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[3431.82 --> 3436.96] the core team itself just does all their work on master right so this we it used to be that this |
[3436.96 --> 3441.60] sort of trade-off between how stable unstable you need to be was the decision that you have to finally |
[3441.60 --> 3446.42] tune you have to finally hone as a core team to figure out what exactly you want to do and the real |
[3446.42 --> 3452.96] genius of the chrome uh model which is what started this all is that it lets people self-select into a |
[3452.96 --> 3457.30] stability set that they want if someone uses nightly they can't complain if things broke that's what |
[3457.30 --> 3462.34] they signed up for right but if someone uses stable you know that they really care about stability um |
[3462.34 --> 3466.72] and that's something that as a person working who's worked on a lot of open source like being able to |
[3466.72 --> 3471.22] know that people have signed up for the thing that they're getting is pretty mind-blowing it's pretty |
[3471.22 --> 3477.84] awesome you put on uh on that note on the six week release cycle i think it's been only a couple weeks |
[3477.84 --> 3482.86] about three weeks it seems maybe two weeks since you tweeted about it and then to your discourse for ember |
[3482.86 --> 3489.52] uh a question was posed is the six week six weeks release cycle too frequent what's been some of the |
[3489.52 --> 3494.36] feedback from the community and i guess some of the core contributors to ember and how it i guess it |
[3494.36 --> 3500.00] might play here to rust and then as steve said every project he'll ever do yeah so it's actually really |
[3500.00 --> 3504.26] interesting because the thing that's kind of funny about the six week release cycle so six weeks is not |
[3504.26 --> 3509.84] very long um yeah the idea behind six week the six week release cycle is that unless you've done |
[3509.84 --> 3515.42] something catastrophically wrong uh people can just keep upgrading every release so every you know |
[3515.42 --> 3521.12] every six weeks people can spend a few hours at most an upgrade i say a few hours because in javascript |
[3521.12 --> 3526.82] the dynamism means that people accidentally rely on private apis all the time but in general that's |
[3526.82 --> 3532.56] like a short quick update people can just like schedule as part of their sprint and be happy and that's |
[3532.56 --> 3535.90] that's something that has actually worked out pretty well for ember i would say even on that thread |
[3535.90 --> 3541.90] most people said it's awesome i basically just upgrade and it's fine yeah um the thing that's |
[3541.90 --> 3547.18] kind of unfortunate about it is that that does mean that if you're a person who can't upgrade every |
[3547.18 --> 3551.94] release there isn't really any good guidance for you about what else might be a good process right so |
[3551.94 --> 3556.30] if you don't if you can't schedule every six weeks to do an upgrade or if you have very very extreme |
[3556.30 --> 3561.10] stability requirements or if you're using unstable features you know you're doing private stuff or you're |
[3561.10 --> 3565.74] building an add-on that does private stuff right it may not be so obvious to you what the right story is so |
[3565.74 --> 3570.02] i think probably what we're going to do and this is something we just talked about in the core team |
[3570.02 --> 3575.28] meeting today um i think probably what we're going to do is we're going to create a release every four |
[3575.28 --> 3581.26] releases or so so that'll be like twice a year and that release is a release that we say is going to |
[3581.26 --> 3585.30] be stable now it's a little funny because all of our releases are stable we follow semver right so |
[3585.30 --> 3591.02] all our releases are stable so really all we're saying is if you're like this is a good release for you to |
[3591.02 --> 3595.66] stick on we'll maintain backwards compatibility i will we'll continue to do security patches to |
[3595.66 --> 3601.44] that release uh for a while and um perhaps the most interesting one and this may or may not end |
[3601.44 --> 3606.98] up being important in rust is we have a policy in ember that any private api that's heavily used if |
[3606.98 --> 3611.18] it turns out that we have to change it we don't just change it off the bat we do a two-step deprecation |
[3611.18 --> 3615.58] right so we do a deprecation in one release and then the next release we'll remove it just so that |
[3615.58 --> 3619.50] people know that we're going to do that and so maybe one thing that we'll do with the with this |
[3619.50 --> 3625.02] uh more long-term release processes will say we won't remove something until the deprecation has |
[3625.02 --> 3629.62] crossed over one of these kind of cycles but sort of the funny thing is and this is like the |
[3629.62 --> 3634.18] conversation we had the core team meeting today was everyone was like i don't really see how this is |
[3634.18 --> 3637.80] significantly different from what we're doing right now and my point to them was it's not |
[3637.80 --> 3642.72] significantly different it's just a way of telling people it's a way of being clear to people that what |
[3642.72 --> 3646.74] we're doing right now enables this style of really of updating whatever you want people are so used to the |
[3646.74 --> 3651.72] idea that an upgrade is who knows how long it's who knows how complicated who knows how messy |
