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**Erik St. Martin:** Everything sounds good when everything's working, when the golden path works. It's beautiful. |
**Ed Muller:** Yeah, it's great. I mean... Other complaints I get for not checking in vendors are like, "Oh, it makes your gifs messy" and I'm like, "But those are your dependencies. They're running with your code, they are part of your code." I think it was Brian who said, "I wanna see those too during your code revie... |
**Erik St. Martin:** And even for failures, right? Something changed and you don't understand why you're noticing a new failure in production. All you did was upgrade say one library and make one other minor change, right? You don't know what changed in the library to understand why now you're getting socket connection... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Well, another core issue is that just the idea of semantic versioning isn't defined for Go, and I think it was Dave Cheney maybe a year ago who wanted to start off this whole process by saying, "Maybe the first thing that we need to do is define what's a minor patch in a Go library, what's a minor v... |
**Ed Muller:** I'd like to introduce a data point in here from the survey. Of 2,221 responses, the question of "Do you tag releases using SemVer tags?", 41% say yes, and 58% say no. |
**Erik St. Martin:** So most people aren't versioning their libraries. |
**Ed Muller:** The vast majority aren't. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** \[19:53\] But let me see if I understand. Right now is there anything that we can do with those versionings? Because if it's no, I see the point of people not using it, and I think that more people would do it if there was a function for it. |
**Ed Muller:** It is a little bit of a chicken and the egg, because if the tools don't have the tags to use, then you're not necessarily gonna spend time working on those feature sets, and vice versa, if you don't have tools that use some of them, theoretically why should I bother? Which is another thing I'd like to po... |
**Erik St. Martin:** It's similar to the Go 1 promise - it's social. They've agreed not to change the API. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Well, it's social with teeth, though. There is a script that runs in all.bash that guarantees that there aren't any breaking changes to that Go 1 contract. So nothing's gonna get committed to master or tip without passing that test. I can't remember which of the new languages I saw recently, but the... |
**Ed Muller:** Yeah, my pie in the sky, perfect tool would use introspection to determine whether something is at least API compatible or not with the version you have, and then when it detects the change can say, "Here's my last known tagged version .matches. What are you using right now? Do you wanna continue upgradi... |
**Erik St. Martin:** We've got Scott in the GoTime FM channel here getting all Inception on us. He said, "Your dependency management tool is another dependency." So what do we use to manage that dependency? \[laughter\] |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Who guards the custodians? What's the land key custodian? Who watches the watchers? |
**Erik St. Martin:** Right. Another question we had in Slack is "Why did these other languages get vendoring out of the gate right, and how?" I don't know if any of us have answers to that. I think it's similar to kind of Go started out of the gate with concurrency in mind, right? It's just that kind of nature where yo... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** \[23:48\] Well, I think especially the smaller languages and the more recent ones all feel the pain that we as an industry have been kind of growing into over the last couple years and wisely knew out of the gate if they didn't have a solution to this there would be an issue, and maybe some of them ... |
**Ed Muller:** Yeah, if you can make a Go path... I mean, if you're gonna check in an entire Go workspace, then you just check out your stuff and commit them; you don't need it. What's there is there, and what's used is used, and it's tracked. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Alright, I think we're about halfway through the episode. I'm sure we probably don't wanna talk dependency management the whole thing - we probably could, theoretically, but do we want to? |
**Brian Ketelsen:** My blood pressure's going up. This is not good. |
**Erik St. Martin:** I do wanna hear about Go Heroku though, if you don't mind chatting with us about that for a few... Both in support for Go and Heroku's own internal usage of Go. |
**Ed Muller:** So, support of Go - Go has been unofficially supported for a very long time. Keith Rarick, a former engineer, wrote the Buildpack, wrote Godep initially, at least partially, so that he could run his Go code on Heroku. That Buildpack eventually became what we have now. |
Last year I was given an opportunity inside to help make Go a formally supported language. What that means is if you file a support ticket and you have a Go application, myself and others can help you with that application, other than going "That's not a supported language. Have you read the docs? Is it something with ... |
