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[3952.40 --> 3955.90] just like there were all these people who are already back-end programmers and they didn't get the
[3955.90 --> 3960.98] enabling power of node and so people you'll hear people say i don't understand why rust is so important
[3960.98 --> 3964.86] i could do all this stuff with c plus plus like look at my c plus plus code i'm already doing all the
[3964.86 --> 3969.04] things rust already does and those people will be missing the point they'll be missing the point that rust
[3969.04 --> 3973.58] is enabling people who previously couldn't write c plus plus write c plus plus it's not i mean it will
[3973.58 --> 3980.40] help people who uh who don't want to as you did before right and it will help people who unlike node i
[3980.40 --> 3986.88] think it actually is genuinely uh an improvement for c plus plus writers pretty much strictly a strict
[3986.88 --> 3991.54] improvement but i but i think people will miss the point you will you can expect that people will miss
[3991.54 --> 3995.48] the point because this is the story of enabling technologies anytime there's a technology that enables a
[3995.48 --> 3998.88] group of people who weren't good at something to do something other people are already
[3998.88 --> 4002.34] doing the people who are already doing it say i don't see the point of this this seems pointless
[4002.34 --> 4007.02] and something like do you really want all these people coming in and for me the answer is always yes
[4007.02 --> 4012.10] i always want all these people who felt intimidated by technology to go in and actually have the power
[4012.10 --> 4016.94] to do the right thing or have the power to do things with it and that's something that i've already
[4016.94 --> 4022.32] seen happen for myself with rust and i expect to see it with a bigger group so on that on that angle
[4022.32 --> 4027.44] the getting started thing so the what's uh the best place to get started and of course i have slight
[4027.44 --> 4032.58] amount of bias in this is uh we actually have a large amount of documentation on the rust website
[4032.58 --> 4038.28] uh that i call the book or the rust programming language and so this is what my baby uh it's what
[4038.28 --> 4042.70] i work on the most of the time so you wrote this this is yours i mean other people it helps
[4042.70 --> 4046.28] okay i have done the vast majority of the work i was trying to figure it out because that was
[4046.28 --> 4050.78] one of the first on my list of getting started like i found this and i found a few other things but
[4050.78 --> 4055.66] i was very impressed by the organization uh and also the writing behind the cell thank you
[4055.66 --> 4060.16] uh so one of the things that uh is it's still you know maybe by the time the show gets actually
[4060.16 --> 4064.50] published i have a little bit of these things in place but uh i want you to be able to start reading
[4064.50 --> 4068.70] this and they'll give you a little project that you'll build together um so right now it sort of
[4068.70 --> 4073.34] takes a syntactical approach of like explaining the syntax of rust and it'll get you started with those
[4073.34 --> 4078.34] basics um but due to some shenanigans um i pulled the project that used to be there and i have a better
[4078.34 --> 4083.10] one um that's going to be a tutorial that's coming out and so that will uh hopefully be a nice way to
[4083.10 --> 4087.66] get started if you don't know what you want to write in rust um so yeah the book is the most up-to-date
[4087.66 --> 4091.84] and comprehensive documentation that we have part of the reason why it's up-to-date is that the
[4091.84 --> 4098.16] documentation tools we have actually run the code in the documentation as a test so if something in the
[4098.16 --> 4104.20] compiler changes uh it will actually break the documentation um and so it's been kept up to date
[4104.20 --> 4110.52] sheerly because commits don't pass unless it is also up-to-date uh so um there's of course one or
[4110.52 --> 4115.28] two areas where that's not true etc hand wave yada yada but it's generally speaking the most correct
[4115.28 --> 4120.44] and up-to-date documentation there's also another project that we uh have it's rust by example.com
[4120.44 --> 4124.94] this is originally written by a community member and then it was sort of donated to the rust core team
[4124.94 --> 4129.86] when he decided he didn't want to work on it anymore and it's more of a like small snippets of code
[4129.86 --> 4135.68] like a tapas kind of like approach um and i frankly need to give it a little more love but
[4135.68 --> 4139.68] it's still pretty good and i make sure every night i have a build that tests against nightly
[4139.68 --> 4143.98] and i make sure that it's been up to date so those two resources are the big primary ones
[4143.98 --> 4149.12] and the ones that are most accurate unfortunately when you're trying to go towards a release there's
[4149.12 --> 4152.96] always those last minute changes you're sort of sneaking in the last two weeks i've seen a bunch
[4152.96 --> 4157.80] of breaking changes that means that and also over the alpha period there were a bunch of changes that
[4157.80 --> 4162.56] have made a lot of the other documentation that exists on the web kind of obsolete you'll need a
[4162.56 --> 4167.38] little bit of hand holding going with those um but another great resource for learners is the irc
[4167.38 --> 4174.02] channel that we have in uh hashtag rust pound rust i guess in the in the old old terms oh man wow i just
[4174.02 --> 4181.56] betrayed myself by saying hashtag um using too much twitter but the point is is that uh the the rust chat
[4181.56 --> 4187.48] room is a wonderful welcoming friendly place for people to ask even the most basic questions about rust
[4187.48 --> 4193.76] um if people are jerks i will kick them um basically we're encouraging people like i i want
[4193.76 --> 4197.70] people to feel comfortable absolutely asking any question whatsoever and we have a ton of really
