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[1978.30 --> 1985.04] docker is architected today is there's a central daemon that runs on every server okay running is root on |
[1985.04 --> 1990.86] your server and then when you type docker run it's actually an http client talking to this this daemon |
[1990.86 --> 1996.02] locally over http or the daemon can be remote too and that's one of the like more clever things of |
[1996.02 --> 2001.76] docker is you can easily like have your osx go binary push over to a docker daemon that's on a |
[2001.76 --> 2006.90] remote host or on a virtual machine on your laptop okay so that's clever and that's nice from a |
[2006.90 --> 2011.90] ease of use perspective but the problem is is when you have a daemon running as root on your server |
[2011.90 --> 2017.72] that one has an http interface like i think again sysadmin 101 here is do we run our web servers |
[2017.72 --> 2023.42] as root on a server you know like no okay and then the second piece is anything that talks to the |
[2023.42 --> 2027.80] internet should we run that as root so something that like downloads an image and runs and you know |
[2027.80 --> 2032.00] downloads an image or uploads an image so that thing be running as root no and kind of the whole |
[2032.00 --> 2036.10] architecture of the way docker is built is around the central daemon that kind of has all the |
[2036.10 --> 2041.02] functions of docker in it so yes part of that daemon that's running has something that |
[2041.02 --> 2048.42] the downloads and or that runs a container and that's great um we just being like unix guys that |
[2048.42 --> 2053.04] care about security need it to be refactored such that those are individual actual applications |
[2053.04 --> 2058.34] that run so we can invoke them with like different privileges and different users uh to get the |
[2058.34 --> 2063.78] security model more correct okay and and uh and to do that you'd effectively have to rewrite docker |
[2063.78 --> 2068.86] because you have to break apart this whole http client to like daemon thing um that's going on |
[2068.86 --> 2074.56] uh and so that's that's why we're like hey let's just start from from scratch uh because it it's |
[2074.56 --> 2078.92] just it's actually like the model is totally different in our world what you would do if you |
[2078.92 --> 2084.72] wanted an http interface is you'd write a little service that's like a http kind of uh it's an |
[2084.72 --> 2091.38] alternative to ssh on your server that speaks http uh and json and when you hit that it probably talks |
[2091.38 --> 2098.16] to like d bus and tell systemd the init system to invoke a container and run it um or if you want it |
[2098.16 --> 2102.56] to download an image it would tell systemd to to download you know to run a process as an |
[2102.56 --> 2107.68] unprivileged user uh and and download an image maybe it just uses curl to download you know it doesn't |
[2107.68 --> 2113.78] need to have a fancy go binary something you know it it's like your composability is what is the way we |
[2113.78 --> 2119.44] architected rocket to be so you can use it to build systems but anyway yes if docker was for instance |
[2119.44 --> 2125.72] to clean up their security issues refactor docker into a bunch of individual components that could |
[2125.72 --> 2131.20] be used differently and then have an open standard that was interoperable with projects outside of |
[2131.20 --> 2136.22] docker itself well now it starts to become a lot more like chrome and firefox because they're you |
[2136.22 --> 2142.06] know they're they're roughly the same uh then in that case yeah and hopefully you know bringing up |
[2142.06 --> 2147.68] issues uh like you are here allows them to uh bring those problems to light and then address them |
[2147.68 --> 2151.88] uh in their software right and i think they got the message loud and clear with rocket and we've |
[2151.88 --> 2157.24] seen them um like kind of start going down the right path and again what we feel is the right path |
[2157.24 --> 2163.54] is all just an objective you know opinion right um but the um you know they i think they're they're |
[2163.54 --> 2168.04] going down the path of making it more composable and really fixing their security thing and i i do find |
[2168.04 --> 2174.70] it unfortunate that like we weren't able to do this sort of as a as an effort together we you know that's not |
[2174.70 --> 2179.00] without trying it's not like we never tried we tried for you know multiple years actually and |
[2179.00 --> 2183.36] then eventually decided well we just need to go our own way to get it get it the way we need it which |
[2183.36 --> 2189.82] you know i think um i think is also a very hacker way to go yeah well in the hacker world we would we |
[2189.82 --> 2195.34] would tend to fork but it sounds like forking in itself was another decision you guys didn't want to |
[2195.34 --> 2201.40] make again because the model is so yeah different we would have had to essentially rewrite the fork |
[2201.40 --> 2206.24] at which point it's like uh but i just write a new thing and might as well get some of the |
[2206.24 --> 2212.72] security primitives right because that's also pretty core to the architecture too um so we just we we |
[2212.72 --> 2217.74] built it like from scratch because it was easier than forking gotcha i guess it's kind of where my |
[2217.74 --> 2224.22] question that i lost by the way uh on there was more like you know docker was is sort of synonymous |
[2224.22 --> 2229.90] with containerization they sort of you know coined the term or coined the name not so much the term but |
[2229.90 --> 2236.16] you know kind of made it popular they popularized it for sure right and and so you've got this you |
[2236.16 --> 2242.08] know non-standard way to make a container and core west sort of being built around this container |
[2242.08 --> 2247.64] world you know not running anything that's not a container basically um and i was just wondering |
[2247.64 --> 2254.26] i guess what your thoughts were and this may be sort of awkwardly placed in the conversation but |