[3651.72 --> 3656.20] that yeah the idea of upgrading every six weeks seems crazy so all we're really going to probably |
[3656.20 --> 3660.46] be saying with this process is you know we'll give you a rolled up change log which is pretty easy |
[3660.46 --> 3666.64] and we we it is actually safe to do this which was all it was already true but we weren't saying it |
[3666.64 --> 3674.18] right it's probably in the the existing processes to make them more foundational and explanatory to the |
[3674.18 --> 3679.32] community trying to prop themselves up around ember and then how's it as this same six-week |
[3679.32 --> 3685.32] release cycle plays into rust and and any other uh project that sort of picks this up i can see that |
[3685.32 --> 3690.00] definitely how that's you know just formalizing what's already in place what's pretty awesome about |
[3690.00 --> 3696.54] rust i think rust may have less trouble because rust is has such strong typing i suspect that some |
[3696.54 --> 3700.52] of the kinds of issues that we've seen with ember where people end up using private apis and we end up |
[3700.52 --> 3706.16] getting stuck i suspect those will happen less where just because if you break something things |
[3706.16 --> 3710.30] don't compile so you find out very fast like the canary build will it won't be like people will |
[3710.30 --> 3715.38] live along it will fail to compile and then it's not easy to go in you know poke in at the internals |
[3715.38 --> 3721.04] of something somebody doesn't want you to poke in at so i my hypothesis is that the kinds of |
[3721.04 --> 3726.30] deprecations that we have to do in ember of private features will be fewer and more far between in rust |
[3726.30 --> 3731.54] than they were in ember well if uh if you're listening now stay excited because we're going |
[3731.54 --> 3737.06] to take a quick break uh we're going to rewind a little bit and kind of go maybe to noob level |
[3737.06 --> 3741.50] talking about getting started those are just picking up rust and then we're going to hypothesize a little |
[3741.50 --> 3746.74] bit about the future steve's got something particularly he wants to talk about um let's take a quick break |
[3746.74 --> 3753.08] to listen to a sponsor we'll come right back today's show is sponsored by app quality bundle if you haven't |
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[3830.30 --> 3834.76] dot software that's right build better dot software now back to the show |
[3834.76 --> 3841.96] all right we're back uh getting started um i've got some ideas on where people might get started |
[3841.96 --> 3846.24] because you know i can google right but steve where should we pick this up at you got pretty |
[3846.24 --> 3851.22] neat idea on maybe where this could be where this can begin yeah so this is sort of a segue from the |
[3851.22 --> 3855.72] last uh chunk that we were talking about and then i will give you an exactly but uh one of the things |
[3855.72 --> 3860.36] that rust is doing and that i think you and i are both trying to do with rust is to bring a lot of the |
[3860.36 --> 3865.28] concepts that web programmers are used to doing into this space systems programming that no one |
[3865.28 --> 3870.50] has done before and you gave this talk at gogaruko which i really thought was really fantastic and has |
[3870.50 --> 3874.24] something that matters for this getting started aspect so i know a lot of the people listed the |
[3874.24 --> 3878.64] changelog and a lot of people that like follow me on twitter are dynamic language programmers that have |
[3878.64 --> 3882.88] never done compiled statically typed languages before they've never done low-level programming before |
[3882.88 --> 3888.56] and so there's this really interesting comparison between what node did and what i hope rust does for |
[3888.56 --> 3893.76] systems so one of the things that node enabled was an entire generation of programmers who had only |
[3893.76 --> 3898.82] ever been front-end devs quote-unquote they'd only done a little bit of jquery and it enabled them to |
[3898.82 --> 3904.58] write back-end code and that was like a new superpower for them like this whole group of people now have |
[3904.58 --> 3908.54] this ability to do this brand new thing in computing and we've seen a ton of really fantastic things |
[3908.54 --> 3914.14] sort of fall out of that with these new people getting excited and so what i'm hoping is that if you've |
[3914.14 --> 3919.90] never done systems programming before that rust will be able to help ease you into doing this kind |
[3919.90 --> 3924.44] of low-level programming and so i don't have all these resources in place yet but one of the things |
[3924.44 --> 3928.02] that's going to be important for the future of rust and that i hope to get done in the next six weeks |
[3928.02 --> 3933.82] is to actually have documentation specifically around uh you've never been a systems programmer |
[3933.82 --> 3939.56] before let's teach you systems programming as well as rust and then you know not just oh you already |
[3939.56 --> 3944.24] are a super hardcore c plus plus hacker here's what you need to know about how rust works and so i think |
[3944.24 --> 3948.34] that's a really important thing one thing that you can bet will happen is the exact same thing that |
[3948.34 --> 3952.40] happened with node which is that there's all these people out there who are already systems programmers |
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