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[1790.12 --> 1793.82] that are architected well enough that we can solve a lot more of our own problems without |
[1793.82 --> 1799.88] immediately leaning on a bajillion you know shitty javascript plugins everywhere um and |
[1799.88 --> 1805.26] also from the from the from the app code perspective where you know there's a lot of people who are |
[1805.26 --> 1812.34] using packaging tools to kind of organize and require uh explicitly their own code uh uh you know |
[1812.34 --> 1816.52] like say like i've got a model that my view wants to use i require that model from that view |
[1816.52 --> 1820.92] there's nothing wrong with that it's just it's not built into javascript it's not you know part of the |
[1820.92 --> 1824.90] language it's not something the browsers understand yet and so you're kind of marrying yourself to this |
[1824.90 --> 1830.74] one-off implementation that will probably look silly two three four years from now um when you |
[1830.74 --> 1834.82] could just solve it the way that you know by respecting what a javascript web application really |
[1834.82 --> 1841.20] is which is the you know it is equivalent to the concatenation of all of its listings so just know |
[1841.20 --> 1846.76] how to concatenate it right and then you're done and better yet write code that is order agnostic |
[1846.76 --> 1850.96] and design systems that don't matter what order you load stuff in so then you don't have to even |
[1850.96 --> 1855.86] worry about what order it gets concatenated in um those are the ways that we've tried to solve those |
[1855.86 --> 1862.34] problems now people like to use bauer we have a lineman bauer uh extension um that that you can use |
[1862.34 --> 1868.26] with lineman but i personally have been frustrated by it for for a lot of reasons one is that it it |
[1868.26 --> 1874.70] by default will go and grab master of your github repo and that's not a release right it's got a |
[1874.70 --> 1879.92] version probably in a file somewhere uh but it's it's going to be divergent from the release which |
[1879.92 --> 1883.36] has caused a bunch of my friends who maintain libraries to freak out because now they're |
[1883.36 --> 1887.14] getting all these issues filed against stuff that's happening in master when people are just |
[1887.14 --> 1895.00] grabbing the wrong artifact uh it encourages organ uh like open source maintainers to start committing |
[1895.00 --> 1898.88] generated artifacts and then track that separately so then the source of truth of like it is just |
[1898.88 --> 1905.50] counter diversion control in my opinion um and then the worst part kind of belies your first statement |
[1905.50 --> 1909.30] which is well it's not a dependency management tool it's a downloader like the fact that it |
[1909.30 --> 1913.26] seems like a dependency management tool gives everyone a false sense of confidence that it's doing |
[1913.26 --> 1919.88] things like you know negotiating uh version conflicts and transitive dependencies uh uh you know that |
[1919.88 --> 1925.56] that every single time you download a specific version of a dependency you're getting exactly the |
[1925.56 --> 1931.44] same one like you would be from npm or from ruby gems you're not and so those people using bower are |
[1931.44 --> 1935.58] like well don't commit your your vendor dependencies because you have a bower like part of your build |
[1935.58 --> 1940.22] will just pull those in and then you'll do a build and then they'll just be kind of transient um |
[1940.22 --> 1945.78] it's it seems totally backwards to me that yeoman on one hand will generate all of this cruft that is |
[1945.78 --> 1951.18] literally your application forever uh that you don't need and that you can't upgrade uh uh and then |
[1951.18 --> 1956.34] on the other hand not commit the actual stuff that's like literally your runtime the system |
[1956.34 --> 1961.80] that you're building uh that that isn't controlled by you shouldn't be controlled by you so i feel like |
[1961.80 --> 1967.30] it's just coming at a lot of these issues from diametrically opposed perspectives yeah |
[1967.30 --> 1973.88] yeah and so what do you do then you just like w get the file into a vendor and then you just |
[1973.88 --> 1981.08] i mean just old school style old school man yeah it it you know if it if it doesn't hurt if it's |
[1981.08 --> 1985.50] not broke don't fix it i i just have not run into the problems of scale that some other people i've |
[1985.50 --> 1989.66] talked to had like you know basically anytime i get into a fisty cuffs internet fight with somebody |
[1989.66 --> 1994.72] about this they eventually pull out like well my app is eight megabytes of compressed javascript so i |
[1994.72 --> 1999.94] have these problems i'm like okay cool but don't turn around and like offer this as generic advice of |
[1999.94 --> 2005.88] like best practices that everyone should be doing because whether that was a necessary eight megabytes of |
[2005.88 --> 2011.32] complexity which i doubt um or or not it's just not representative of most web applications it's a |
[2011.32 --> 2015.66] problem you can push off till later and every time i see people try to adopt it on day one whether it's |
[2015.66 --> 2022.88] browserify require um or even bauer it just introduces all of these stupid engineering problems that are a |
[2022.88 --> 2027.92] distraction from the goal of building an application and lineman's all about getting up and running and |
[2027.92 --> 2031.20] building an application quickly and not having to worry about those stupid engineering problems |
[2031.20 --> 2038.40] like like build get focusing on your build and so forth um and uh it seems to just not respect the |
[2038.40 --> 2045.56] cost of that right on so lineman you know lineman js interestingly the name is lineman js but if you go |
[2045.56 --> 2054.60] to github and you click on the language statistics uh 59 coffee script 40 javascript but i can't actually |
[2054.60 --> 2060.84] find where that javascript is coming from it seems like it's all coffee script i think it's probably uh |
