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[946.76 --> 950.40] On bare metal, you have some issues with the networking, but there's projects to solve that
[950.40 --> 955.54] you've got Kube router and you've got Metal LB and you've got others that solve that problem
[955.54 --> 955.94] for you.
[956.20 --> 958.74] It's interesting that you brought up Bosch and Cloud Foundry.
[958.82 --> 963.52] And for those who don't know, the way that Cloud Foundry was designed was that we had two
[963.52 --> 964.24] different products.
[964.60 --> 972.22] We had Bosch, which was sort of a competitor to Terraform and Ansible and Salt.
[972.54 --> 978.08] I think, I don't know this for sure, but I think it came right out of the Google's Borg.
[978.08 --> 980.48] It's like a rewrite of Borg, basically.
[980.66 --> 983.00] And it's very difficult to use.
[983.12 --> 988.28] But once you use it, like once you learn it, Stockholm syndrome kicks in and you start to
[988.28 --> 988.50] love it.
[988.56 --> 991.20] There's huge Bosch fanatics, right?
[991.34 --> 994.58] And Bosch was the tool that the operator used to deploy Cloud Foundry.
[994.68 --> 996.74] Very difficult to use, but very powerful.
[997.16 --> 1003.18] And Cloud Foundry was the interface that the operator then could present to the application
[1003.18 --> 1007.80] developers, which was basically a blatant ripoff of Heroku, which was a great model.
[1008.10 --> 1013.24] 12 factor build packs, all that stuff made it real easy for application developers.
[1013.70 --> 1014.58] But here's the interesting thing.
[1014.82 --> 1021.12] I refer to that as the great wall DevOps model, where Cloud Foundry allowed the operator to
[1021.12 --> 1028.58] serve the application developer well by giving the operator this beautiful wall that both sides
[1028.58 --> 1029.50] really appreciated.
[1029.50 --> 1033.48] The operator appreciated how easy it was to manage Cloud Foundry through Bosch and the
[1033.48 --> 1038.04] application developer appreciated how powerful it was for them to manage their application
[1038.04 --> 1039.34] through Cloud Foundry.
[1040.22 --> 1042.00] Kubernetes is entirely different from that, right?
[1042.08 --> 1047.52] Kubernetes is what I call the kumbaya DevOps model, where everybody has to know everything,
[1047.74 --> 1047.96] right?
[1048.32 --> 1052.06] Kubernetes doesn't have the concept of an operator versus an application developer.
[1052.06 --> 1058.68] At best, it gives you some tools where you can kind of build that using RBACs and stuff,
[1058.74 --> 1060.76] but that's really difficult to do.
[1061.22 --> 1064.12] And nobody knows quite where the line is supposed to be.
[1064.60 --> 1066.96] And so, yeah, so everybody does it differently, you know?
[1067.48 --> 1067.64] Yeah.
[1068.18 --> 1068.48] Okay.
[1068.98 --> 1071.32] So they do have YAML in common.
[1074.32 --> 1075.30] That's still around.
[1076.52 --> 1078.86] That's like still a paid, but maybe not for long.
[1078.94 --> 1079.30] Who knows?
[1079.38 --> 1079.72] We'll see.
[1079.72 --> 1080.12] Okay.
[1080.12 --> 1086.62] So what I'm taking away from this is that Kubernetes is everywhere and Teams, they need
[1086.62 --> 1090.08] Kubernetes because it's the easiest way to get something out there.
[1090.16 --> 1090.76] It's ubiquitous.
[1090.90 --> 1091.46] It's everywhere.
[1091.92 --> 1092.06] Yeah.
[1092.12 --> 1093.96] And it handles the complexity really well.
[1094.14 --> 1094.98] So you're right.
[1095.08 --> 1099.02] The 80 resource types plus all the custom ones that you can install.
[1099.12 --> 1101.06] And typically you get via CRDs.
[1101.28 --> 1101.46] Yeah.
