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**Bryan Liles:** Yeah. If I were to write a book, this is what I would write a book about. The neat thing is that what I'm talking about translates well to programming, specifically Go, but it also translates to everywhere else in life. If you want to have a religion of Bryan, that's what it is. It's not my old religio... |
Actually, that's a great segue into something else that I wanted to talk about, where a lot of people know me from. About 8-9 years ago I did a talk about testing. I'm actually really interested in testing as a theory. I don't think that just having tests makes your code any better, but I do think that the act of testi... |
I had this talk that was a sidebar talk at this conference, and he said "You have ten minutes. Make it good." I said, "Alright." So I went back to my slides and I put an F-bomb on every other slide. And not because I have a particularly bad mouth - actually, I kind of think that I don't have a bad mouth - but what the ... |
What I happened to be talking about was not politics or anything crazy like that, it was testing. I knew this was gonna resonate, and it still resonates 8-9 years in. When people come working with me now, they're like "I know of you because you did Test all the effin' time." And I'm like, "That's crazy! But do you real... |
\[32:06\] I'm not telling you to do TDD all the time; I really don't care, it's not my code, you don't work for me. What I'm saying is that I want you to have those opinions, and I'm giving you the field to go build those opinions. I think that's been my method over these years, and that's what when you see these talks... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** That's interesting. When I wrote my talk for abstractions I wasn't trying to convey information, I was trying to convey my feeling about the outcome of a particular technology. It's exactly what you just said. I didn't want people to learn about the subject that I talked about, I wanted people to un... |
**Bryan Liles:** Yes. You know, I've used that. Just recently I spoke of abstractions as well. I didn't go into it, but really what I was talking about during that whole entire talk was a finite state machine, but I wasn't using those words. I was just talking about it, about what it allowed me to do, what this code al... |
And I'm getting older, I don't like all the hip things anymore, but I will say that I do know developers, and when we learn to talk to developers in a language they can understand - and it could be sometimes really technical, from a paper - I can't read papers, they make me fall asleep - but also to a very light confer... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** This is a good time for us to take a quick break and talk about our sponsor today, which is Backtrace. |
**Break:** \[34:39\] |
**Erik St. Martin:** Awesome. I actually remembered you from TAFT too, Bryan, when we met at GopherCon. How can you forget that video...? |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Same here. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** It's funny, because I didn't remember TAFT, I remembered Smartacus \[35:55\] I spent so much time reading Bryan's blog posts about testing... |
**Erik St. Martin:** That's true too, yeah... |
**Bryan Liles:** \[36:01\] Yeah, I used to blog. You know, this day Twitter killed the blog star... \[laughter\] I really would love to blog again, and I know a lot of people say that, but I'm just not in that mood anymore. But I love to share. I do love to share, it's one of my favorite things. |
**Erik St. Martin:** That's kind of why I like the podcast thing. The writing thing... I've never been a very good writer, and I struggle with organization and I feel like I revise it too many times, and then I just give up on finishing the post, but I like the freeform nature of podcasting, where you kind of just get ... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** It's a nice way to share all of my opinions without having people be able to comment on my blog either. \[laughter\] |
**Erik St. Martin:** They will comment on their blogs, though. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** That's right. |
**Erik St. Martin:** So you've been traveling a lot, Bryan, doing some talks at a number of conferences. You're doing LinuxCon, Velocity... I know you were at Abstractions... |
**Bryan Liles:** I did all of those... This year I think I spoke maybe 10 or 15 times, and then I have something coming up next week. I'll be in Buffalo at a conference called CodeDaze. They're allowing me to give a keynote, which means I won't talk about anything specific; and I will not. Then, there's always the big ... |
The reason I do this - and I've been thinking about this over the last minute - is years ago I heard something about the 10x developer. I don't know why it really grinds my gears and hurts my ears; I'm trying to be a 10x developer, and what I'm trying to do is be 10x - raise the group's productivity by 10x. Whether I'm... |
And then you know what? At the end of the day, give me credit for it; and then we all win. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Amen! Preach it. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Yeah, the 10x thing isn't actually as crazy now as it was. I remember when everybody wanted a 10x developer... I feel like even 10x people are not 10x people, right? You're 10x people for three days a week, and then you're a X/2 person for the other two. It's impossible to sustain that level of ene... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Did you just call me a half-ass developer? |