[2060.84 --> 2066.32] in the archetype uh which is the project that gets generated when you line the new there's javascript |
[2066.32 --> 2070.42] in that i thought maybe there was some sort of thing that was automatically built that had the js in |
[2070.42 --> 2078.08] it or something no and in fact uh you know i understand why um there's a first of all there's |
[2078.08 --> 2083.54] the natural reticence to coffee script in the in the broader outside of ruby community yeah because it's |
[2083.54 --> 2090.92] different uh and it's non-standard and it is uh you know it looks foreign if you've not used a dynamic |
[2090.92 --> 2094.52] language before and it looks for foreign to some ruby who've never used a white space sensitive |
[2094.52 --> 2100.28] language before um personally i'm sold because i you know there's myriad benefits that we could talk |
[2100.28 --> 2105.98] about separately but um the things that are important to me is i want to write code that's as |
[2105.98 --> 2110.26] clear and as reliable and understandable and maintainable as i possibly can because maintaining |
[2110.26 --> 2115.96] open source is hard but i want to be handing people code that they can run with and and easily |
[2115.96 --> 2121.92] understand uh and make sense of and so when you install a lineman and then run a um you know lineman |
[2121.92 --> 2126.62] new and make a project everything is all javascript no coffee script gets generated unless you use the |
[2126.62 --> 2134.54] tac tac coffee um uh option to to convert all of that to coffee script for you um and so i feel like |
[2134.54 --> 2139.36] it's a kind of a straw man argument you're not the first person to bring it up some people have |
[2139.36 --> 2142.32] literally been like i won't use this because it was written in coffee script and that just seems to |
[2142.32 --> 2147.38] me like it's a coming from a point of entitlement right like i refuse to spend the 30 minutes it |
[2147.38 --> 2151.74] takes to learn coffee script because it's really a very very tiny language when you think about it |
[2151.74 --> 2156.56] and therefore your thing sucks and we should all not contribute to it and we shouldn't use it |
[2156.56 --> 2161.64] right plus as you say this is a tool that you use and as an end user it's complete it's a nothing |
[2161.64 --> 2165.76] to you whether what it was written in right it's generating javascript for you it's a command line tool |
[2165.76 --> 2173.72] um it shouldn't matter that being said like as you said some people uh you know they're very |
[2173.72 --> 2178.08] averse to coffee script have you gotten a lot of that kind of feedback with lineman maybe even on the |
[2178.08 --> 2184.10] contribution side how the the contributors worked uh contributors have been fantastic i mean i always |
[2184.10 --> 2191.02] want more of them uh i guess i'll break that up into two questions first on contributors i feel like |
[2191.02 --> 2194.84] because we've been using this every day for two years on almost all of our client projects |
[2194.84 --> 2201.22] uh lineman solves the problems i needed to solve and it is mature from my perspective i mean we never |
[2201.22 --> 2205.62] did a 1.0 release but it does almost everything i need pretty well and there's things i want to fix |
[2205.62 --> 2211.64] like there's rough corners but i can live with them pretty well um and so when people open issues uh or |
[2211.64 --> 2217.36] have problems i would really love if they would more often contribute uh to the project because it's |
[2217.36 --> 2222.24] their their itch is not my itch and so i could half-heartedly go and try to build it for them |
[2222.24 --> 2228.04] um but but really there's uh just sort of a depression that sinks in when you realize that |
[2228.04 --> 2231.70] you're spending a lot of time just trying to make other people happy on the internet for free |
[2231.70 --> 2237.96] uh just like arguing on the internet and uh uh it bums me out when people kind of like open an issue |
[2237.96 --> 2243.66] from from from a from a state of entitlement uh like hey your thing's dumb because it doesn't do this |
[2243.66 --> 2248.18] and then i i get the thing in my inbox and realize i'm blocking somebody and i feel really guilty and i feel |
[2248.18 --> 2253.14] beholden to them to like you know go implement that thing uh when you know 90 percent of people |
[2253.14 --> 2258.70] never even offer or think to open a pull request um that's just that that bums me out and now i've |
[2258.70 --> 2262.30] forgotten the first half of the question that i also was excited oh just if you have a lot of |
[2262.30 --> 2267.94] so-called haters because of the copy script i think there's an interesting point to this too which is that |
[2267.94 --> 2275.56] uh coming from the ruby community where like i think that like i see the same 100 150 people at all of |
[2275.56 --> 2281.12] these ruby conferences across literally the world it's a much much smaller tighter knit uh community |
[2281.12 --> 2286.72] and as a result we kind of all like you know there's a monoculture aspect to that you know |
[2286.72 --> 2292.20] high mind yeah yeah we have debates and arguments but then things settle down and we either separate |
[2292.20 --> 2299.72] into camps or we just sort of adopt the new the new way you can't do that with javascript because |
[2299.72 --> 2303.86] everybody is stuck with javascript the whole world is writing javascript and they're all from these |
[2303.86 --> 2307.24] different tribes and these different heritages and different back-end environments and so |
[2307.24 --> 2312.50] a lot of times i'll see people whether it's from ruby or python or dotnet or java they will enter |
[2312.50 --> 2317.96] the javascript world with nothing but the perspective of their back-end experience and then they'll |
[2317.96 --> 2324.12] immediately freak out because they can't see any agreement like what's the right way to do x right |
[2324.12 --> 2329.46] what's what's the standard way to do y and the answer is like of course there is no right way |
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