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[1268.86 --> 1269.68] Doesn't want to sleep. |
[1270.00 --> 1270.72] Linux doesn't sleep. |
[1271.16 --> 1272.20] Yeah, it's just it. |
[1272.28 --> 1273.84] Yeah, it's always working for you, you know? |
[1274.28 --> 1277.74] And I just flipped the table, I bought a Mac, and I never looked back, right? |
[1278.02 --> 1282.10] To me, the analogy is that Kubernetes is that Linux on the laptop experience, right? |
[1282.16 --> 1286.78] There's always going to be problems, because you're always integrating two dozen different |
[1286.78 --> 1290.32] technologies to get a full Kubernetes system running. |
[1290.58 --> 1294.52] And it's fine if you have administrators there to focus on that task. |
[1294.52 --> 1298.50] But if you're, you know, a 10 person startup, that's not where you need to be. |
[1298.50 --> 1304.26] You should be on like Heroku or Fly.io or what's the other one? |
[1304.30 --> 1307.68] Nitrous or Google Cloud Run, Fargate, like any of those, right? |
[1307.86 --> 1308.04] Yeah. |
[1308.20 --> 1310.10] Are better choices than Kubernetes. |
[1310.38 --> 1316.70] The litmus that we give these people when they come to us is stay on these fully managed |
[1316.70 --> 1318.56] platforms for as long as you can. |
[1318.66 --> 1322.50] And every time an engineer says, we should really use Kubernetes for this, that, or the |
[1322.50 --> 1326.98] other, you say, no, we should stay within the confines of a 12-factor app, like as much |
[1326.98 --> 1327.94] as you can, right? |
[1327.94 --> 1332.46] You change your product definition so that you can stay within that confine, whatever |
[1332.46 --> 1338.46] you can do, until you really believe that you need to provision raw EC2. |
[1338.94 --> 1343.32] When an engineer says, look, this is an important feature, the only way we can get this feature |
[1343.32 --> 1347.10] done is if you give me the keys to AWS, because I need to provision some instances, we're going |
[1347.10 --> 1350.36] to configure those instances, we're going to run systemd on them, we're going to tie in |
[1350.36 --> 1353.42] all the logging and all the metrics into some sort of centralized system, we're going |
[1353.42 --> 1355.90] to have alerting and everything set up and all of that. |
[1355.90 --> 1358.32] That's when you say, no, no, no, no, no, no. |
[1358.40 --> 1365.00] We're never going to provision raw instances because Kubernetes is the future for all things |
[1365.00 --> 1369.22] cloud level, all things that would be infrastructure as a service. |
[1369.34 --> 1370.82] Instead, you should be using Kubernetes. |
[1371.12 --> 1372.34] That's the inflection point. |
[1372.34 --> 1387.74] This episode is brought to you by our friends at Incident.io. |
[1388.14 --> 1392.42] Every software team on the planet has to manage incidents and a very large percentage of those |
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[1410.34 --> 1412.90] Use the slash incident command to create and manage incidents. |
[1413.32 --> 1418.64] This command lets you share updates, assign roles, set important links, and more, all without |
[1418.64 --> 1419.92] ever leaving the incident channel. |
[1419.92 --> 1425.84] Each incident gets their own Slack channel plus a high-res dashboard at Incident.io with |
[1425.84 --> 1427.76] the entire timeline from report to resolution. |
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[1449.92 --> 1464.08] I think that you've heard this question many times before, and I still have to ask it. |
[1464.32 --> 1467.48] Do you think that Kubernetes would have been as popular and successful? |
[1467.82 --> 1468.70] Was it not for Docker? |
[1469.20 --> 1469.52] Yeah. |
[1469.70 --> 1470.56] Yeah, that's a great question. |
[1470.90 --> 1472.18] I mean, obviously, who knows? |
[1472.18 --> 1478.22] But from my point of view, I don't think Kubernetes would have gotten off the ground at all if |
[1478.22 --> 1481.94] it wasn't for Docker as a standard, right? |
[1482.14 --> 1484.06] We all know that Docker is a company. |
[1484.48 --> 1487.66] They had an opportunity and they just couldn't quite execute on it. |
[1487.84 --> 1489.02] So whatever. |
[1489.20 --> 1490.08] That is what it is. |
[1490.48 --> 1498.06] But the thing that Docker gave to the technology community is that standard of what it means |
[1498.06 --> 1499.06] to be a container. |
[1499.06 --> 1504.50] And we all know that there were containers before Docker, right? |
[1504.60 --> 1506.08] I mean, LXD, LXD. |
[1506.34 --> 1510.34] There was Solaris Zones, FreeBSD Jails, sort of, right? |
[1510.60 --> 1513.92] And things like Solaris Zones arguably were better, if I remember correctly. |
[1514.06 --> 1516.56] They ran separate kernels per container, right? |
[1516.78 --> 1524.00] But it was that standardization of how you create a container and what a container or how |
[1524.00 --> 1526.62] you create a container image and what a container image actually is. |
[1526.62 --> 1531.02] And that allowed tools like Kubernetes to flourish. |
[1531.48 --> 1532.50] So absolutely not. |
[1532.66 --> 1537.42] I don't think Cates would have been a thing without Docker at all. |
[1537.88 --> 1543.24] Which, I mean, I understand that Kubernetes inside Google was Borg and Omega, right? |
[1543.40 --> 1548.88] So obviously, it existed before Docker existed inside Google. |
[1548.88 --> 1550.14] But that's a completely different thing. |
[1550.14 --> 1555.30] In order to get community adoption, in order for this open source thing to flourish, if |
[1555.30 --> 1559.84] Kubernetes had been built as an open source product and had its own idea of what a container |
[1559.84 --> 1563.94] is and had this thing of you have to run these commands to generate an image and then we run |
[1563.94 --> 1566.20] it, I just don't think it would have gotten adoption at all. |
[1566.76 --> 1569.08] It wasn't just the standardization of Docker, too. |
[1569.18 --> 1573.74] It was also, frankly, I don't want to use the term hype because Docker is a very powerful |
[1573.74 --> 1575.14] and important technology. |
[1575.36 --> 1576.76] But there was a wave, right? |
[1576.92 --> 1581.28] Where people were just really excited about Docker and anything that embraced Docker got |
[1581.28 --> 1583.18] an immediate uplift because of that. |
[1583.26 --> 1585.58] And I think Kubernetes, you know, benefited from that. |
[1586.06 --> 1586.14] Yeah. |
[1586.48 --> 1591.80] I remember that age and period really well when you had to, like, run containers. |
[1591.98 --> 1593.24] Didn't matter how, didn't matter where. |
[1593.28 --> 1594.46] You just had to run containers. |
[1594.88 --> 1596.56] And Kubernetes wasn't a thing back then. |
[1596.56 --> 1598.86] So few people even knew what containers were, right? |
[1599.02 --> 1599.28] Exactly. |
[1599.42 --> 1599.84] They're like, what? |
[1599.96 --> 1600.46] Containers what? |
[1600.56 --> 1601.70] Like, why would you want containers? |
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