**Erik St. Martin:** \[laughs\] Half X! |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Oh, half X. I misheard... \[laughter\] |
**Erik St. Martin:** This is a PG show, Brian. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** No, it doesn't have to be. |
**Bryan Liles:** I'm very PG. |
**Erik St. Martin:** I try to be... I think that comes with age. You start realizing that you don't sound professional or intelligent speaking those ways, and you only further other people talking that way. It's kind of contagious. You have people over and they're all swearing, so everybody else starts swearing. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Well, there are just so many better ways to get a point across than swearing, although I do agree - I don't remember who made the blog post, it might have been DHH... Somebody said recently about the science behind swearing and how it does cause you to instantly pay attention to that particular topi... |
**Bryan Liles:** \[40:15\] Well, that was the whole point of the "Test all the effin' time", because testing is boring inherently; no one wants to do it, especially not in Go. I could go back and forth about my perils of testing in Go, but I want people to do it and not feel that just because it's hard, to do it poorly... |
I think this is one of the things that the Ruby community got really well, is that, yeah, we had a whole bunch of testing frameworks, from RSpec to whatever else, but people thought about it. In Go, I think we dismissed it quite of quickly with the whole "no dependencies" movement, where we just didn't even think about... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Are you saying the test package in the standard library is not good enough and that we should be using others? |
**Bryan Liles:** How about this - I will say that it is not always good enough. I can compare two things, I can use DeepEquals, I can write out all that stuff, or I could, on other projects, like I do in DO, control, CTL or whatever you want to call it - what I do is I use the Testify package, and I use their mocking p... |
This is the fallacy of smart people - we like to think that whatever we think, as a smart person, is the smartest thing. But that's not true. It might be the smartest in this situation, but who can account for all situation? So I would rather say that, "Hey, you should try these things and find something that works for... |
I'm never gonna say who's right and who's wrong. I'll say that we should be more pragmatic about it, and not fall into dogma. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** Yeah, I like this philosophy of being pragmatic. Maybe because the Go community is relatively still new, there is a lot of purism and you're never sure if you should veer off the beaten path... So it's good to hear that message too, from experienced people. |
**Bryan Liles:** It's religion. You know, I like the concept of religions and I'm not anti-religious, I'm just not very religious myself. But I do feel that once you get on the soap box and start saying that we need to do it this way or that way, it's like the difference between Christianity, Judaism and Islam. There a... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** That's a very good point. In the Ruby and Ruby on Rails community they did an excellent job in bringing developers into the testing mentality, and I wanted to ask you where does the Go community stand, as far as you can tell, on the testing philosophy? You already gave some hints, but in more pra... |
**Bryan Liles:** \[43:45\] Well, I will tell you this - I can go to look at the github.com/stretchr/testify and I'm sure there's a lot of stars there. That alone says that there is a lot of things going on. But then you have the other integration-style testing things that are in Go. Yeah, they're a little bit weird - t... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Yeah, Ginkgo and Gomega. |
**Bryan Liles:** Yes. It's a little weird, but guess what? It works. And then you have another one that's kind of like Gomega, but they have the cool little web page inversion of it... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** GoConvey. |
**Bryan Liles:** I'm thinking more of an integration-style testing... What I'm saying is don't dismiss those; understand the reason why they exist and why somebody will sit down and spend all that time writing them, before saying you don't need that. That's the problem that I have with just "You should do it this one w... |
And you know what? Adding a test dependency on Testify or whatever else - is it a really big deal? Probably not. Not as a big deal as you actually making a big deal about using it. It's something that can happen. |
I hate to get lost between those kinds of differences, rather than "Hey, we're actually doing too many allocations" type things. When we get lost in the testing battle, we actually lose sight of what's important. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** It's funny, the Ruby community was so strong on testing; that was such a big message, such a big thing that came out of Ruby and Rails. And I didn't like testing in Ruby, and I didn't write tests in Ruby, and it wasn't until I came to Go where I actually learned to really enjoy testing. Now, I often... |
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