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**Carlisia Thompson:** Do you have stats that you can share for how many projects use one or the other? |
**Ed Muller:** The vast majority of them use Godep. There are though users of Govendor and then GB; so as rankings, the vast majority is just Godep and then Govendor and GB. Part of that is just historical, because before the vendor experiment, if you wanted to do dependency management you basically used Godep. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Yeah, that was what I was gonna lead into as well - the question becomes how much of that is historical, because many of the other ones are new kids on the block in comparison. Godep has been around much longer than Govendor and GB. And is Glide the newest one? |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Glide's not the newest one by a long shot. There's probably been 30 edits since Glide came out. |
**Ed Muller:** Yeah, I occasionally have conversations with authors of new ones, and I'm like "Great, it looks like you solved the 80%. Now here is the rest of the 80% problems that you're gonna run into. Have fun!" |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Good luck with that... |
**Erik St. Martin:** It's hard, because I feel like there's no perfect solution, right? It's like there's things I love about each of these tools and there's things I can't stand either. I think I have to end up with the one that I dislike the least. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Does anybody have any insights as to the states of resolution on this issue? Is vendoring something that's going to be solved soon, or it's not on the plate? I haven't been following, but it's important enough... |
**Ed Muller:** Well, there is a channel in Slack where myself, Daniel Theophanes, who's the author behind Govendor, some people from Glide kind of discussing some stuff and it's free for anybody to join. I haven't participated too much in it recently, but I know they are working towards some metadata standards. Daniel ... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Is anybody from the Go Language Team in there? |
**Ed Muller:** Not that I'm aware of. My understanding - and it hasn't changed, really - is that the Go Team was like "Here's Vendor. We're gonna let the ecosystem solve the hard part of the problem." |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Yeah, I think a good addendum to that though is the fact that the Go Team is listening very carefully to the issues that people are having in the real world. Andrew Gerrand has asked that we do a discussion at GopherCon on the Hack Day, so there's gonna be a room where people can come in and talk ab... |
I know that they acknowledge that the vendor directory isn't a full solution. I think they would like us as a community to come together and help them make a plan or come together and offer a solution; perhaps one with code would be even better. But yeah, they are listening. |
**Erik St. Martin:** \[08:06\] I think it's a valid point too, because how much time do we want the Go Team invested in working on vendors stuff, instead of things like compile times and performance and things like that? Especially when we're still kind of eeling around blindly. There hasn't been consensus on "This is ... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** I have a strong opinion. Would you like me to share it? |
**Erik St. Martin:** Sure. |
**Ed Muller:** Yes, please. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Look, Brian has a strong opinion again. |
**Erik St. Martin:** We need a better reason for you to get beat down at GopherCon. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** \[laughs\] All of the new languages that have come out recently - I'm talking about Nim, Rust, Crystal... What's the one I really like...? |
**Erik St. Martin:** Pony? |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Pony, thank you. All of the new languages that I've look at recently have this problem solved from the gate, and Go does not. And it's very frustrating to see these baby languages with much smaller adoption rates than Go have this problem completely solved. Now, I'm not saying that their solutions a... |
Dependency management is a big deal, and repeatable builds is a big deal. I feel like we've been hung out to dry on it, and I think the community needs to come together and not create 30 solutions; I think the community needs to create one good solution, or Google needs to create that solution, or at least foster that ... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** I was thinking the same thing, along those lines. The Go Language Team is part of the community, and it's sort of odd that there's a group of people working on a solution without any input or feedback from the Language Team. Are they aware that this is happening, or...? |
**Erik St. Martin:** Well, there's been a discussion with the Go Team surrounding vendoring, but I think that they were... I think that their opinion/standpoint has been that it's not part of the language itself, it's part of the ecosystem. I think that's why they've stayed mostly out of it, but I think that there was ... |
I think that the Go Team is probably overwhelmed with stuff, and this is probably the least of their worries, which sounds bad to say. Maybe I'll get the beatdown from Brian for saying that. \[laughter\] |
**Brian Ketelsen:** No, I don't disagree. I think they have a million things to do. I just think that as a community we need to come together and solve this sooner rather than later, before it really starts to dampen the adoption that Go is getting now. Because I think Go has great traction, and it will only get better... |
**Erik St. Martin:** Agreed. I think as a community we need to... I think we're just to used to everybody pointing the fingers towards the Go Team like they need to solve it. I think that's not the whole nature of the open source community either. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** No, and we all recognize that the Go Team is a small group of people in Google that are generally working for Google's best interests, but graciously sharing the Go programming language with the rest of us, and nobody faults them - at least I hope nobody faults them for taking care of Google first. ... |
**Ed Muller:** \[12:12\] I can't really put words in the Go Team's mouth... I think I understand some of their motivations. I also think they don't run into some of the same problems internally using Go that other companies do, that don't have the Go Team down the hall, or in the lunch cafeteria, or things like that. |
But one thing I would say is if you are somebody who is frustrated by vendor, please don't make your own tool; we have enough of them. Find another tool. |
**Erik St. Martin:** +1... |
**Ed Muller:** Read that codebase. Submit PRs. Fix problems. It doesn't have to be Godep. Godep is far, far, far from perfect. But pick one of them and back a horse. Don't worry if you're not right in the end; I don't know if there's a right or wrong... But yeah, please don't make your own. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Ed, I don't remember if you said the name of the channel where this conversation is happening... |
**Ed Muller:** It's called \#vendor in Gopher Slack. |
**Erik St. Martin:** So you were talking about how the 20% is still left unsolved. What do you see as some of those issues that still need to be figured out? |
**Ed Muller:** I think the biggest thing that a lot of the tools punt down the road, Godep included, is actual upgrade... Like, actually helping the user upgrade their deps and manage versions. A lot of them don't tackle dependencies for libraries per se. The old adage - if there can be an old adage - in Go is, "A libr... |
So there's not a lot of people - although it is gaining traction recently - for SemVer tags for different releases. That was one of the things I really wanted to ask in the survey, for instance. |
**Erik St. Martin:** So when you talk about semantic version, you're kind of talking in the spirit of, say, Bundler for Ruby, where you define your dependencies plus a specific version, or at least a major-minor release, or something along those lines? |
**Ed Muller:** I'm of the opinion that for libraries you absolutely need to specify some constraints on versions, especially over time. For your application, I am less interested in specifying specific versions and looking for the lock, because that's the only way to get truly repeatable builds. Also, I don't understan... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Exactly. |
**Ed Muller:** Or being DDoSed. |
**Erik St. Martin:** And some of the other stuff too is that I feel some of that stuff comes as part of the code review. When you get into bigger environments, there's no reason you shouldn't be auditing these libraries before using them, before you put them on your production systems where they have access to your dat... |
**Ed Muller:** \[16:14\] Yeah, totally. Actually, it's been a topic of discussion with my other Heroki this week, a lot of which don't... Heroku is a big company at this point by startup standards, and we're part of an even bigger company, so there are people who do lots of Node and Python, Ruby... Pick a language, we ... |
**Erik St. Martin:** Yeah, I'm not too familiar with the Node ecosystem. Is it typical for the way they package their stuff to not check in vendor? |
**Ed Muller:** That's my understanding. You run an npm install... Again, my knowledge of Node itself is probably about your level as well. |
**Erik St. Martin:** So in this whole left-pad thing - it probably helped with the check-in vendor thing. |
**Ed Muller:** That's a gentleman who removed all of his... |
**Erik St. Martin:** Yeah... |
**Ed Muller:** I think that's part of what helped motivate that. |
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