 1367.30] call whatever you happen to do piling these things together what's the right evaluation order |
[1367.30 --> 1372.98] left to right right to left um middle outwards which is actually um sort of like what it currently |
[1372.98 --> 1379.94] does and makes no sense um unifying that and making it make sense um another guy nikita popov um who's |
[1379.94 --> 1386.90] been really um uh a big contributor in the php circles in the past few years um he's working on an abstract |
[1386.90 --> 1394.10] abstract syntax tree for php which is also another huge thing um php's compiler doesn't have an ast it |
[1394.10 --> 1399.98] says here here are my parse uh uh expressions coming through let's just compile those straight |
[1399.98 --> 1406.02] to byte code and don't look at the overall program at all um so he's introducing an ast which is |
[1406.02 --> 1411.92] obviously a big opportunity to screw up the language um having again a conformance suite and a spec |
[1411.92 --> 1413.76] helps to make sure that that doesn't happen |
[1413.76 --> 1420.12] all right let's pause the show for just a minute give a shout out to our sponsor code ship |
[1420.12 --> 1425.48] code ship is a hosted continuous deployment service that just works we've been working with |
[1425.48 --> 1430.44] code ship for quite a while now we really really enjoy not only the product they built but the |
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[1459.84 --> 1464.14] it really is just so quick get started today with their free plan and make sure you use the code |
[1464.14 --> 1470.20] the changelog podcast that's really important use the changelog podcast and when you do that you can |
[1470.20 --> 1477.08] get 20 off for three months on any plan you choose head to code ship.io and tell them the |
[1477.08 --> 1484.98] changelog sent you well let's let's talk about this you know this uh backlash that didn't happen |
[1484.98 --> 1489.62] you know that what you maybe perhaps feared is that the community would say okay this is facebook |
[1489.62 --> 1495.06] trying to you know grab a stranglehold around php the language by introducing the spec |
[1495.06 --> 1500.16] can you and i don't necessarily believe that but could you still speak to those fears perhaps |
[1500.16 --> 1505.04] um maybe from facebook's perspective and then maybe you know you you like you said we have all |
[1505.04 --> 1508.68] these different we's you know you represent facebook a little bit and then you also represent |
[1508.68 --> 1515.06] just the php community and how you balance those two as well would be interesting um well yeah i |
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