[1101.58 --> 1103.52] You get even more and they get even more complicated.
[1103.52 --> 1109.56] It's a great way of modeling some really complex software, whether it's microservices, whether
[1109.56 --> 1111.30] it's stateful services.
[1111.30 --> 1115.50] And that's like, hmm, not fully, but it's getting there for sure.
[1115.90 --> 1120.12] I think there was like a maturity level that had to happen at the data services side as well.
[1120.12 --> 1122.54] Just understand that operating model.
[1122.54 --> 1123.88] It's not just ubiquitous.
[1124.02 --> 1125.92] It's just becoming the standard, right?
[1126.00 --> 1132.76] It's expected that if you're going to, as you said, model out your infrastructure, your
[1132.76 --> 1138.02] application infrastructure, then you're going to do it in YAML using Kubernetes objects, right?
[1138.02 --> 1139.26] So that you can deploy it anywhere.
[1139.48 --> 1143.48] And there are some really great projects in this Kubernetes ecosystem and in the bigger cloud
[1143.48 --> 1145.60] native ecosystem, which work well together.
[1145.60 --> 1152.06] But it's intricacy of finding the right combination of the objects or like the products that make
[1152.06 --> 1152.76] sense to you.
[1152.92 --> 1154.72] And that's where the complexity lies in.
[1154.86 --> 1158.84] So the kumbaya, anything goes and everything goes.
[1158.96 --> 1163.12] And by the way, there are teams for which a certain combination makes sense, which would
[1163.12 --> 1164.32] never work for other teams.
[1164.44 --> 1165.90] And that's what gives it the beauty.
[1166.02 --> 1166.76] Also the complexity.
[1167.28 --> 1168.54] It's building blocks, right?
[1168.62 --> 1170.90] The entire community is all about building blocks.
[1170.90 --> 1176.40] And if you have a large enough team that you can dedicate a couple of people to choosing
[1176.40 --> 1181.16] the right building blocks and wiring them all together and producing this really great
[1181.16 --> 1183.78] experience for your engineers, then that's great.
[1184.02 --> 1186.30] Do you think that teams would be better without Kubernetes?
[1186.70 --> 1186.96] Yeah.
[1187.24 --> 1193.26] I mean, again, it depends on the size of the team, but I'm going to just ballpark that 30%
[1193.26 --> 1198.34] ish of people who come to us saying, we're looking to embrace Kubernetes.
[1198.42 --> 1199.24] We're going to move to Kubernetes.
[1199.24 --> 1204.68] And we'd like your training or your help on the engineering side to get it done and to
[1204.68 --> 1205.24] get it done right.
[1205.50 --> 1211.00] About 30% of the time when people come to us asking for that, we try really hard to convince
[1211.00 --> 1211.74] them not to.
[1212.16 --> 1219.02] Because if you're a small startup, then unless you're doing something really complicated,
[1219.24 --> 1222.28] then it's just too much for you, right?
[1222.36 --> 1225.40] I mean, you're not focused on your own innovation.
[1225.40 --> 1229.14] Instead, you're focused on managing Kubernetes.
[1229.58 --> 1230.40] So here's the story.
[1230.62 --> 1235.46] When I was, I don't know, through most of my life, I've been a Linux user until around
[1235.46 --> 1237.90] 2006, I think it was.
[1238.26 --> 1241.44] And I used to run Linux on all kinds of hardware.
[1241.78 --> 1246.04] I ran, I was one of those geeks in college that had a small network of, you know, like
[1246.04 --> 1248.52] Sun and different servers and things like that.
[1248.52 --> 1252.60] And for the longest time, I ran Linux on my laptop as my daily driver.
[1253.16 --> 1259.42] And around 2006, I realized that I was spending 20% of my time trying to figure out how to
[1259.42 --> 1263.24] close my ThinkPad without the kernel panicking, right?
[1265.00 --> 1268.28] It's like about an hour a day, every day, you know?