[2254.26 --> 2259.40] what your thoughts were on their change of business model when they went from doc cloud |
[2259.40 --> 2265.62] to docker and sort of built their new business model around it whereas with core os you know you |
[2265.62 --> 2271.38] started off with the idea of how you were going to build core os from a monetization standpoint how |
[2271.38 --> 2276.02] you were actually going to build a company around it and as you mentioned before providing you know |
[2276.02 --> 2280.78] free update services and community service as part of your business model like sort of buffered in |
[2280.78 --> 2285.14] what what the difference was their model versus the way you went and how that might have could have |
[2285.14 --> 2292.98] played differently to to containers as a whole i'm really not sure how to answer that i mean their |
[2292.98 --> 2296.76] business model is their business model i don't think it's even that's why i had a hard time phrasing |
[2296.76 --> 2301.36] the question yeah i don't think i don't think it's played out yet on what their business model is it's not |
[2301.36 --> 2307.88] that clear right now it appears to be kind of a github like thing for hosting containers um i assume |
[2307.88 --> 2313.44] there'll be more um you know down the road on that um so i don't know i can't really comment on their |
[2313.44 --> 2319.54] business model all i know is the way like our company wants to build open source software is we want to |
[2319.54 --> 2324.42] build open source components that are freely reusable and that helps companies sort of run their |
[2324.42 --> 2329.14] infrastructure in this this new way and that we intend to build commercial products that take advantage |
[2329.14 --> 2334.02] of this transition to this new way of running infrastructure and help companies get there faster by buying our |
[2334.02 --> 2342.42] commercial solutions so let's change focus over to this uh app container specification um this is |
[2342.42 --> 2348.48] seems like a call to arms uh for the community anybody who's interested and invested into containers |
[2348.48 --> 2357.02] and rocket of course is the command line tool that implements um the specification can you speak more |
[2357.02 --> 2363.26] about specification what's in there what's not in there um who owns it that kind of stuff app container |
[2363.26 --> 2369.52] is an awesome piece of tech if if you're into in all this container stuff and want to get really |
[2369.52 --> 2374.14] nerdy with it definitely go read the specification it's really cool it's a really really cool piece |
[2374.14 --> 2380.60] of tech um and uh and so what we did is we talked to kind of everybody that's in the container space |
[2380.60 --> 2385.46] and got their feedback on what would be ideal and then brandon who's a very talented engineer you know |
[2385.46 --> 2392.00] spent a lot of time refining it um but there's three components to it there's an image format |
[2392.00 --> 2398.18] itself which is essentially a gpg signed tarball with some metadata i mean simplifying it but but |
[2398.18 --> 2404.28] that's that's what it is um and then there's a the the runtime itself so you can't just define the |
[2404.28 --> 2409.04] image you have to define the environment that the image runs in uh in order to have real you know |
[2409.04 --> 2414.88] consistency and portability um some of the things that i think are really cool in the in the runtime |
[2414.88 --> 2420.66] are um you know one problem with containers is how do you give them state like to start up how do you |
[2420.66 --> 2424.20] essentially give your containers arguments and there's kind of three different ways to do that |
[2424.20 --> 2428.78] there's environment variables or a config drive where you like have a directory that has config |
[2428.78 --> 2435.30] variables written down to disk or the the third way is a metadata service and that's what like amazon |
[2435.30 --> 2441.06] and and kind of the cloud providers use app containers runtime specifies a metadata service |
[2441.06 --> 2447.14] um for for doing that which is again how the cloud providers kind of done it and then the thing |
[2447.14 --> 2452.70] where we moved everybody forward that no cloud has done at all today is we give every uh every |
[2452.70 --> 2457.84] container that runs an identity uh which means on the metadata service there's an endpoint that you |
[2457.84 --> 2463.02] can post data to and get a signed version back so it's like every container has a little mini hsm |
[2463.02 --> 2468.46] uh built into it um and again from a security perspective the key to good security is giving |
[2468.46 --> 2474.10] everything running in your environment a strong cryptographic identity um and and just like etcd we want to |
[2474.10 --> 2480.48] make these more complicated topics easy you know we we essentially built a tiny little hsm into the |
[2480.48 --> 2485.14] metadata service uh for the runtime and things like this it's like yes let's just move state-of-the-art |
[2485.14 --> 2492.54] forward um and help people more easily build secure systems um so there's the image format the runtime and |
[2492.54 --> 2498.98] then the image discovery specification so one of the novel things of docker is how tightly integrated |
[2498.98 --> 2505.10] it is with the hub which is the place where you host and share your docker containers um and that's a |
[2505.10 --> 2513.76] docker inc ran service the way we did the um the image discovery and download for a rocket and an app |
[2513.76 --> 2519.64] container is it borrow some concepts from the go programming language where essentially you can |
[2519.64 --> 2527.86] federate it across the dns namespace um where the image is hosted so if i went if i said rocket run |
[2527.86 --> 2536.58] coreos.com slash etcd there's a convention for for discovering using dns um how how to find and |
[2536.58 --> 2542.58] download and run that um that uh image which means it's truly distributed and federated because you |
[2542.58 --> 2548.20] know everybody can do dns however they want um and that that we think is also a pretty kind of |
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