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[2907.34 --> 2914.26] today wow so do you have any radical ideas are you just kind of broaching the topic at this point |
[2914.26 --> 2919.74] saying this is something that we need to talk about um i i have some but they're probably too early to |
[2919.74 --> 2925.98] speak with with any confidence i think that the um the overarching |
[2925.98 --> 2934.14] message is going to be that that both parties need to meet in the middle right users need to have a |
[2934.14 --> 2938.50] deeper understanding of what they're using you need to like default to open up source and look at how the |
[2938.50 --> 2943.80] source works and contribute back a little bit um because only if you're having the deeper understanding of |
[2943.80 --> 2947.76] what you're on top of could you ever hope to contribute there's like this demystification |
[2947.76 --> 2951.78] that occurs when you actually look at the source of the thing you're like oh wow that guy was a |
[2951.78 --> 2959.16] human huh i thought it was magic um yeah there was a real moment in my you know technical career |
[2959.16 --> 2965.48] as software developer where i went from being like too afraid to do that to like be that becoming my |
[2965.48 --> 2969.40] the first thing i do almost immediately sometimes to a fault where i'm like i'm gonna blame this |
[2969.40 --> 2977.10] dependency when really just my code is got a bug in it but but like i agree with you absolutely like |
[2977.10 --> 2983.44] you as users of open source like we should be hopping into that and being able to diagnose or try |
[2983.44 --> 2990.08] right it's difficult for beginners to do those kind of things but um you know the earlier and sooner you |
[2990.08 --> 2996.14] do it and dive into the mucky muck so to speak the sooner you realize like it's not magic in here this |
[2996.14 --> 3001.52] this black box has parts that make sense and some don't work and some do and and you grow as a |
[3001.52 --> 3006.34] developer as part of participating in that process i think that's changing though i think for beginners |
[3006.34 --> 3013.18] that's that's changing because of the source being so pointed to and pull requests being so social now |
[3013.18 --> 3017.44] i think that's that's beginning to evolve i think people are becoming more and more aware that |
[3017.44 --> 3022.80] their first resource should be not just asking your buddy hey how does this work or ask the maintainer |
[3022.80 --> 3026.50] hey where's the api for this or the docs for this or whatever it's like digging into the actual code |
[3026.50 --> 3032.64] themselves it's becoming i think that that thought jared is kind of evolving a bit i agree that it's |
[3032.64 --> 3038.78] evolving a bit and i think that github and pull requests um have helped but one of the things that's |
[3038.78 --> 3043.24] actually i think kind of unfortunate is that our tools have taken several steps back like i talked |
[3043.24 --> 3049.70] about just focus on ruby and javascript today say like ruby's debuggers aren't fantastic um ruby offers a |
[3049.70 --> 3054.36] lot of introspection capabilities of like what's going on in the runtime but not a ton of introspection |
[3054.36 --> 3060.16] about like where's this source and what is it and how do i open it um a node is about a bajillion |
[3060.16 --> 3065.94] times worse than this uh because uh debugging you know what's going on under the covers is notoriously |
[3065.94 --> 3070.34] difficult uh to the point that you know the operational standard in node is like oh well yeah |
[3070.34 --> 3075.10] every single node process leaks memory like a sieve so just make sure that operationally you can bounce |
[3075.10 --> 3081.06] those servers whenever you need to um and and it really starts to feel after a while like a black |
[3081.06 --> 3087.44] box like what's going on under here so i guess i mean one one approach would be invest the time in |
[3087.44 --> 3094.10] tools that make that lower that that barrier of entry to to hop over into the source code or even |
[3094.10 --> 3099.16] just like exclaim and visualize it and put it in your face even when you don't ask it to so that like |
[3099.16 --> 3103.42] you know sort of like code folding right in browser in editors what if you could just like every time |
[3103.42 --> 3108.44] you called a third party api you could unfold that code and see the source of that method like in |
[3108.44 --> 3114.82] every editor that sort of stuff would just dramatically i think uh increase the level of |
[3114.82 --> 3122.52] engagement from users yeah absolutely you think perhaps languages um like go and and russ have |
[3122.52 --> 3128.16] easier time developing those kind of tools we would have in our communities just because of the nature of |
[3128.16 --> 3133.40] the languages um it seems like this this thought kind of came into focus you said when uh you |
[3133.40 --> 3139.46] took over rspec given recently after jim after jim wyrick's death i know you are a huge fan of jim |
[3139.46 --> 3145.12] wyrick um can you speak to that kind of the process of taking over and just uh anything you like to |
[3145.12 --> 3153.46] about jim yeah um so i've taken uh over the project with uh another wonderful fella named doug elcorn he's |
[3153.46 --> 3161.62] at gaslight software in cincinnati um and i've only we've taken it over in name only uh we we haven't yet |
[3161.62 --> 3165.10] actually started digging into the code and starting to work through the backlog of issues |
[3165.10 --> 3170.92] um but it's funny because we started this process like five months ago and we only like got ruby |
[3170.92 --> 3175.90] gems access a few weeks ago and we're only able to announce it like last week and a big reason for that |
[3175.90 --> 3182.98] was uh a combination of of situational problems that are very common um i believe that like uh jim |
[3182.98 --> 3188.50] didn't specify this kind of stuff in a will right like like who's the executor of my open source |
[3188.50 --> 3195.32] cachet like who runs rake now right uh and as the world ages as like all this open source is around |