[4197.70 --> 4202.66] great people that are around that will help um if you get stuck so if you do use a bit of
[4202.66 --> 4207.60] documentation or like a blog post that's a little out of date oftentimes jumping an irc someone can tell
[4207.60 --> 4211.84] you oh yeah you just need to tweak the name of that function or like oh this changed that type or
[4211.84 --> 4217.88] something like that and so those um that's also a really fantastic resource for like up-to-date uh
[4217.88 --> 4222.78] things hopefully now that beta is released we'll start having more broad community initiatives that are
[4222.78 --> 4228.02] actually uh you know accurate um but a lot of people understandably have been sort of holding off on
[4228.02 --> 4234.90] their projects until this stable thing actually happens so aside from aside from rc uh do you have a
[4234.90 --> 4239.92] discourse under that uh something else that surface was the subreddit on uh for us it seemed like
[4239.92 --> 4243.32] there was at least a place where there's a lot of interaction and maybe even where new announcements
[4243.32 --> 4248.02] are happening the for example the betas mentioned there which was submitted by you steve yeah yeah
[4248.02 --> 4254.52] so uh we have two official forums uh they're both discourse instances uh one is at users.rustlang.org
[4254.52 --> 4258.82] and that's intended for just general discussion about people who are using rust and then there's
[4258.82 --> 4263.70] internals.rustlang.org which is used to develop the language itself so we have those two things split
[4263.70 --> 4268.72] out just so that you know hello world questions don't interfere with like deep type theory questions
[4268.72 --> 4273.08] and you know you can pay attention to however much uh of those two things we have some people
[4273.08 --> 4277.60] that only read the internals discussion and some people that only read users obviously uh reddit does
[4277.60 --> 4282.94] exist although uh i'm a reddit hater so i try not to talk about it as much as possible um but the
[4282.94 --> 4288.04] reddit the rust subreddit is a shining example of all the things that reddit is not um it is also a
[4288.04 --> 4294.04] nice wonderful friendly welcoming place uh as opposed to the rest of reddit it seemed nice i was surprised
[4294.04 --> 4299.66] i was like this is kind of cozy in here i like the rust subreddit a lot i think people should also
[4299.66 --> 4304.08] realize that there's a bit of a clash of cultures in the rust community which is there's a bunch of
[4304.08 --> 4309.32] people who are writing rust because they were c++ hackers and they really want uh rust to be a better
[4309.32 --> 4314.04] c++ and then there's a bunch of people that came in because they're being enabled to be systems
[4314.04 --> 4319.38] programmers for the first time and so if you come in uh if you come into a conversation and you say
[4319.38 --> 4323.72] something from the perspective of being a higher level programmer and you get a bunch of stuff thrown at you
[4323.72 --> 4329.40] from the perspective of being a c++ hacker don't let don't let that discourage you i i've definitely
[4329.40 --> 4335.28] seen it happen occasionally maybe more than occasionally in some cases i would say assume
[4335.28 --> 4339.80] that the person who is talking to you is saying that because they feel passionately about wanting
[4339.80 --> 4344.80] rust to be a replacement for c++ but also assume that you don't need to understand necessarily right
[4344.80 --> 4349.64] away everything that they're saying in order to be a effective rust programmer and and importantly you
[4349.64 --> 4353.50] might have some insights on the ergonomics of the thing that's being discussed that a person who
[4353.50 --> 4358.84] is who is so used to the pain and suffering of c++ might not be able to see when we originally
[4358.84 --> 4363.92] pitched cargo none of the hardcore c++ crowd believed that they would be using it and by now
[4363.92 --> 4368.62] they're all basically using it right they're depending upon it yeah yeah so both of these sort
[4368.62 --> 4373.44] of groups we sort of have three camps in the rust world there's the like functional people the dynamic
[4373.44 --> 4377.94] programming people and the c++ people and all three of them have different like pros and cons to offer
[4377.94 --> 4382.28] each other in terms of their perspective and experience so it's been pretty cool to see those three
[4382.28 --> 4390.70] groups sort of coalesce um so last week we had zach zapala on the show he's the ceo of spark.io it's an
[4390.70 --> 4396.92] open source hardware company doing dev kits for wi-fi and cellular um that's episode 150 if you're
[4396.92 --> 4401.90] interested but in the post show we told him we're talking with you guys this week and he was quite
[4401.90 --> 4409.10] excited about rust and he was kind of hypothesizing on uh embedded rust and getting excited about that
[4409.10 --> 4415.60] in fact he pointed us to a project called zinc yep which is an experimental attempt to write an arm stack
[4415.60 --> 4420.76] according to them um we'll link that up in the show notes as well we want to kind of look at the future
[4420.76 --> 4426.14] right now you know there's a we're at 1.0 beta and we've talked about what all that means but i'd like to
[4426.14 --> 4433.30] take a chance to let you guys kind of prognosticate what you see rust doing going forward what you know
[4433.30 --> 4438.98] little niches will it um disrupt and where will it play well and where won't it so maybe start with
[4438.98 --> 4446.18] you and then steven can take a shot as well so i can give my my wistful hopes for the future uh which
[4446.18 --> 4452.62] is i think rust is pretty awesome because the ownership system means that most code that you write
[4452.62 --> 4458.38] actually only cares about the abstract notion of reference and not exactly how it was allocated
[4458.38 --> 4462.38] that's like a core concept of rust so i could definitely imagine in the future having a world