**Erik St. Martin:** Do you have a lot of Go customers? |
**Ed Muller:** It's actually the smallest percentage language of overall revenue or even active users, but it is growing faster than most, except for Node. |
**Erik St. Martin:** That's interesting. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Do you think that's based on Heroku's position in the market? It seems like Heroku's biggest customer-facing feature is writing websites or delivering websites, as opposed to deeper service-type things. And websites really aren't the biggest strength of Go. |
**Ed Muller:** No, they're not. Most of our Go customers are writing API services; that's the code they deploy. They don't write a website, or the Go version of a Rails app, or anything like that. They also are commonly doing it in conjunction with other Heroku apps that are written in Ruby or something else, and they ... |
**Erik St. Martin:** Okay, so customers are kind of moving more polyglot, where they're kind of augmenting their Rails apps with more Go apps, more than it is customers deploying sole Go apps. |
**Ed Muller:** As a general rule yes, but not exclusively. |
**Erik St. Martin:** \[27:59\] That's interesting. Sorry, I cut you off when you were going off onto the internal usage of... I was just kind of curious about the growth of Go customers. |
**Ed Muller:** It's been good, it's been steady. My job is partially to help continue that growth, not only just in Heroku, but also just - well, making sure that Heroku's a good place to run Go apps. So if anybody here is listening to this and you would like to use Heroku for deploying a Go app but you don't, for some... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** I'm happy to give Heroku a glowing recommendation. We run a big web app plus API at Heroku at my day job, and it is just fantastic support, great service, everything works wonderfully, and it's so nice to be able to use that Heroku CLI tool to get logs immediately, roll back, deploys are a dream. So... |
**Ed Muller:** That's a great review. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** 100% Go. I'm here for you, man. |
**Ed Muller:** Cool. Inside of Heroku... Large portions of the platform have actually been somewhat rewritten in Go. For instance, if you git push Heroku Master, the Git server behind that is written in Go, the thing that actually executes your slug-building. So that's what you see when you see language detected Go and... |
All logs from dynos are moved to the log router, which is still written in Erlang, but that process that actually handles the batching and delivery, that's Go. Portions of our new private spaces offering, which is basically Heroku in a VPC - not your VPC that you bring to us, but a VPC that we create for you on Amazon;... |
If you're a fan of our dashboard metrics, that's Go. The backend for that is all Go, the front end is obviously Node and other frontend technologies. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Do you have more...? Continue please, I don't wanna interrupt. |
**Ed Muller:** No, I was trying to think of what else... I feel like I'm missing some important parts, but... |
**Erik St. Martin:** That's all? \[laughter\] |
**Carlisia Thompson:** What I wanted to ask is are these rewrites, or majority rewrites, or majority new things...? |
**Ed Muller:** It's a mix; I'd probably say 60/40 rewrites, because for instance git push Heroku Master, that was a combination I think of some Twisted evented code at some point. If you're not familiar with Twisted, it's a Python thing, plus some other stuff. |
The slug builder portion was Ruby; all of API was just Ruby at one point. System metrics, I think we used Collecti at one point. The log processes, that's new; the metrics stuff, that's new. Some of the stuff they're doing in APIs, not necessarily rewrite, but new functionality that they're kind of slotting in unbeknow... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** \[32:15\] I have a sense that the whole internet is being rewritten in Go. |
**Ed Muller:** If it were up to me, +1... \[laughter\] But as I said though, Heroku is a place - we call ourselves Heroki, so if I've said that already, you understand what I am talking about. You'll find somebody at Heroku who likes any language that's probably out there right now. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Challenge accepted. |
**Ed Muller:** Heroku has a champion for it. We have contributors to Crystal who work here. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Crystal looks pretty awesome, by the way. We need to have an episode just on all these new languages, because I love them. |
**Ed Muller:** Yeah, there's some interesting things about a lot of these. Crystal I've probably looked at more than anything, but that's mainly because I was a Ruby person for a number years. But yeah, some of these other languages are looking pretty good, too. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** While we're talking about Go at Heroku, we can't forget Doozer. |
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