[3195.32 --> 3199.46] longer we're going to have to deal with this like literally like you need a living will for your open |
[3199.46 --> 3205.06] source you need to specify whose copyright it is if you die and who can maintain it because |
[3205.06 --> 3209.68] places like github that we have since learned will require stuff like that legally before they can just |
[3209.68 --> 3217.32] hand you a repository uh it's not enough that the guy passed away um uh a lot of other services are |
[3217.32 --> 3222.50] are you know very accommodating but uh you know maybe have a like less rigor about that kind of |
[3222.50 --> 3226.62] thing but then at the same time they're also operating on shoestring budgets and they just can't |
[3226.62 --> 3232.04] handle the the the volume of customer help requests that they have so like ruby gem specifically they |
[3232.04 --> 3236.82] don't have the funding to to spend a ton of time on support and so it took quite a while to get |
[3236.82 --> 3243.16] uh feedback from nick and evan about about how to move forward uh so so situationally that was |
[3243.16 --> 3248.58] that was painful um i think i think just structurally |
[3248.58 --> 3256.78] what i worry about is that we we just aren't geared for for |
[3256.78 --> 3263.18] sharing dependencies with other people sharing control with other people i guess the other half |
[3263.18 --> 3267.56] of the talk to get to give you sort of like we talked about the user responsibility the other |
[3267.56 --> 3271.88] half of the talk is like maintainers generally built their stuff to solve their own problem |
[3271.88 --> 3278.74] and when somebody else wants to help they're they're they're solving a slightly different |
[3278.74 --> 3284.16] problem they're solving a variation on the problem that the color is colored by their perspective |
[3284.16 --> 3289.24] and as a maintainer i don't want to cede control to that guy because he's going to like you know |
[3289.24 --> 3293.40] if he's really active he's going to kind of pull the project away from my center of gravity towards |
[3293.40 --> 3297.72] where he wants maybe it's how he codes things or maybe it's what it does and how it does what it |
[3297.72 --> 3301.70] does and so i think a lot of uh open source maintainers even though they're great people |
[3301.70 --> 3307.38] tend to be kind of control freaks because they've been burned you know however many times with pull |
[3307.38 --> 3312.72] requests that introduce bugs and then they have to maintain and so forth um but but i keep seeing all |
[3312.72 --> 3318.28] these projects that have literally one contributor on them uh and my goal is to try to discourage that |
[3318.28 --> 3323.32] in my own work uh and and try to pull in additional contributors and try to more actively solicit people |
[3323.32 --> 3328.54] for help not just because i'm i don't want to spend the time working on it constantly that would be |
[3328.54 --> 3334.66] great but because uh it is more stable the more people have access and control to things and have |
[3334.66 --> 3341.42] had eyes on it you know i've never read read rspec given 2.0's uh source code i was familiar with 1.0 |
[3341.42 --> 3347.36] but 2.0 was a rewrite so i'm gonna have to go in basically with no help uh and totally figure it out |
[3347.36 --> 3352.22] soup to nuts and if i'd spent just a little bit of time pairing with jim and he had an open offer |
[3352.22 --> 3358.78] on the table for me to pair with him on it uh uh which i obviously regret not taking him up on |
[3358.78 --> 3365.38] uh now i'm totally on my own um to say nothing of how important you know his documentation is going |
[3365.38 --> 3371.16] to be to me which is another area a lot of open source fall short um so that project in particular i |
[3371.16 --> 3375.90] love it because it's just uh jim gave several talks on rspec given if you have any familiarity with |
[3375.90 --> 3385.06] rspec or with bdd style unit testing uh i think that given is a really really thematically honest |
[3385.06 --> 3392.28] conceptually pure way to write unit tests um and it has a lot of benefits that are just not obvious |
[3392.28 --> 3396.80] at first blush at first blush it looks like oh these are just aliases to give in and before each |
[3396.80 --> 3401.74] and so forth like that it's just more dsl kind of you know machinations but when you really dive in |
[3401.74 --> 3407.34] and you realize like the how the structure of the tests becomes much more clear and the uh the |
[3407.34 --> 3413.54] additional tools that it gives you with using less fewer keywords uh it's a fantastic tool and and i've |
[3413.54 --> 3417.90] got a port called jasmine given that does the same thing for jasmine which is why i've got the interest in |
[3417.90 --> 3425.54] maintaining both going forward um but anyway yeah i love the tool and and uh you know speaking on jim |
[3425.54 --> 3433.42] a little bit more broadly uh my goal is to be more like him in how i carry myself in the community |
[3433.42 --> 3437.98] and i i feel like a lot of people have said that after he passed away jeff casimir tweeted right after |
[3437.98 --> 3444.24] jim passed that um no matter who you were uh or or or what your idea was or what you had to say or |
[3444.24 --> 3451.76] whether jim had had had learned that thing that you learned a hundred years ago he treated you like |
[3451.76 --> 3458.98] you were fascinating and he uh uh got excited for your excitement and he just had so much joy in his |
[3458.98 --> 3464.48] heart that he couldn't wait to share with whoever was around him and he was so welcoming um that even |
[3464.48 --> 3469.80] when you know he was a well-rounded guy i mean he got mad at stuff i think one time he said that you |
[3469.80 --> 3477.86] you've never really understood a dependency until you've come to hate it um he he he could be biting |
[3477.86 --> 3485.12] like i i this is several years old now but like when he gave me criticism about about uh code that |
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